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1903 Cleveland Roadster project


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Hello Harm,

 

I am glad we could help and the files are working out well for you! I see you have a Creality 3D printer. We have two Creality CR-10's in our lab that are running almost non-stop - affordable, good quality prints and they just keep printing!

 

We really enjoyed this project. Not only did my students get to work on an interesting project they also got to apply their skills and talents to provide help to another person. Anytime we can help others and have a learning experience is always fantastic.

 

Again, thank you so much for the excellent opportunity and good luck with the casting. I will make sure to share your progress with my students.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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I don't know how it could be organized - and I'm not volunteering - but taking Jeff's suggestion a bit further I suspect that what might be useful is a place to archive digitized data. There is probably too much work involved to create 3D files for parts on spec but wouldn't it be nice if there was a place to store data that had already been done and that another enthusiast might need in the future. This is just an idea...I can see all sorts of pitfalls not the least of which is that with the technology changing constantly the files might be obsolete in a very short time. I don't begin to be qualified to say it's even possible - it may be that each type of printer requires it's own dedicated file but it is something that deserves some thought - perhaps by those of you with a lot more knowledge of the requirements.

 

I once typeset a 500 page book of which only 50 copies were printed. I saved the discs should they ever be needed again. They were 10-inch "floppy" discs and the machines that could read them were obsolete and junked ten years after I did the job so I'm not kidding myself that digital files are forever - I think it's just the opposite. Books and hard copy are forever.

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Hello Harm,

 

I saw your comment about not being able to get through to Otto Gas Engine Works for the rings on your engine. I have been in touch with Dave Reed before on a project I am working on (1922 Oldsmobile V8), most recently in January of 2021. It did take me a couple of tries to get through via phone, but I will say that Dave has a wealth of knowledge and parts supply.

 

Wishing you the best of luck,

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Rusty Berg

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Hello,

Last week I sanded, primed and painted the brake molds. I did this to get rid of the small printing lines, so they look really nice now.

This afternoon I went off to the foundry. They told me they are very busy, so I am happy they would do it as a side job. I was a bit shocked by the quote they gave me, but as these are essential parts I decided to keep my mouth shut, and asked them to go ahead. Delivery time is about 4 weeks, which I do consider as not too bad. Experiences with another foundry in the past, left me waiting for 4 months for some simple castings. That foundry does not exist anymore, which is unfortunate, as they delivered a really good quality.

As the weather is improving, Anna and I have to do some house painting, not really my favorite job . Furthermore, some time ago the motor of the Bridgeport head of my Franken mill shorted. I guess there is something wrong with the field coils, I will take care of it tomorrow.

 

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Primed and painted

 

IMG_0720.jpg.4a3fed5ccb66e8b93735f673a79f6bba.jpg

Both brake molds ready for the foundry. Blobs of paint to be removed before I go to the foundry 😏.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

Last weeks, Anna an I did lot of sanding and painting. We are half way now, but yesterday it started raining so we postponed the remainder of the work until the weather improves.

Today I received the order confirmation of the brake drum castings, week 21 they will be ready.

Last week I received the head gaskets for the Cleveland engine. I am very happy with the quality, they fit perfect.

 

Gaskets.jpg.fa9d6a126a1716caebbdcf3960d6e100.jpg

The round gasket is the actual head gasket, for the ignition chamber the elongated one is needed.

 

Last weeks I did a lot of designing and drawing. I need brake bell cranks and some levers for the brake system. The lever which came with the car when I bought it, are late Ford model T levers, not suitable for the Cleveland and to far gone to use them anyhow. So I looked at a 1903 Cadillac of a friend and took some measurements. Furthermore I took some detail pictures of the 1903 Mitchell when we were in London in 2019.

 

1921920184_Brakebelcranks.jpg.b4100110ebbbf26da6a80aff2d2fb035.jpg

Brake bell cranks.

 

Hendels.jpg.52cef5112cf21d76f5bf514cb353ad8d.jpg

Brake system levers.

