Making The Case to Collect a Last Generation Park Ave

[EmTee]

18 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

She drove it back home and I pulled the high speed relay...

Wow - I'm impressed! 

 

Don't bother buying the 'cheap' ($40) offshore blower power modules on E-bay.  I tried one on my wife's Allante' and it did not work.  I bought an AC-Delco replacement from Rock Auto and the blower control works now.

[JohnD1956]

21 hours ago, dship said:

I know that's not very many compared to many other Buick owners.  But over time I've owned four Rivieras and two Reattas with the 3800 V6 engine.  The only other Buick I owned was an '85 Riviera with the anemic 307 ci Old's engine.

I always try to avoid the word "never" in statements, BUT I will NEVER buy another Olds 307

[Frank DuVal]

23 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

A few years ago my son had a 2001 Park Avenue that had a delayed shift between gears. It threw an OBD2 code.

You don't have the pull the lamp option?

 

Or cut the wire and install a small switch right at the computer to turn off the lamp? 

 

There are counties around here where it is not an option. Garage computer plugged into OBD II port talks to state computer to get license plates renewed.

 

My '98 has been delayed shift at times for 30K miles. I just know to raise my right foot like I am driving a manual.... I used to borrow a Chevy Suburban with the same issue, drove it like a manual for the 1-2 shift.

[60FlatTop]

OBD2 problems will be with the post 1996 cars for quite a while. And they are a real consideration for those planning to maintain a car as a collector item.

 

The old tricksters and hacks of years past are not going to be happy with these cars as they age. Emissions controls are embedded in the processor linked to the DMV. Diagnostics is not as simple as "replacing the part the computer tells the mechanic is bad". There is still a lot of thinking that goes into it. I hear those stories frequently from the old guys having coffee in town.

 

In New York State a 2005 car will be exempt at 25 years of age, That's an EPA regulation.2030. Eight years can be a long time for the typical forum member. Those on fixed income may not have funding to fire "the parts canon" at their problems. It is a consideration for those buying their collector car at the bottom of its depreciation cycle. And the fabled "My Mechanic" will be focused on newer cars and quite busy when OBD3 hits.

 

I have been studying computer controlled engines for at least four years with real intent. I bought the code readers and diagnostic interface tools. I have quite a stack of textbooks that I read at least a few evenings a week. Here are a few:

 As well as make specific manuals and a subscription to AllData.com.

 

I rarely even look at the shop manuals for my older cars. The newer stuff, as I mentioned, about 3 times a week or more just studying the basics.

 

On the up side, I heard the amount of sleep a person gets is related to how much they learn each day and the time to digest it. I sleep long and soundly. Something to think about for those lying awake at 3 AM.

[EmTee]

On 7/4/2023 at 1:04 PM, 60FlatTop said:

Emissions controls are embedded in the processor linked to the DMV.

NYS also requires the shop to connect the OBD2 interface to the state's network to verify no MIL as part of the annual safety/emission inspection.  This was a consideration recently when looking for my wife's convertible.  We wound-up with a '93 Allante', so it is exempt from annual NYS emission testing.

[Machine Gun]

I recently replaced my 2016 Jetta with a 1990 Volvo 740 GL as my daily driver. The VW was a good car, but I'm so not interested in dealing with sophisticated engine management systems any more. Now if I could only get my wife to feel the same way about her car...

[parkertom]

Out with my Ultra this morning and found a twin in the parking lot.

[B Jake Moran]

Very nice.  They are still around.  

[Centurion]

This beautiful 1998 Park Avenue Ultra was displayed at the 2023 Buick National Meet in Spokane.  The owner is Kevin Sweeney from Huntington Beach, California.

[NTX5467]

Back when a national parts store chain was advertising that they'd pull the codes on your car for free, BUT also print out a list of the parts needed to fix those codes, it got THEM a lot of related traffic to the stores, consider then dealer would do it for 1/2hr of labor, refundable if we fixed the car. 

 

BUT, just like in the non-computered days, you STILL have to know how the codes interact with each other, such that ONE code could trigger other codes too!!!  And a leaking intake manifold gasket (on Vortec 5.3L V-8s, for example) would do just that.  For example, the leaking intake manifold gasket (which was a stiff plastic design with small silicone seals in it) could cause a "lean code" on that one cylinder, as it could also cause a "misfire code" due to a lean mixture not getting ignited.  If the leak was near the coolant passage at the front, more codes.  Seems like there were usually 5 codes all together?

