1936 Chrysler Airstream C-8 Convertible Restoration

[VW4X4]

Joe,  Are you going to be able to install the valve guides with the engine in the vehicle. The only way I know of, to get the old guides out, is to have them cut out on a machine.  I've never heard of this being done in the car.  Maybe there's a way. If so I would like to see how this is done. Installation would be another issue, being they are a press fit.  Valve guides are fairly generic, Length and bore.  A GOOD machine shop typically will cut the OD to force fit in the block.   I've see this to also to be true with the valve seats.   Again, I've never seen this done in the car...

  ERIc

Edited March 30, 2022 by VW4X4 (see edit history)

[Professor]

HI Eric,

 

I was planning on using LN2 to freeze the guide and then tap it out and,  use LN2 to freeze the new guide and tap the new guide in. I have not looked online to see what others typically do so I may be completely off base with my current plan.  I have done this before on Corvair heads and the valve guides virtually fall out, but the heads on a Corvair are aluminum and the guides are bronze, so my plan may not work with steel / steel.  If I have to pull the engine to remove the valve guides, then I will do it… I sure hope I don’t since the wear on the cylinders on this block are less than I can feel, and certainly too little to measure.  I suspect others here who have far more experience than I do at this will offer suggestions.  Working on a flathead is completely new to me… some things are the same such as lapping valves, but others may be substantially different.

 

Joe

 

5 hours ago, VW4X4 said:

Joe,  Are you going to be able to install the valve guides with the engine in the vehicle. The only way I know of, to get the old guides out, is to have them cut out on a machine.  I've never heard of this being done in the car.  Maybe there's a way. If so I would like to see how this is done. Installation would be another issue, being they are a press fit.  Valve guides are fairly generic, Length and bore.  A GOOD machine shop typically will cut the OD to force fit in the block.   I've see this to also to be true with the valve seats.   Again, I've never seen this done in the car...

  ERIc

 

[Professor]

Oh… and I found valve springs today so one more item off the checklist.  I need to order some retainers… but they are a dime a dozen so I don’t have any worries about finding them.

[Bloo]

How bad is the guide?

 

I have my doubts about the LN2, but cant wait to see whether it works. Typically using heat for steel on steel pressed items is useless on disassembly, but very useful on reassembly. There's too much heat transfer between the steel parts when they are assembled. It will be a great thing to know if LN2 works.

 

There is really no advantage to replacing the intake valves if they are good and have plenty of margin left, unless you are getting postwar metallurgy (or better) out of the deal. Even then, intake valves are not prone to failure.

 

[Piaras]

I would think that cooling the guide should work. Are the old guides iron or brass/bronze? Brass/Bronze will shrink about 60-70% more than iron.

Pierre

[maok]

Joe, I'd recommend pulling the engine out and working on it on a stand, this way you will do all the things you need to do in comfort and with less frustration.

[Piaras]

If there is need to heat the area to expand the bore, heat the whole block not just the area of the guide. If you only heat the area around the hole the expansion will be restrained by the cooler material around it and the expansion will go into the hole , making it smaller. This seems far fetched at first but this is how railroads handle welded rail that is miles long. It is restrained by the rail anchors and ties and so when it is heated by the sun it does indeed expand, but it gets taller, not longer. The same way hotter material surrounded by cooler material must go in, not out.

Pierre

[F&J]

Valve guide removal videos:

 

First one is flathead Jeep 4, but it shows one way to remove a guide if the cam & lifters are still in the block.  If the cam & lifter is there, the old guide cannot be pounded downwards instead, as it's too long before it hits the lifter.  One more thing on this Jeep guide dimensions; we don't know if the factory bored hole for your Chrysler guide is large enough for the tools' nut to be pulled up through that bore.