 

I asked the foundry what it would cost to have them cast, price wise a bit steep, I can live with that, but delivery date not. As I mentioned before, they are very busy, they told me "maybe end of this year".  I planned to make the molds from wood, simple and fast. But, as I wanted to have the chassis ready before Christmas this year, this was not going well. After some nights sleep, I decided to have them cut from steel plate and turn and mill, decent levers and bell cranks. That means I have to make decent drawings (DXF files). After checking continuous contours etc., I had the DXF files online converted to STL files, then sliced to G-code for the printer.  I printed them with the 3D printer, red on the pictures. 

After everything was OK, I send the DXF files to the company who did the water cutting of the steel plate. When you do all the file handling yourself, and send the correct files to this company, you only pay for the steel and the cutting time. When the company does the all the handling, and make the necessary corrections, it will cost you an 'arm and a leg'. They advertise with this possibility to reduce cost and delivery time greatly for amateurs.

 

Tomorrow, Anna and I will get our first vaccine jab (the second will be administered the 6th of June) . I must say we both looking forward to it. So maybe the second half of this year we can go, more or less,  back to some kind of normal....

This afternoon we received an invitation, for a 3 day rally, at the first weekend in September. 😊 Would be our first brass car outing in 1.5 year.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

Last Friday I got an email message from the foundry, that the brake drums were ready to collect 😄. So this morning Anna and I went to the foundry to collect them. I praised them for being 2 weeks earlier than planned.

I am happy with the quality of the drums. Some machine work is needed, but overall they look good. Each of them weighing slightly more than 4.5 Lbs (2 kg).

 

IMG_0730.jpg.7bf438d9308e81ea496a6d3525875ba3.jpg

Brake drum pair for the axle bar.

 

IMG_0734.jpg.cb8b3a7306a310324fdf99fb6b829008.jpg

Brake drums, to be  fitted on the axle bar.

 

IMG_0731.jpg.10f0667224da043679994f0c143a135a.jpg

Brake drum pair for the sleeve axle.

 

IMG_0733.jpg.057753df071d8b4a29685d5431194ca6.jpg

Brake drums to be fitted on the sleeve axle.

 

It might be clear that for the next weeks some machining must be done. I am looking forward to it, thisr item can be removed from my Cleveland to do list.

@Terry, the foundry people were impressed by the accuracy of the mold, it caused them no problems at all.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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  • 2 months later...

Hello all,

Ann and I got "a bit" distracted, first by painting the farm, this takes more effort and time (due to bad weather and mishap with Ann's Covid vaccination). But the story of the main distraction follows here after, and it is quite a story.

 

Eleven years ago my brother in law passed away. As my brother in law was a keen classic car collector, his wife (Ann's sister) was left with a nice collection of cars. But as Ann's sister is twelve years older than Ann and in her late seventies, she wanted to get rid of most of the cars. During the last years most of the cars were sold. My brother in law was some of a character (hoarder that is). When he liked a car he bought it, and sometimes took it completely apart, this with the intention to restore it. I guess this will sound familiar to most of you 😁. But some cars he never put together, other cars arrived to play with (also sounds familiar?). So my sister in law was left with some kits of cars. One of them is a 1931 Ford model A deLuxe roadster. The car was spread all over the house (it is a really large house), a garage and some sheds. Long story short, she gave the car to me, with the condition to restore it as soon as possible. I guess she has very fond (maybe romantic) memories of the car. But as she in her late seventies, and luckily in a very good health, some urgency is required.

First we dug up the car (or what was left of it). When we uncovered it, the engine was clearly not where it should be, no engine there. Took us two long weekends to find it. Upholstery and small parts were found scattered all over the place. Fenders: we found a lot of fenders, some new, some used, but not one fitted (not unusual but make them fit is a time consuming job 😩). Brackets and that kind of stuff were lost, I ordered new. Bolts and nuts, bucket loads of them but not the right ones, ordered them also. When we visit Ann's sister, we take our "shopping list" with us to look for missing parts. (Ann's sister does not live near us, takes a drive of 1 1/2 hours to get there (yes I know, distances in the USA are of an other dimension 😁 ).