 

In those times in the 1990s, many perceived the computers "knew it all", which they did, to a certain extent.  Which was one orientation the auto supply chain used to sell more parts (their ultimate goal).  Also knowing that some of those auto supply parts were not application-specific could also result in the issue not being fixed after THEIR parts were used in the repair.

 

SO . . . when somebody came in with the heat-print list of parts needed, I would gently tell them that I could sell them all of those parts, for them to DIY install, BUT that they needed to get to the root cause of why the codes were being set to start with.  Explaining, too, that one code could trigger other codes on that list, which meant they were over-spending to get the vehicle fixed.

 

THEN . . . I'd explain that our GM special tools Scanner was much more sophisticated than what the auto supply had, as the dealership's Tech II system could isolate specific timeframes when the code was set, to allow the tech to see what was going on and why.  Which led into my suggestion that if they took that list to the service drive, the FIRST thing our tech would do is hook the GM scan tool to the vehicle and see what was going on, making THEIR determination of what was needed to really fix the issue.  Not unlike a responsible tech at ANY shop would do, I highly suspect.

 

If a customer came to the front parts counter with a similar list (from where ever) or from their own scanner, I would kindly suggest they run their deal by our shop foreman, for verification.  End result is that they should have come to us first in order to get a better fix, in the end, possibly for less money spent.

 

NOW . . . in the 25+ years since then, the level of scan tools available to the public has increased a lot, in what they can do and detect.  Just as Internet knowledge of the codes and what can trigger them has increased, too.  Just as GM has improved their special tool scanner capabilities a humongous amount too, now being laptops rather than a shop-only roll-around "box with cables".

 

Even with these massive increases in computer capabilities, it still takes one spark to ignite the air/fuel mixture in one cyolinder, just like in the old days.  Those relationships have never changed.

 

ONE thing which became available, starting in the 1990s, was that EVERY special tool, access to diagnostics, and TSBs for GM vehicles became available through the ACDelco realm of things.  For a subscription which was about $1000.00/month back then.  Currently, you can still subscribe or get a certain-timed access (week, month, etc.) into that database for less money.  Usually available to repair shops, but MIGHT also be available to knowledgeable individuals, possibly.  At THIS time, going back into the 1990s might be "iffy", though.  Still. Google can be your friend.  Just have to know whom in the search results to believe.

 

The GOOD THING is that most of the common Buick and Chevy engine "things" were easy to diagnose and fix, since the later-1980s.  Which can be where a knowledgeable retired GM parts person can come in handy, sometimes.

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Frank DuVal]

Hey Tom, I didn't know you were out driving the Ultra, I was in Berryville on The 6th driving my Ultra! Not white, though. Or Pearl White....

[Centurion]

As some of you have likely observed, a 2003 Park Avenue Ultra with 25,000 miles sold this week on a Bring A Trailer auction.  The car sold for $16,000.

 

Here is the link:  No Reserve: 25k-Mile 2003 Buick Park Avenue Ultra for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $16,000 on February 10, 2024 (Lot #135,998) | Bring a Trailer

 

I find the comments posted by those who monitored the auction to be most interesting, and I recommend that anyone having an interest in these cars read them.  Here are a few noteworthy excerpts:

 

"Since my former business partner and I quit our day jobs back in 1999 to focus on our hobby — classic and collector cars — we’ve sold more than 2,000 to this day. I’ve driven pretty much everything that has wheels, and my dailies included Rolls SS I and II, Bentley Mulsanne and Turbo R, Jaguar XJ’s, Mercedes-Benz, and BMWs, among many others.

Then, around 2016, he bought his 2002 Park Avenue, nick-named it “Social Security.” Eventually he added a Riviera to the fleet and sold it shortly after, to keep driving his Park Avenue, which he still drives to this day.
"Eventually I saw the light and bought a 2002 Le Sabre as my daily, now with 56K miles on the clock, basically the same car as the Park Avenue, but a bit less loaded. It’s the best daily I’ve ever owned. Comfortable like a Cadillac or Lexus, but without any of the potential headaches associated with driving one into high mileage territory.

The LeSabre/Park Avenue is the last car without a center console that cuts into the interior space, which is why it’s also the last Buick 6-seater.  . . . The 3.8 V6 might be the best and most durable engine next to an old fashioned Chevy Small Block. It’s silky smooth, bullet-proof, easy to live with, and that American sled gets up to 30 mpg on the highway to boot!