^^Some guides pull out easier that some other brands of cars.  If the lower nut won't fit up through the hole for the guide, some people have used a tap and then thread the inside of the entire guide, then use the threaded rod..  They can strip though, if the guide is stubborn,

 

 

Here next, is a YT video from Keith (he's also on this AACA resto forum), about removing Mopar flathead guides, but his method requires cam and lifters removed, but he shows how to make an air chisel pilot tool to ram them downwards. (a hammer will do)  I mention this video only because the 3rd video of Mopar guides, shows a very good way to "make room" so they can be rammed down "with the cam and lifters still in the engine."

 

 

 

.another Flat Mopar Vid: Below is perhaps your best way with cam/lifters still in, and especially if the old guides are very stubborn. (it's far easier to mash it downwards, than to pull a stubborn one upwards)

 

 I still say that the manifolds need to come off, unless like some brands of vintage cars, the inner fender (and then the tire) can be removed to get at the valve covers, keepers, room for valve spring compressor access, etc.  Your call, you'll know what needs doing when you go after the keepers to remove the valves.

 

I want to do a post at another time about the very negative issues of trying to use new valves on existing worn seats by only lapping, (without machine-grinding the valve seats properly).  It's going to take a lot more text (and thinking how to word it in clear terms).

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

[VW4X4]

5 hours ago, Professor said:

HI Eric,

 

I was planning on using LN2 to freeze the guide and then tap it out and,  use LN2 to freeze the new guide and tap the new guide in. I have not looked online to see what others typically do so I may be completely off base with my current plan.  I have done this before on Corvair heads and the valve guides virtually fall out, but the heads on a Corvair are aluminum and the guides are bronze, so my plan may not work with steel / steel.  If I have to pull the engine to remove the valve guides, then I will do it… I sure hope I don’t since the wear on the cylinders on this block are less than I can feel, and certainly too little to measure.  I suspect others here who have far more experience than I do at this will offer suggestions.  Working on a flathead is completely new to me… some things are the same such as lapping valves, but others may be substantially different.

 

Joe

 

 

Joe ,   Did you remove the valve springs and measure  how bad the valve guides are?  You may be surprised at the specs. 

Here's an engine I just did last year..... Guess what??..... This guide is still within specs.  and went back into service, running fine.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnylUADMloE

    Even if the guides are on edge, any attempt to remove the guides may end up in a failed attempt and damage the guide. Then the only recourse  would be  removing the engine.  This IMHO (IN My Honest Opinion) is like "spending a dollar to save a dime".  I big waste of time.  You could have put the engine back together with warn guides and expect to get good use out of it for a few more years at least ... May have to do a valve adjustment ever 5,000 miles because the seat would see a little more damage, but your saving the huge chore of complete engine rebuild.

When I was a kid we didn't have the  money to rebuild an engine.  We would take lots of engines a part,  fix just what was the main problem was and put everything back together, knowing a lot of things were still working but WAY out of specs.  Lots of those engines held up for years....

ERIC

[Randiego]

Joe,

A lot of good advice regarding the valves.  One posted that a source for pre war engine parts is Egge, out here in Los Angeles, California.  I absolutely  recommend them as they have rebuilt and supplied engine parts for our hobby for many many years.  I personally have had  them supply me pistons, and valves for my engine rebuilder here in San Diego County.  He rebuilt my 1936 Pontiac 6 cylinder engine.  We got not only the pistons, rings and valves, the crankshaft had to be cut as the previous owner abused the engine as a teen hotrodding the coupe.  So  I had to get differrent sized rod bearings.  The crank had two sizes as one journal was really scored.  But it all came out ok and the guys at Egge delivered.  

 

Going to the extent of the valve job that you are doing, I would, Joe, get the head magnafluxed and surfaced.  This will let you know if there was any "warp" in the head and if there are hairline cracks that you cannot see just by cleaning.  At operating temperature, small cracks can enlarge, allowing gasses or coolant to go where they are not supposed to be.  Not having this engine running, you do not know what issues will rear it's ugly head.  With the head off, you can address any of these problems while the engine is apart. 