 

So 7 weeks ago we started restoring the car. First of all, I removed all the parts which where loosely fixed at the chassis. Most of the time I just cut the bolts as they where badly rusted. After the chassis was bare,  I took a lot of measurements. Ford model A chassis are sagged or bent or somehow out of whack... To my amazement, this chassis was the best I ever worked on. The only thing which needed attention was the front cross beam. The hole for the engine mount and its spring keeper area was worn out. Cut the worn area out and made a small patch panel and welded it in. Overhauled the front axle and the rear axle, removed the not completed conversion to 1940's brakes, and put the original model A brakes back in. Rear axle needed new bearings and grease seals, but the gears are as new. Sprayed a lot of black paint, and some  Ford engine green on the engine and gear box. And after 4 weeks with long days of hard work, we assembled the lot. Well that was the easy part.

 

The body offered some challenges, at first sight, it looked nice and straight. But (stupid me) I decided to clean it to bare metal. Ann looked and uttered something of Swiss cheese... and that it was. Replaced some rust with patch panels and made it as straight as I could. After a lot of welding and hammering it looked OK. Test fitted the doors and was satisfied with the fitting. After that, I pained the underside and inside with the wrong color....🥵. That is a story for a future installment ☺️.

 

A week ago Ann and I put the body on the chassis adjusted the body blocks accordingly, and started to fit the fenders. They don't fit at all, and I am reasonably sure that the fenders belonging to the car got lost during the 40 years the car rested as a kit of parts. So that is what happened during the last few months. I must admit I am missing working on the Cleveland greatly. But at the moment I have to many irons in the fire.

 

One thing Cleveland related: at long last I got the piston rings. I ordered them at Starbolt. I am happy with them, nicely made and fitted very well. Furthermore it seems that the Cleveland of Roger Weiss is for sale, I stumbled over an add. of May this year. Can't find it back but I am sure I saved it somewhere on my computer.

 

IMG_0752.jpg.5497f535c0881e11815ff58da402ccc8.jpg
From left to right: the Ford, Ann, Ann sisters dog Molly and Ann's sister .

 

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Ann overlooking a once beautiful car.

 

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The bare Ford model A chassis.

 

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Ann busy painting the rear axle.

 

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After sand blasting (very low pressure) and primer, some welding seems in order.

 

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Fitting a cowl patch panel,  drivers side, passengers side same procedure.

 

IMG_0787.jpg.c9561eb5f441e575ecafc4c1d677ae04.jpg
I took this picture a week ago, still a lot to do.

 

Regards, Harm and Ann



 

 

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Glad to hear you guys are doing well and fun to see you new project.  As to you comments about hoarding things, taking them apart and not putting them back together, well, I can tell you I resemble that comment.  :)

 

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Hello Harm, There is nothing wrong with Model A Ford Roadster!  They are sporty, open, drivable, stoppable and affordable to buy any needed parts. The value is always fair as everyone can relate with a Model A Ford.  My first running and driving antique was a 1929 Model A Ford Roadster.  What fun and with great memories I still hold dear of that automobile. I have not heard anything of the Roger W. Cleveland.  It would be nice to learn where it ends up.  Keep us informed about the Model A and Cleveland.

Regards,

Al

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  • 3 weeks later...

Still busy with the Ford Model A roadster, sanding and spraying primer/surfacer 😒. Hope to spray the final coat next week. At this moment we have very nice weather for this type of work, sunny, not windy, dry and 70F.

 

Within two weeks, we will have our first outing with our 1912 Flanders20 (the last one was September 2019). Last week I started to prepare the car. Started it, and detected overheating. The Flanders20 never overheated before, so I wondered what's wrong. Well long story short, after check for lean mixture, or late ignition, it seems that amount of coolant displaced by the water pump wasn't all that much. So, out with the water pump and the radiator. I did not found any restrictions in the radiator. I flushed it, clean water in, clean water out, no rust or black mud. Disassembly of the pump revealed a very worn impeller (see the picture). There is a hole in the one of  sides. Making in new impeller is out of the question (the car needs to be ready Friday next week), the solution I will try is: soldering a 0.04" thick bronze plate at the side, covering the hole and the worn side. It also will close the gap between the pump body and the impeller. I hope this will do the trick.

