63 driveline vibration?

[Zimm63]

Chasing what I think is a driveline vibration.  I can feel it in my butt at 50-55 mph.  

 

I thought it might be related to the driveshaft repair I had done last winter, so that's been pulled, re balanced, and re installed.  Driveshaft guy said it was out and he balanced it up to 1800 rpm and its good.  Reputable shop. 

 

8 year old tires have been changed out by a good shop, so I am confident they are balanced correctly.

 

This morning, I took it out for a run and the vibration is still there.  If anything, its more pronounced.   When I rev the engine to speed sitting in the driveway, I don't feel any specific vibration.  

 

Where else should I be looking?  

[60FlatTop]

Jack the rear wheels off the ground and get the wheels turning with no load. A bad axle bearing shows up that way. You might have to hold one wheel to get the other to spin and it is good to have a helper. Unloaded it will rattle a lot.

 

Mine wasn't real bad. I could hear it echo off guard rails when driving with the windows down. I replaced the u-joints before I located the bearing. But I got it all nice an smooth in time to make the Buick Club Nationals in Sandusky, Ohio.

[telriv]

So has it been fine since you had it done last year???   Maybe you just didn't notice it??? Did it just seem to start out of the blue for no reason???

[Zimm63]

I have noticed the vibration since replacing the bearing, U Joints, and having a yoke replaced.    The yoke had to be done because it was loose enough to be able to push the bearing caps on with my fingers.  Having just pulled the shaft out again, I may have spotted the problem.  I originally took the shaft to a shop to have the yoke replaced.  They couldn't locate one and then their driveshaft guy went out with an extended illness.   I found another shop who had a used yoke and replaced it.  They supposedly balanced the shaft.  I kept noticing vibration at 50-55 but it wasn't pronounced and went away above 60.  

 

A few weeks ago I replaced the tires and still had the vibration.   Deciding to fix it, I took it back to the original shop who balanced it.  The guy told me that the rear shaft jumped around quite a bit and he had to shrink a couple spots.  It came back with new weights front and rear.   I installed the shaft last night and test drove it this morning.  The vibration was significantly worse at 50-55 and continued with higher speeds.

 

All that is a long winded history.  I just pulled the shaft out again and compared it to the picture in the manual of how a 4700 series drive shaft is to be phased.   From the back yoke to the front, there is supposed to be a 101 degree offset.  See pic below.  My shaft has about 11 degrees, per the pictures below.   The rear section has both yokes parallel.  The front yoke was replaced.   Given that it was cut off by one guy and installed by another,   I am wondering if we aren't out by 90 degrees right there.  The pin is in place on the splined shaft so that can only install one way.  What has me confused at the moment is that the picture from the manual leads me to believe the yokes should be parallel as opposed to 90 degrees off.  

 

Does anyone have an unmolested 63 drive shaft around for comparison?  

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Zimm63 (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

Picture from the transmission end:

 

 

[1965rivgs]

90 + 11 = 101  The ujoints dont care where the yokes are....

Tom M

[BulldogDriver]

I have an unmolested spare driveshaft from a 63. Will be back home this coming Tuesday and will post photos then. 
 

Ray

[EmTee]

Have you checked the rear transmission mount?

[Zimm63]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

90 + 11 = 101  The ujoints dont care where the yokes are....

Tom M

 

Not sure what you mean Tom.  Change the yoke, reindex the spline, or leave it alone?

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Zimm63 (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

19 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Have you checked the rear transmission mount?

 

Mount does not appear to be collapsed, no movement when prying between the transmission and crossmember.  

 

Thought of that, hoped that was it, but no joy.  

 

[RivNut]

I know it's hard to when working on cars but don't forget what you learned in basic science class as a freshman. ONLY CHANGE ON VARIABLE AT A TIME.

[Zimm63]

2 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I know it's hard to when working on cars but don't forget what you learned in basic science class as a freshman. ONLY CHANGE ON VARIABLE AT A TIME.

 

That's why I reinstalled the driveshaft without dealing with the play in the front yoke.  I know I need to change the bushing and have a new yoke on the way, but wanted to see if rebalancing he driveshaft cured the vibration.  It got worse.    That lead me to pull it back out and look at things from the beginning.  

 

[RivNut]

I was referring to doing the drive shaft and the tires at the same time. But I imagine if it's the same on both sets of tires it's got to be in the driveline.  But you also did bearings, yoke, and U-joints all atvthe same time. 