 

Decking the block is usually done when the engine is in for rebuild.  I would clean off the top of the block (to the metal),  get a good  straight edge and check that the block is level.  If any daylight shows, that will let you know that the engine got hot and some deviation took place.  It is highly unlikely that the block is warped, but it is good to check.  With the head surfaced and a new gasket, the head will seal correctly.  Hopefully, you can lap grind the valves in the block to get a satisfactory seal.   My machinist, like me, is in his 70's.  He has a portable "seat cutter" that sits on top of the block and can cut new seats in the block without removal.  This portable machine was had by most all machine shops.  But all those "old heads" have either expired or retired.  Few machine shops theses days have that machine.  Check in your area, Joe.  If any of the seats look compromised, hopefully you can find one of the shops that has that portable seat cutter. 

 

As to the head bolt or stud that started to come out;   Remove the bolt/stud, clean the threads and re install it, using two nuts (tightened together) until it seats.  When the engine is rebuilt, the machinist will remove all the studs, boil the block and depending on the condition, replace the fastners if needed.

 

The picture is of my 1936 Plymouth P2 Touring sedan.  It has 73,000 original miles and the engine has not been rebuilt.  I cleaned it up, addressed the cooling issues.  I took off the water pump, thermostat  housing and radiator, pulled the cooling tube forward to the grill and cleaned up inside the engine block as best as I could without removing the engine.  I flushed the block multiple times using suitable engine block cleaner until  all the crud was removed.  I reinstalled the cooling tube, had the radiator boiled out and serviced, installed a new water pump, belt, replaced all the hoses, new cap and I have not had a cooling problem since. I also serviced the heater.  Rebuilt the fan switch, serviced the motor (dry, noisy bushings) and had the heater core boiled out and pressure tested.  

 

Chrysler's designs were a cut above Ford or GM's.  

 

From the sounds of things, Joe, you are on the right track.  I hope that you have a good machine shop near you who can help and advise you on your engine.

 

Good luck.

 

Randy

  

 

Good luck.

 

Randy 

[F&J]

Lapping versus grinding:

 

I tried to find videos showing the "first test cut" when using the old way of grinding seats with stones.  The first minor cut would have shown that used seats normally are no longer concentric at the sealing surface.  I did not find the first test cut on seats, but here is a quick video showing the beginning cut with a Valve Refacing Grinder.

 

I think I copied the link so it starts near the end of the 3.5 minute video so you won't get bored.  Look at the first views of the cutting and it proves that the actual worn sealing surface is no longer concentric.  A used "seat" in the block will be the same non-concentric wear patterns

 

This non-concentric issue is something that cannot be corrected perfectly by just hand lapping, without grinding first. Yes, if it's not really too bad and if there is slop in the guides, the valve will seal with just lapping, but like Edinmass often says: "tractor mechanics"😉

 

I have this same exact Sioux valve refacing machine that I found at a swap 2 decades ago for $75

 

 

I then tried to find a very short video to show why a 2 angle grinding of the seat is often needed.  That is when the 45 lap-line/contact area is (usually) too wide, or not centered on the mating valve face on it's 45 degree surface.   This pro shop only uses the old grinding stones if the block can't fit into his megabuck seat machine that uses metal cutters.    Stones once were the most used system for many decades, and still do the job perfectly,(albeit not for the modern era high volume shops.)

 

Some people use a 30 degree stone to narrow the 45 degree contact width like this shop did. Many others use a 15 degree as it is less likely to "cut too far, too quickly".  A 15 takes a bit more grinding to narrow the 45 contact width, so then it's a far less chance of going too far by mistake.

I use a very ancient Sioux seat grinding setup with lots of stone sizes and dozens of pilot arbors.  I bought it 30 years ago at a vintage tractor swap meet for $60

 

BTW, last summer after buying a load of flathead Ford parts from an engine builders estate, I ended up with two B&D valve seat grinder setups that I did not need.  I did not want to deal with ebay for much bigger bucks, nor deal with shipping/crating.  I put them on local C/L, buried in my ad for flathead Ford parts for only $40 each.  The 2 buyers were acting like they had hit the lottery, as they both had vintage engines and wanted to do their own work to learn new skills.

