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64 Riv Engine

OIB63

By OIB63
in Buick Riviera

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JZRIV 10,000+ Points

JZRIV

Posted
Posted

There are too many variables when it comes to a nailhead to buy a prepackaged kit but that's just 1 opinion. You or your chosen rebuilder first have to access the condition of your engine and what all is required and or desired as far as a rebuild before you start buying parts. I'd personally only deal with Tom Telesco (Known as Telriv here on forum) in CT or Russ Martin at Centerville Auto in CA.

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telriv 10,000+ Points

telriv

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Myself I wouldn't buy ANYTHING  from Egge. IF your lucky you may end up with 8-1 compression or less as their pistons are made to cover ALL variables. Not a good choice as most parts supplied are foreign cheapo stuff.  They just fill the box with what they have available & can supply easily.

   For what it costs to build a "Nail" you want it to run at least as good as before you removed it.  Same goes with machine shops who most ALWAYS apply SBC rebuilding techniques which don't work on a "Nail".

   Shop CAREFULLY for parts & a machine shop or you may end up to be one of those with ANOTHER horror story.

 

Tom T.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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Telriv,

I have rebuilt SBC, Pontiacs and Chevy 409's.  My last being the 409.  Went through several cam because of the oil issues we now have with flat tappet cams.  I eventually went with a Comp Cam roller cam and lifters.  Never had another issue and could run with the new oils.  I'm assuming you are still using flat tappet cams, but are there roller cam available for the Nailheads?  My thought would be to spend the extra $$$ for the roller lifter (cam cost is a wash between the two) and then no need to worry about breakin.  Your thoughts.

 

Thanks,

Art

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telriv 10,000+ Points

telriv

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Art,

 

   Your not thinking about the associated parts that go along with a roller cam.  By the time all is said & done it can cost up to 2K extra. Now you have to deal with the hydraulic lifters that will normally come in the "Kit".  For sure you don't want to deal with all that incurs for extra costs.  So what I'm tryin' to say is it's not just plug & play. There's an extra cost for upgrades & this is an important step.

  I know a few that are using rollers & the benefits can be rewarding. The extra costs not so much.   When I have a flat tappet cam made I spend the extra to have it nitrided as an extra precaution.  So far doing it this way I haven't had a problem.

 

    Years ago when I was racing a '63 Impala 409/425 we had problems with the cams. One wore out while adjusting valves.  Turns out we had one of the defective blocks that had the lifter bores not correct from the factory. Now this is when the oils had high amounts of zinc & phosphorous.

   I have also done Pontiac 400 & 455's that had the same problems along with SBC.

 

   So none of them are impervious to these problems.  LOTS of the proper cam lube, correct oils, pre-lubing/priming, etc.

 

Tom T.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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Tom T.

Understand, but I was not thinking so much about a kit (rebuild).  Other than a gasket kit, I have always selected the components,  piston, bearings, rings, etc.  Well hyd, lifter are really pretty cheap for flat tappet cam, but yes hyd. roller lifters are a different story.  I know alot of people still build with hyd. flat tappet cams and lifters, but for me never ever again.  Two reason, 1. No cam break in required, build it, drive it.  2. No more additives or buying that special oil with high anti-wear Zinc.

My question was, do you know of hyd roller cams and lifters for 425ci?

 

Thank,

Art

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RivNut 25,000+ Points

RivNut

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Find some of the threads that discuss oils.  There are a number of conventional oils on the market that meet the needs of flat tappet cams.  As long as the zinc and phosphorus levels exceed 1,000 rpm (parts per million) they are usable.

 

A friend of mine attended the latest SEMA show and sat in on a discussion of oils.  Besides the 1,000 ppm the other thing that stood out was the oil manufactures statements that additives upset the blends and often do more harm than good by adding too much zinc and phosphorous.  Look at the data for some of the Mobil 1 synthetics and Shell's Rotella.  There are a large number of older cars running that have not switched to roller cams/lifters.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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All,

My point was that when rebuilding your Nailhead and spending anywhere from $2500 - $4000 (or whatever it may be) for the rebuild what is it to spend another $600 - $800 for the added benefit and reliability and easy of maintenance.  I never said that flat tappets cam were bad, it's the oil that the manufacturer changed and they have changed it several time since the mid 90's, SE to now I think it's SN.  Even the Rotella has changed.  Yes, flat tappets cams are still in use, my 67 Firebird 400 I built in the 90's still has it flat tappet cam and yes I have go find the right oil or additive just to make sure that I get the right protection. 

 

I was asking a question if roller cam/lifters are available for the Buick Nailhead 425, because if they are I would consider it if I was going to rebuild mine.

 

I know what the major oil manufacturer state, I have been to their meeting and spoke with their rep's at show and they failed the car hobbyist for many year with nothing until recently and they still do not give us many choices.  I think the Mobil 1 is a 20 - 50?  I know there are special brands of oil out there too.

 

Art 

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RivNut 25,000+ Points

RivNut

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2 hours ago, awk409ak said:

All,

My point was that when rebuilding your Nailhead and spending anywhere from $2500 - $4000 (or whatever it may be) for the rebuild what is it to spend another $600 - $800 for the added benefit and reliability and easy of maintenance.  I never said that flat tappets cam were bad, it's the oil that the manufacturer changed and they have changed it several time since the mid 90's, SE to now I think it's SN.  Even the Rotella has changed.  Yes, flat tappets cams are still in use, my 67 Firebird 400 I built in the 90's still has it flat tappet cam and yes I have go find the right oil or additive just to make sure that I get the right protection. 