[Zimm63]

11 hours ago, RivNut said:

I was referring to doing the drive shaft and the tires at the same time. But I imagine if it's the same on both sets of tires it's got to be in the driveline.  But you also did bearings, yoke, and U-joints all atvthe same time. 

 

I see your point.  Too late to isolate those variables now.  Started out to replace the center bearing, and the u joints kind of fit into that.  The stinkin yoke was the wild card.  Did a google search and no joy on a picture of the rear section of a 63 driveshaft.  Question is whether the yokes are parallel like the picture, or in a cross, which would give the 101degrees shown.  

 

I have done the low range speed test described in the manual.  According to that, the vibration is in the driveshaft.  Could also be in the rear wheel bearings as Bernie described, but I did that test with no apparent answer.  Might pull them out just to be sure.  New gaskets and seals would cost about $35 at CARS.  

[EmTee]

Maybe try the drive shaft vibration procedure in the ('67) shop manual that calls for installing a pair of worm gear clamps on the shaft, driving the car and incrementally changing the clocking of the worm gear mechanisms with respect to each other.  If you're able to improve the situation that would seem to confirm a shaft balance issue.  One other thought -- could the pinion angle be out, or marginally within spec?  How are the rear springs and rear suspension bushings?  Is the chassis ride height in spec?  Do any of the rear suspension components (e.g., trailing arms) look bent or damaged?

[Zimm63]

Rear suspension appears sound, no new changes there.  Remember, I fooled with the driveshaft and got vibration.  Fooled with it some more and got more vibration.  Changed the tires, still got vibration.  

 

Today's science experiment was to put the two halves back at 101 degrees out of phase.  I removed the clip locating the spline, marked that spot, and rotated four splines (there are 16 splines).  Reassembled and the shaft now resembles the picture in the manual.  Re installed the drive shaft and noticed is now vibrates a bit more and starts at a lower speed.  Hypothesis is that it needs to be properly balanced with the two shafts phased per the manual.

 

Only way I can see it got off by 90 degrees is that the front yoke on the rear section was installed parallel to the rear yoke, when it should have been 90 degrees.  This does not necessarily jive with figure 6-69 above, which shows the yokes to be parallel.   That picture leaves out any detail of the carrier bearing and spline assembly and may be illustrative of the 101 degree issue as opposed to the actual placement of the yokes.  Don't know.

 

A picture of a real live rear section of the drive shaft will tell that tale.  BulldogDriver has said he has one and will post pics on Tuesday.  We will see.   If the yokes are parallel, I am stumped as to how it became phased improperly.  If they are at 90 degrees, the new yoke was installed incorrectly.  That would be due to the first shop cut the yoke off, and the second one installed the new one.  

 

For a positive, I am getting really good at pulling the driveshaft out and putting it back.  

 

 

[1965rivgs]

23 hours ago, Zimm63 said:

 

Not sure what you mean Tom.  Change the yoke, reindex the spline, or leave it alone?

 

 

Zimm,

  Even though most view the yokes when referencing phase what is really being phased are the ujoints and specifically the "crosses". It is simply easier for the naked eye to view the alignment of the yokes but ultimately this alignment of the yokes causes the crosses to fall into alignment. So, if one has both yokes in alignment then the crosses are in alignment. If one changes the relationship of the yokes to be 90 degrees out of alignment, the crosses are still in alignment in spite of the fact the yokes are 90 degrees out. I should have probably stated in my last post that "the driveshaft doesnt care where the yokes are positioned as long as the ujoint crosses are in the proper alignment". 

  In the factory illustration the phasing is 101 degrees. If one changed the relationship of the yokes from being aligned along the same plane to be 90 + 11(as you describe your present yoke phasing) the relationship of the ujoint crosses is the same 101 degrees without reference to the position of the yokes. A little hard to explain and understand because the Riv phasing is unorthodox

Tom

[Zimm63]

Thanks Tom, that makes more sense.  

 

In my case, the shaft was balanced at 11 degrees, not 101.  My guess is due to the installer of the yoke not knowing it was to be 90 degrees from the back one.  That, plus the spline set up would get to 101.  My fault for not double checking the work.  I got the shaft back and installed it.  When it actually vibrated more than before, I pulled out the manual and checked the phasing.  Now that I have changed the spline index, the shaft is likely out of balance even more.   