 

Pic below of one I put in the ad, but it's not showing the stone dressing fixture that both sets still had. EDIT. >>the dressing fixture did not show on my cropped file thumbnails.  It's now showing at the bottom of the pic below

Edited March 31, 2022 by F&J
adding (see edit history)

[Professor]

Thanks everyone!  This is like a one-stop-shop for valve information.  Perfect!  I am going to start with figuring out valve guide wear and possible replacement (assuming I can even find the dimensions of the valve guides).  If there is a great deal of valve guide wear, and if I cannot replace the valve guides without pulling the engine, then I will pull the engine and do things the easy way.  I have the engine stand and cherry picker sitting in my garage ready to go… all I need to do is find someone in the area to help.  I am a lifetime member of AACA so I suspect I can get my hands on some sort of membership list.

 

Now for an update.  I just picked up the head.  It turns out that it was .020 out of flat.  In my experience, this is a relatively large amount of warp.  At some point, I would think that this engine was overheated.  Who knows.  This said, it is clean and flat now.  Here are a few images I just took.

 

Thanks again for all your time everyone.  At my age, time is the most important asset I have next to health.  It means a great deal to me that everyone is pitching in their time to assist.  I really cannot thank you enough.

 

Joe

 

 

[Randiego]

Joe,

Thank goodness that you had the head surfaced.  20 thousands is a lot and your probably right in that there was a "overheating" issue.  If the valve guide wear is not bad, hopefully, you can find a local who has the portable valve grinding equipment like F&J has in his response.  Good luck.

Randy

[Professor]

02 April Real-Time Updates

 

Good morning all.  My plan today was to remove the valves, but my valve spring compressor is still not here, so I started taking things apart.  I found a couple of issues when removing the side covers.  I have a broken nut on one of the manifold studs, and most of the intake and exhaust manifold nuts were loose.  Because of this, I am going to go ahead and remove the intake and exhaust manifolds and replace the gaskets.  I will also have them cleaned and sand blasted (It may be time for me to go to harbor freight and get a sand-blast cabinet).  Here are a few preliminary pictures.  I will take more after I get the manifolds off.  By the way, I am aware that the exhaust manifold is designed with expansion joints so before I install the exhaust manifold, I will check with the experts here on the proper way to install it.

 

Here are the first images:

 

 

[VW4X4]

Professor,

     I'm very interested to hear and see how your manifolds turn out.  First double check and see if they are bolted together the same way most six cylinders Chrysler products are.  These engines bolt the intake (by way of usually 4 bolts) directly to the exhaust vertically.  Then both manifolds  get bolted to the block horizontally. This creates two problems the way I see it. One is keeping them parallel and horizontal at the same time to meet the block, and the extreme /uneven  heating at the same time.   

      If you found the bolts loose, broken, cracked, It doesn't surprise me one bit, and  is all to common.  What ever procedure that people have found to work here I'm waiting to know about..... The arrangement on all these engine should have never been built this way.... Most six cylinders have a special brass taper washer to help with expansion, but things like that are just  patch work for bad design.

 

ERIC 

[Professor]

Manifolds are off.  Four of the brass nuts holding the manifolds on were stripped, but they were so soft it was relatively easy to remove them with a screwdriver applying pressure to the back side of the nut while turning the nut.  Here are some images.

 

 

[Professor]

More…

 

[Professor]

More…

 

[Professor]

More….

 

 

[Professor]

I checked the endplay on all of the valves and all of them have endplay when cold, including the burned exhaust valve on number 3.  I am going to gently separate the exhaust manifold into its three constituent parts and then clean up for the day and put the Chrysler back in the garage.  I will take the manifolds to my machine shop and get them cleaned and surfaced.  

 

I will post images of the separated exhaust manifold when I finish.