 

Sorry, but for some reason I can't upload pictures (error code 200)

 

Regards, Harm

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry for leaving you in suspense during nearly 4 long weeks😉. Here is my next installment.  The reason for the delay is a simple one, my lap top broke down. And that is the fault of the cat! We own (as far you can say that for a cat) 2 cats. One very sleepy and always hungry fat girl, and a happy large tom cat. See picture below of the guilty subject.

 

Cat.jpg.3965b6695283feabe6e44496edd0723c.jpg

Writing this installment, again with "support" of the lap top destroying cat. Nice spot, but not a wise spot for taking a nap (but what do I know of cat naps.....).

 

During the evening he loves to lay down on my lap and take a nap. Some time ago he came in, took a sprint and jumped straight on my lap top which I had just balancing on my lap. Lap top and cat fell down to the floor, the tom cat landed on his back on my lap top. So much for the old wife's tale "cats always land on their feet". Looked hilarious, but after that event, the lap top became slower and slower and WiFi connections became quite erratic. After my previous installment of august 25, it gave up the ghost. I did not like buying a new one, so lets see whats inside the case and look for broken parts. Used Ann's PC to see if some "How To repair your lap top" could be found on the Web. Well many more than I needed. Long story short, Wifi cables where broken and the hard disk was not in an acceptable condition anymore. So I replaced the hard disk for a SSD and bought an external WiFi dongle. Further more I replaced the key pad. Total cost $85.-. A new one would have set me back $750.-. But all in all it took a lot of time. But the lap top is very fast now.

 

Progress of the Cleveland:  none

 

Progress of the Flanders20 water pump repair: done and OK

 

1284014532_impellerwaterpumpFlanders20.jpg.12fa69aac160caac495576386a1d34aa.jpg

Water pump impeller with nasty hole on the right side

 

610254426_Impellerandrepairpart.jpg.e575f4b77a8d8939bc9359da5bd41f3a.jpg

Impeller and repair sheet

 

Progress of the Ford model A Roadster:  some.

Still sanding and priming, managed to lay down one semi final coat of paint. I am not happy with the result, still some slight dents/waves. So next week some filler and sanding must be done. Furthermore sanding the gas tank showed a nasty leak located at the steering bracket on the gas tank. This is a well known Ford model A problem. This afternoon I started to remove the bracket, and indeed after removal, a small tear showed up. Welding can not be done, so instead I will solder a small strip of brass over the tear also will solder small brass patches over the grind-ed flat rivet ends.

 

 

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Ford roadster body, outside filler/primer done, sanding done. Painted the inside and underside with a final coat of paint.

 

body first time painted.jpg

First coat of paint, more filler and sanding must be done😟

 

Our first outing:

After two years of not having toured with our cars (Covid restrictions), 3 weeks ago we had our first event. We attended a 3 day tour. It was  located near the Dutch German border, we drove mainly in the province of Drenthe ( North Eastern part of the Netherlands).  Perfectly organized, beautiful weather, nice cars and good company. And the food and the wine weren't bad either 😁. Friday 40 miles, Saturday 90 miles and Sunday 30 miles. The Flanders behaved well, it ran better and better, no overheating anymore. All cars (about 25) finished well, not a single break down. A number of stunning cars attended the 3 day tour (see pictures below). Most of the cars where European brands, just 6 USA build cars Flanders, Buick Chrysler and 3 Fords.

 

1010933348_HispanoSuizaH6C.jpg.bf99ff4b23e702bcb7a0a5bdf00199ac.jpg

Hispano Suiza, H6B 1924, with the large 8 liter engine (not many are build with these engine)

 

1733405076_RRSilverGost.jpg.372d01dcfe571b463e211f627e1e33b0.jpg

1912 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost

 

104038454_RRPhantom1boattail.jpg.30ab99d4fb83503829dd163bd341cf2b.jpg

1929 Rolls Royce Phantom I, boat tail body

 

328247592_RRPhantomITourer.jpg.6b4135f569abac3cf3d84ccea693504c.jpg

1917? Rolls Royce Phantom I, tourer body

 

2125853242_ChryslerSportsRoadster.jpg.eb4a4acfdfa9fbee45ebdd0a2d68b477.jpg

1928 Buick Standard Roadster

 

2146602692_Overzichtfoto.jpg.04b0d0010b2c94d7b631d37f24e5b8ff.jpg

Ford Model A Phaeton, Ford Model A Roadster, Morris Eight Tourer, Chrysler Sports Roadster

 

Flanders20.jpg.33babf14a6785393ed84848e897bdfa6.jpg

1911 Flanders20 (ours)

 

Next weekend we will attend another 3 day tour, celebrating the 65th anniversary of our club (Pionier Automobielen Club).