 

Going to get this right, but its being difficult.  

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Zimm63 (see edit history)

[telriv]

Another HORROR drive shaft episode.

[Zimm63]

Tom- any rites of exorcism you can offer would be appreciated.  At the moment, I am thinking pull it out, rebalance at the correct phasing, and try again.  Past that, chuck the damn thing and find another one.  

 

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Zimm63 said:

Tom- any rites of exorcism you can offer would be appreciated.  At the moment, I am thinking pull it out, rebalance at the correct phasing, and try again.  Past that, chuck the damn thing and find another one.  

 

Hi Zimm,

  Not sure which Tom you were reaching out to but...I really cant tell whats going on with the yokes in the pics but my point is that no matter where the yokes are positioned the phasing is ultimately determined by the position of the ujoint crosses and, although relevant, not necessarily by the position of the yokes.

  If I`m understanding correctly you still have an issue with excessive wear with one of the yokes? Maybe straightening that out will help?

Tom M

[Zimm63]

Immediate reference was to Tom Telesco.  

 

Wear in the front yoke of the rear section was found when I replaced the center bearing and u joints last winter.  Trouble was, one shop removed the yoke and another installed the replacement.   Details of that are buried above.  My theory is that the second shop put the two yokes in parallel as shown in figure 6-69, when they should have been installed 90 degrees off.  That would explain how the shaft ended up way out of phase.  Reindexing the spline (turning it 1/4) brings the phasing back.  

 

Further guessing is that even though the shaft was balanced at 11 degrees out of phase, it still vibrated as the difference should be 101 degrees.  Reindexing the spline now has it out of balance between the two shaft sections.  I plan to pull it back out later this afternoon and take it back to the driveline shop for rebalancing.  

 

All additional suggestions welcome.  

 

 

[steelman]

Zimm, if you are sure you have it phased right, take a paint marker and mark the two sections with witness marks on each half of the shaft. Just in case the shop decides to take it apart for any reason, they will know how to line it up correctly.

[telriv]

Zimm,

 

   Sorry for the lop sided reply.  Most all of us in the  "Know"  have come across this so many times it's absolutely crazy.  Most ALL professional driveshaft shops have screwed these up for years.   Sometimes to save yourself the total grief,  disappointment & frustration sometimes it's best to find an untouched original shaft & start over.  I've heard of those spending thousands of $$$$ only to be faced with the exact same thing. MANY have gotten so disgusted the car was sold.  Others did what I'm recommending by replacing the shaft with an untouched original & going forward with the knowledge gained started over.  It's too bad that this still happens, BUT how many shops run into these shafts???  Unless YOU teach them beforehand.

Just my nickels worth.

 

Tom T.

[Zimm63]

22 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Zimm,

  Even though most view the yokes when referencing phase what is really being phased are the ujoints and specifically the "crosses". It is simply easier for the naked eye to view the alignment of the yokes but ultimately this alignment of the yokes causes the crosses to fall into alignment. So, if one has both yokes in alignment then the crosses are in alignment. If one changes the relationship of the yokes to be 90 degrees out of alignment, the crosses are still in alignment in spite of the fact the yokes are 90 degrees out. I should have probably stated in my last post that "the driveshaft doesnt care where the yokes are positioned as long as the ujoint crosses are in the proper alignment". 

  In the factory illustration the phasing is 101 degrees. If one changed the relationship of the yokes from being aligned along the same plane to be 90 + 11(as you describe your present yoke phasing) the relationship of the ujoint crosses is the same 101 degrees without reference to the position of the yokes. A little hard to explain and understand because the Riv phasing is unorthodox

Tom

Having spent some time staring at the thing, I think I get it now. The horizontal line is off 11 degrees back u joint to front, which makes the horizontal to vertical relationship 101 degrees.  That will be true at any one of 4 points on the circle, so my changing things by 90 degrees makes the thing look like the picture in the book and it is still in phase.  Out of balance front to back, but still in phase.   I also found the detail drawing of the driveshaft assembly in the manual that answers the question as to alignment of the yokes on the rear section.  They are parallel, according to that.   So the original orientation was in phase, as is the current orientation having been moved 90 degrees.   I think.  Still interested in seeing another one to see the relationship of the yokes, even though its not the key element.  Figure 6-69 is not my friend in understanding this.  