 

My head and intake manifold were both painted silver from the factory (or so it appears).  Does anyone know if the exhaust manifold was painted, and if so, what the color was?  If it was not painted, I may ceramic coat it a cast iron gray.

 

By the way… if I end up having to pull the engine, it will be easier now.  LOL.

 

Joe

[keiser31]

Both manifolds would have been on the engine prior to painting it so they would be silver, too. One thing a lot of guys do is to replace the bi-pass hose on the water pump and never paint it silver. It HAD to have been painted silver along with the engine as they would have installed it before painting....same as the manifolds.

Edited April 2, 2022 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Professor]

All done for the day.  On Monday I will take the parts in to have them vatted.  Also, I noticed a small crack forming on the exhaust manifold near the electric choke and another casting flaw that looks like it would be easy to break on the exhaust down pipe (for lack of a better term) so I will get it welded up too.  Here is a final image for the day: Chrysler is back in the garage until I get my spring compressor in.

 

 

[VW4X4]

2 hours ago, Professor said:

All done for the day.  On Monday I will take the parts in to have them vatted.  Also, I noticed a small crack forming on the exhaust manifold near the electric choke and another casting flaw that looks like it would be easy to break on the exhaust down pipe (for lack of a better term) so I will get it welded up too.  Here is a final image for the day: Chrysler is back in the garage until I get my spring compressor in.

 

 

 

Joe,    I would be very very careful about welding that manifold.  If you get it welded make absolutely sure the person knows what they are doing.  The Six cylinder Airstream manifolds are as rare as hens teeth.  I don't know about the Eight.  The Six cylinder is also fairly delicate. Any heavy rust can cause holes.  Welding the six cylinder exhaust manifold is almost impossible because of the way heat will then stress the welds then the manifold  cracks.  I've tried several times to repair one of these only to have it fall over and over again.  The welder, I took this thing to, is known world wide, and he told me the way it was build,  it is likely to fail.  I would hate to see you in the same spot.      

 

ERIC

[Professor]

Thanks Eric. If they cannot weld it, I will leave it alone.  The problem is that it appears to be a stress fracture… If I do not fix it, it will continue to crack.  I could (and may) stop drill the crack and then fill the small hole with JB weld to keep the crack from propagating.  I will know more on Monday.  The performance shop I go to has been around for a long time, I am confident that they will indicate they they cannot weld it if they do not think they will be successful.  The manifold is certainly not thin… it is quite robust, so hopefully it will be fine.  I will let everyone know on Monday,.

 

By the way, my spring compressor came in today so I may go ahead and take the valves out tomorrow; it depends on how I feel.  I am bushed today.  🙂. 

 

Joe

[Bloo]

Exhaust manifolds are always a problem to repair. Stitching is preferable to welding but sometimes not possible. The following thread contains a successful exhaust manifold weld repair by forum member @Paul S , and the last I heard it was still holding up. Read the whole thread for ideas. Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

[VW4X4]

20 hours ago, Bloo said:

Exhaust manifolds are always a problem to repair. Stitching is preferable to welding but sometimes not possible. The following thread contains a successful exhaust manifold weld repair by forum member @Paul S , and the last I heard it was still holding up. Read the whole thread for ideas. Good luck.

 

 

    

 

20 hours ago, Bloo said:

Thanks for the Link BLOO....  IT definitely gets my point across.    Does anyone have a specific method of installing the manifolds, and tightening them up together at the same time?  This seems to me, to be the route of the problems with cracking, bolts loose, leaks, etc.

ERIC

 

20 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

 

[Professor]

03 April 2022 Update

 

All valves are out.  I notice some really unusual wear patterns on the valve seats in the head, so I will post images.  After removing the valves, it is clear that all of the intake valves are okay, but several of the exhaust valves are exhibiting cracking on the outer edges (I will post images tomorrow).  It seems that none of the valves have the factory DPCD logo on the bottom side of the valve, so I have no idea if any of these valves are factory original.  The exhaust valves I purchased as factory replacements are both smaller in head diameter, and slightly longer than the exhaust valves in the engine.