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

Most days I rise early in the morning around 6:30 AM, but, before I know it, its 5:00 PM. So I have just one complaint: there are not enough hours in a day 😁. Since my last installment,  I am still busy sanding and painting the Ford Roadster, tedious labor. Autumn is already approaching and the temperature is dropping, painting outside will soon be impossible, so I am in a bit of a hurry.... Last Monday I painted the whole body,  and started Thursday, masking the body for painting the moldings. Took me nearly two days to finish that masking job. Yesterday (Saturday) I painted the moldings and removed all the masking, took me just 1 hr.... The colors are: primary color Stone Brown, Secondary color Stone Deep Gray, pinstripe and wheels Tacoma Cream.

 

IMG_0850.jpg.e8f686d3d6ad35f6a1ffc6cd9680fb59.jpg

Drivers side of the body masked

 

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Passengers side of the body masked

 

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Passengers side

 

IMG_0857.jpg.dec4a6258589a9a658abb2e50ec55fdb.jpg

Drivers side

 

Cleveland

Today I started machining the castings of the brake drums. First I milled the undersides of the castings, this gave me a reference plane . After that I drilled the holes for the clamping bolts (1/2" x 1 1/2")  these bolts should keep the two halves together. Ran into an awkward problem. The bolts fit the brake drum for the smaller axle, but not the brake drum for the the sleeve axle. There is just not enough space between the inside rib on the brake drum and the hole to put the bolt in. Nice problem to solve tomorrow.

 

IMG_0854.jpg.7348819af5d8e6b08263218253b0959d.jpg

Milled underside of brake drum halve (holes drilled after milling)

 

IMG_0851.jpg.b5b67077e740a4788f576a6d060c07a9.jpg

Holes drilled for the clamping bolts

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
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Hmm... could you use a stud secured with a nut on each end?  Meanwhile I will take a look at our drawings etc. to see if we got something not-quite-right.

I feel bad about this! I like it when everything works as intended.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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Hello Terry,

Please don't feel bad about it. Your drawings are 100% correct, but the copy of the catalog I send you is a bit ambiguous about the bolt. The photograph shows square bolts but the drawing shows standard 6 sided bolts. This morning I had a phone call with the owner of the a 1903  Mitchell . After explaining my problem, he told me don't use 'standard bolts and nuts' as they can not be inserted. And don't use 7/16"bolts! Yes they will fit, but they are no good to keep the brake drum halves together. I did not ask him 'how do you know" 😉? His advice was: Just make the bolts your self and make them with square heads. Make them as short as possible and use a thin nut. The square head should fit against the small ridge with is left after milling the part where the holes are located (this evening I will make a drawing to show 'what I think he meant' and post it) . This would give me enough space to insert the bolts. At final assembly use some Loctite. So the photograph with the square headed bolt is correct. Tomorrow I will give it a try.

Regards,

Harm

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I was very curious if the solution of the Mitchell owner would work. So I fired up the lathe and the mill and made a square head bolt.

No it did not fit, made it shorter, still no fit. Made it shorter again, yes it fits but 2 treads left to put a nut on. No good,  sigh... What to do? Made some drawings and figured out that when I mill the hole under a slight angle ( 6 degrees) on the upper part of the hole just where the bold should enter the hole, it should be  possible to slide the bolt in...... As pictures tell more than a thousand words, below some explanatory pictures.

Clipboard01.jpg.c98bea197de52970b9c4147ceea0349d.jpg

Black is the hole through the brake drum, purple the slightly elongated hole.