 

Had a good talk with the driveshaft guy.  He recommends dealing with the worn yoke bushing in the back of the transmission to eliminate that movement.  New yoke is on order, bushing is here, so that will proceed over the next few days.  He will rebalance the shaft with the new yoke.  I am confident he knows his business.  

 

Will report as developments occur.  

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Zimm63 said:

Having spent some time staring at the thing, I think I get it now. The horizontal line is off 11 degrees back u joint to front, which makes the horizontal to vertical relationship 101 degrees.  That will be true at any one of 4 points on the circle, so my changing things by 90 degrees makes the thing look like the picture in the book and it is still in phase.  Out of balance front to back, but still in phase.   I also found the detail drawing of the driveshaft assembly in the manual that answers the question as to alignment of the yokes on the rear section.  They are parallel, according to that.   So the original orientation was in phase, as is the current orientation having been moved 90 degrees.   I think.  Still interested in seeing another one to see the relationship of the yokes, even though its not the key element.  Figure 6-69 is not my friend in understanding this.  

 

Had a good talk with the driveshaft guy.  He recommends dealing with the worn yoke bushing in the back of the transmission to eliminate that movement.  New yoke is on order, bushing is here, so that will proceed over the next few days.  He will rebalance the shaft with the new yoke.  I am confident he knows his business.  

 

Will report as developments occur.  

Yes...as I stated maybe straightening out the worn yoke is the way to go at this point before moving on to "finer" details,

Tom

[Turbinator]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:50 AM, Zimm63 said:

Chasing what I think is a driveline vibration.  I can feel it in my butt at 50-55 mph.  

 

I thought it might be related to the driveshaft repair I had done last winter, so that's been pulled, re balanced, and re installed.  Driveshaft guy said it was out and he balanced it up to 1800 rpm and its good.  Reputable shop. 

 

8 year old tires have been changed out by a good shop, so I am confident they are balanced correctly.

 

This morning, I took it out for a run and the vibration is still there.  If anything, its more pronounced.   When I rev the engine to speed sitting in the driveway, I don't feel any specific vibration.  

 

Where else should I be looking?  

Zimm, my 63 drive shaft rumbled on acceleration take off. I had new universals installed every place on the propeller shaft. The drive shaft was NOT balanced. No more vibration. Mine was a simple fix.....for once.

Turbinator 

 

[dr914]

maybe also check the wheels for balance, heavy wheel covers (like the turbines) that are installed after the wheel and tire is balanced on a machine OFF the car, can be quickly unbalanced when the turbines are bolted on. Happened to me, thought that the driveshaft was out of balance. It was not!!!!!!!

[RivNut]

If you look at the back side of an untouched turbine wheel cover, you'll see small clips on the inside lip. I imagine they're balancing clips.  Don't know how you'd balance a wheel with a turbine cover on it. The turbine covers the lip on the wheel.  Can't balance a normal wheel cover, the spindle on the balancer comes out too far.  Guess someone somewhere still has an old bubble balancer.

[telriv]

I have done the turbines along with the wheel at the same time.  Makes for a perfectly balanced wheel & tire together.  It takes much longer than normal, BUT it CAN be done IF your looking for more true balance with the turbines on. AND I use a Snap-On spin balancer.

 

Tom T.

[RivNut]

31 minutes ago, telriv said:

I have done the turbines along with the wheel at the same time.  Makes for a perfectly balanced wheel & tire together.  It takes much longer than normal, BUT it CAN be done IF your looking for more true balance with the turbines on. AND I use a Snap-On spin balancer.

 

Tom T.

I'm assuming that because of the time factor, this is not something you should expect at Roy's Discount Tire Store next to the mall.

[telriv]

For sure Ed, unless you know someone who works there.    As we ALL KNOW TIME IS MONEY.

[BulldogDriver]

Dyna beads? I use them on motorcycles and the truck industry uses them with good results. Will be using them when I replace the Tiger Paws.

[EmTee]

There used to be a frame shop here in the 70's/80's that used an on-car wheel balancing system.  It spun and balanced the entire whee/tire/brake hub assembly.  The downside was I had to mark the wheel/stud position with chalk whenever removing a wheel.  Also, rotating tires required re-balancing.

[telriv]

Yeah, I still have two of those type balancers.  One has a strobe light I can use for balancing engines using the flywheel/flexplate.