" . . .The Park Avenue was the last really great Buick, and a well-preserved one can be “the last car you ever own,” and I mean that literally.
"Can you buy a Rolls and drive it for the rest of your life, or a Mercedes-Benz or a BMW? Sure, if you budget in tens of thousands of dollars to replace failing electronic systems. That Buick doesn’t need any of this. It has everything you need, nothing you don’t. . . . 

"Please, folks, keep this a secret. The last thing we cogniscenti want is for people to buy up the last of these cars and drive ’em ’til the wheels fall off. Let them buy some fancy new car, finance it at 10%, and replace it every few years with another new one. Sure, that’s way over a Million bucks in the long run, but who’s counting?"

 

The “Greatest Generation” did know what they were doing when they bought these 3800 V6 Buicks 20-30 years ago by what seemed to be by the gross.

I had always said if I ever needed a cheap commuter, I’d track one down to use up. Well, one day, it happened, and I had to. I found one owner, 15-year-old Buick, with the prerequisite Assisted Living parking sticker in the back window.

I’ve had it going for four years, and it’s needed nothing, unlike my much newer cars that get driven way less. I had to travel across four states the other day, and when I got there, my friend said, “You’ve got to be kidding me; of all the cars you have, you brought Grand Dad’s Buick”

I said, “Yep, it gets 32 mpg, doesn’t need premium fuel, and after a 10-hour drive, nothing on me is sore, and it’s never given me a reason to doubt it wouldn’t run 24-7 if asked to.” We took the Buick vs. his “Luxury” Crossover around town all weekend, and I could tell he was paying attention to how it drove and ran.

He called me the other day, “So hell has frozen over. I want a Buick, and I need you to help me find my own…” Ask the man who owns one…

 

Three years ago, when I was looking at a Lexus LS for a reliable daily driver, I came across a low mileage, elderly owned ’04 Park Avenue Ultra for sale. The Park Ave’s 79k original miles and supercharged 3800 persuaded me it was the one to get. While I agree with the praise in the comments here, these Park Aves aren’t without their issues (in my case, it was mostly deferred maintenance). But, as I have come to realize, neither are LSs. The LS may be the better car, but a 20-year -old Buick is simpler and a lot cheaper to fix than a 20-year-old LS needing the same age-related repairs. My Ultra now has 105k miles on the odo and is an enjoyable, responsive, and very comfortable ride. So I’m content to drive the cheaper road less traveled, my fedora placed proudly on the rear package shelf to accompany me on the next 100k miles (or more).

 

 

 

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[parkertom]

@Centurion I was sure watching this one. Even considered it for an upgrade from my current Ultra. It was lower mileage and a little better condtion. The price quickly jumped to $10k and stayed for most of the auction. Started out this morning at $14.5k.
 

I wonder what the new owner purchased for? Probably to get a nice low mileage Park Avenue in what appears to be excellent condition to drive for as long as they like. 
 

I bought mine with 31k miles almost 3 years ago. Up to 47500 now. I don’t have to do a lot of driving so slowly adding mileage. I look at alternatives every now and then but it’s hard to find something better these days.

[Centurion]

parkertom, you were extremely fortunate to find such a fine, low mileage example, and you were wise to nab it when you did!

 

[buickboy89]

On 10/22/2019 at 9:53 AM, 60FlatTop said:

 

I always looked at the flip front as a body fit ploy. Only one hood seam could be seen at a time. You can't detect a misalignment.

 

Mine is a two door and they were fairly low production, commonly seen in the Electra 380 and T-Type models. My car left the factory as a coupe with a cloth interior and delivered in convertible form from the dealer. Research seems to tell that a Chicago dealer pulled it from their stock and had the conversion done for a show or promotion. A customer order would usually be bumped to leather and more options. I bought the car in Racine, Wisconsin in 2011 with a bad engine. It appears to have spent it's life in Round Lake, Il. If anyone remembers the car PM me.

I figured a Buick convertible that got 25 MPG would be just the thing for the future, I completed rebuilding everything mechanical and sorting it out in 2013. I have been putting the top down in April and leaving it ready for sunny days until November (that means if it wasn't raining I could go top down today.

It is a nice driver, but I wouldn't have done the work if it was a coupe or sedan.

 

Oh! I even found a set of four NOS wheels. I guess there was a little writing on the wall....err....um...label.

Would you sale that convertible park ave?