 

IMG_0863.jpg.e3746f9378e60dda4a972144e609e9d6.jpg

Picture of the elongated hole, the elongation isn't much ( < 1/16" )

 

IMG_0858.jpg.d4114c8b955405a8ac31d0cb3192b284.jpg

Brake drum and home made 1/2" x 2 7/32" bolt with thin head

 

IMG_0861.jpg.9b9ce34f035e7dde3192cbea29bc8b04.jpg

Not much space left between the drum reinforcement rib and the bolt head.

 

IMG_0862.jpg.7c48c4fea55bec86e4b5acae9e2abb21.jpg

At last success.

 

Regards,

Harm

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  • 3 weeks later...

A very informative thread.  I looked at the whole thread over a couple of days and was most interested in the pin-striping, babit metal and line boring parts.  Also someone mentioned about a car having the dippers on the rods removed and causing it to wear out quick.  My original engine in my 23 dodge didn't appear to have dippers. I had another engine so I stripped that as well. It had dippers as part of the con rods so my original engine looks like they ground them off.  After measuring the bores I found three cylinders had 7-8 thou taper and one had 16 thou taper.

[ all standard size even after 98 years ]  The pistons had 4-8 thou taper between the area under the rings to the bottom of the skirts. I wouldn't be surprised  if it smoked like hell so the removed the dippers to reduce it.  Who Knows. 

Harm, you have so much gear. I am jealous. All I have are my motor mechanic skills plus a lathe, portable boring bar and welders plus many hand tools.

 

I wish you luck with this restoration. What you have done so far is amazing.

 

Dereck

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9 hours ago, cutdown said:

A very informative thread.  I looked at the whole thread over a couple of days and was most interested in the pin-striping, babit metal and line boring parts.  Also someone mentioned about a car having the dippers on the rods removed and causing it to wear out quick.  My original engine in my 23 dodge didn't appear to have dippers. I had another engine so I stripped that as well. It had dippers as part of the con rods so my original engine looks like they ground them off.  After measuring the bores I found three cylinders had 7-8 thou taper and one had 16 thou taper.

[ all standard size even after 98 years ]  The pistons had 4-8 thou taper between the area under the rings to the bottom of the skirts. I wouldn't be surprised  if it smoked like hell so the removed the dippers to reduce it.  Who Knows. 

Harm, you have so much gear. I am jealous. All I have are my motor mechanic skills plus a lathe, portable boring bar and welders plus many hand tools.

 

I wish you luck with this restoration. What you have done so far is amazing.

 

Dereck

 

Hello Dereck,

Thank you for your kind words.

The dipper question on the Cleveland is still a thing I am pondering about. Regrettably the Cleveland restoration landed a bit on the back burner 😪.  To many projects; painting the farm, mending the garden, restoring the Ford roadster, all taking a lot of time. Sigh, just not enough usable hours in a day 😉.

Thank you for the well wishing.  I will try coming (dark) months to spend a lot more time at the shop. First thing to do, finishing the brake drums and completing the rear axle. Second task: I must lay an egg about the dipper or other means of oil collecting for the piston rod.

Regards,

Harm

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5 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I think I'd have made a stud and threaded it into one side, maybe with a locknut on the end.

 

Hello Joe,

I thought about this solution. But as I wish to stay close to the original drawings, I decided to go for the 'slightly' elongated hole.

Regards,

Harm

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On my doges engines the dippers are protruding down on the con rod caps. The hole in the cap for the oil is ahead of the dipper relative to engine rotation.

Not sure about the horizontal engine but perhaps in your case the hole in the rod should face into the direction of rotation as well.  If the piston is laying behind the crank case [ relative to the vehicle axis ], then it would suggest the hole go to the bottom.  Maybe the con rod nuts are supposed to contact the surface of the oil in the crank case.  Not sure how your engine works.  Something to think about. [ the oil level maybe critical in your case!! ] Is it possible there was a removable dipper the fitted under the head of the bolt in the con rod?

 

Dereck

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

Again a distraction of the restoration of the Cleveland....

At this forum:

We acquired an Oakland with a "little" work.

I made a separate  topic about the Oakland, just not to spoil the Cleveland topic more that it already is 😉.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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