 

First up are the micrometer measurements of the exhaust valves in the engine and the factory replacement valves (verified P/N):

 

 

[Professor]

Next up are the images of the valves on each individual cylinder, starting with cylinder 1

 

 

[Professor]

2:

 

 

[Professor]

3:

 

 

[Professor]

4:

 

 

[Professor]

5:

 

 

[Professor]

6:

 

 

[Professor]

7:

 

 

[Professor]

8:

 

 

[Professor]

And finally… the Goodnight Irene image:

 

 

[Boobtube]

"I would offer market value"...how is that determined?  It isn't like a common used car.  Is there a place one can look to determine the value of a classic car?  Having said that, as the old saying goes, "if the top goes down, the price goes up."  So I would imagine this being a convertible, it commands a higher price...whatever that would be.  I'd love to have an Airstream convertible.  Good luck.

[Professor]

Hi @Boobtube,

 

It took me a moment to figure out what you were responding to, but I realized you were looking at a very early discussion in this thread regarding what I should offer for this car.  I ended up getting two professonal appraisals and giving them to the gentleman who gave me the car.  Additionally, I gave him a blank signed check and said "fill in the amount you want".  He has not cashed the check yet, and I am getting the feeling he will not.  I remind him every few months, but I sense he cares more about the fact that I am bringing this car back to life than he does the money.  I show him the images I post to this thread every week when I visit him and he always comments on the detail in this restoration.  He thinks I am going overboard, but he loves it.  I personally think I am doing somewhat of a "hack" restoration, fixing only what needs fixing.  Regardless, I am happy with my "blank check" approach... I can sleep at night not feeling like I am somehow taking advantage of someone.

 

Joe

 

12 minutes ago, Boobtube said:

"I would offer market value"...how is that determined?  It isn't like a common used car.  Is there a place one can look to determine the value of a classic car?  Having said that, as the old saying goes, "if the top goes down, the price goes up."  So I would imagine this being a convertible, it commands a higher price...whatever that would be.  I'd love to have an Airstream convertible.  Good luck.

 

[JV Puleo]

On 4/2/2022 at 6:34 PM, Professor said:

... I could (and may) stop drill the crack and then fill the small hole with JB weld to keep the crack from propagating.  🙂. 

Metal stitching is the best but if not possible there are MUCH better industrial products than JBW (which I consider over-advertised rubbish). It isn't cheap but it is made to be used in instances like this. Off hand I can't remember the name I'm looking for but I have a can in the shop so I'll note it and post it tonight,

Edited April 5, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[VW4X4]

1 hour ago, Professor said:

Hi @Boobtube,

 

It took me a moment to figure out what you were responding to, but I realized you were looking at a very early discussion in this thread regarding what I should offer for this car.  I ended up getting two professonal appraisals and giving them to the gentleman who gave me the car.  Additionally, I gave him a blank signed check and said "fill in the amount you want".  He has not cashed the check yet, and I am getting the feeling he will not.  I remind him every few months, but I sense he cares more about the fact that I am bringing this car back to life than he does the money.  I show him the images I post to this thread every week when I visit him and he always comments on the detail in this restoration.  He thinks I am going overboard, but he loves it.  I personally think I am doing somewhat of a "hack" restoration, fixing only what needs fixing.  Regardless, I am happy with my "blank check" approach... I can sleep at night not feeling like I am somehow taking advantage of someone.

 

Joe

 

 

Well that sure is a interesting way to pay for a car!  Almost as bad as making an offer on a car and the seller comes back with a lower price!!     I guess this a is a good example of where money becomes a lot less important.

 

As for the work your doing on this car....   I have little or no interest in vehicles that have had a "Complete restoration" anymore. I've looked at way to many "complete restorations" that are not so well done.   Many of these end up loosing lots of originality and detail , that they will never ever get back.  Better off left alone, than to butcher or molest  like most are being done today.

 

ERIC