 

I was asking a question if roller cam/lifters are available for the Buick Nailhead 425, because if they are I would consider it if I was going to rebuild mine.

 

I know what the major oil manufacturer state, I have been to their meeting and spoke with their rep's at show and they failed the car hobbyist for many year with nothing until recently and they still do not give us many choices.  I think the Mobil 1 is a 20 - 50?  I know there are special brands of oil out there too.

 

Art 

TA Performance offers a NH roller cam/lifers.

 

Mobil 1 Synthetic comes in a plethora of viscosities and applications.  Check out the website.  I use 10W-30 in my 90; 10W-40 High Mileage in my 94 Roadmaster, and 20W-50 in the nailheads.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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Ed,

Thanks for the info on the cam.  I'm not currently look at a rebuild, but wanted to know if there was anyone out there manufacturing them.  I know of the 20W-50 and running with it now, but was thinking of changing before winter to a lighter oil, maybe 10W-30 or 10W-40.  They don't have it in the high Zine oil.  There are other brands out there that do, so I'll look around.

 

Thanks,

Art

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Seafoam65 10,000+ Points

Seafoam65

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All you have to do is go online and buy some bottles of ZDDP. One bottle in the oil at every oil change. Then 

you can use regular over the counter motor oil of your choice. Valvoline makes 10W-30 racing oil with zinc in it, but it is very expensive.

Buying the ZDDP is the best way to go.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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Seafoam65,

 

Your right, I know that and have done that many times and will continue to use the additive on the cars that need it.  I was just throwing an option and an opinion out there (and experience) with roller cams/lifters.  I think there are some pretty good reason why the auto manufactures went with technology in 86-87.  I think I made my point, nobody has to like it.  Just an opinion.😊

 

Art

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telriv 10,000+ Points

telriv

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Ed.

 

You mean a 5 quart jug correct???      Not a 5 gallon jug???

 

AND, one of the reasons the oils were changed is because it prolonged the life of the cat converter so the manufacturers could extend the warranty on emission items to 100K as mandated by the FEDS. Removing the zinc/phosphorus from oils  was a necessity for the extended ranges of warranty's.

 

Tom T.

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jsgun 2,500+ Points

jsgun

Posted
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I had a HO Ford 302, it was one of the fastest revving engines i've seen with the exception of a rotary. I believe that was partly due to the roller cam. At some point in the future i'd like a roller cam and rockers in my nailhead, but i'm not doing anything with the car that I need it to rev fast. 

 

I've read that http://schneidercams.com will do one for special order.

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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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That is true!!  The auto manufacturers also stated to save their cat converters, they did not need the anti wear (zinc/phosphorus) in the oil because they were already using roller cams/lifters since 86/87.

 

I was just on the Mobil 1 website.  I had thought their higher zinc level oil was 20W-50 (it may have been), but now I see their high zinc level is Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 with 1850ppm of zinc.  https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/product-faqs/product-faqs?By+product+type=Motor+oils&View=20&Page=3

When I read though all of the questions and answers on which oil I should use, I come away scratching my head.  This is part of the reason why I sometimes agree with the idea of adding my own additive to the oil.  Unless I'm really missing something and I very well could be they really don't answer the questions.

 

(Edit) I know we discuss oils in the past.   I know oil is also continuously changing, so addressing it again may not be a bad thing. 

Please correct me!

 

Art

Edited by awk409ak (see edit history)
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awk409ak 2,500+ Points

awk409ak

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All,

I emailed Mobil 1 and got a nice reply already.  I have been running the 15W-50, I think we have discussed this sometime in May of this year when I was new to the forum.   Here's the email from Mobil 1;

Art

 

 

 

Art,

 

Thank you for writing to us. For a pre-1980 era engine, one of our criteria is usually to focus on oils with 1000 parts per million of zinc or better, to take good care of a flat tappet camshaft. We've got several oils that fit this profile. 

 

One great option is our Mobil 1 0W-40 “European Car Formula.” This has a zinc content of 1100ppm, and will recoat your bearings a bit faster than a 5W-40 can at engine start up.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-fs#0W-40

 

If the engine is running a bit hotter, and can benefit from a 50, we have Mobil 1 15W-50, with a zinc content of 1300ppm.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1#15W-50

 

Finally, we have Mobil 1 5W-50 with a zinc content of 1100ppm. This oil can be hard to find on the shelf, though.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-fs#5W-50

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thank you for choosing Mobil, 

 

Carol

Mobil Help Desk Team

If I can help further with this inquiry or with any other questions, please respond to this email or phone us 1-800-ASK-Mobil

Edited by awk409ak (see edit history)
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jsgun 2,500+ Points

jsgun

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I bought lucas break in oil for my car, the engine supposedly has less than 200 miles on it. I picked up a pre-luber on ebay, got it cheap and thought I might try it out. It's an electric pump that pulls oil from the pan and pushes it into the gallery to get every oiled. Builds about 30 or 40 lbs oil pressure before you start the engine. Lots of arguments on the internet if it's worth it but I don't see any harm.

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RivNut 25,000+ Points

RivNut

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On 10/15/2019 at 11:56 PM, jsgun said:

I bought lucas break in oil for my car, the engine supposedly has less than 200 miles on it. I picked up a pre-luber on ebay, got it cheap and thought I might try it out. It's an electric pump that pulls oil from the pan and pushes it into the gallery to get every oiled. Builds about 30 or 40 lbs oil pressure before you start the engine. Lots of arguments on the internet if it's worth it but I don't see any harm.

Use an old distributor.  Stick it in making sure it engages the oil pump.  Put a drill on it and spin it until you see oil going everywhere it should.  This ensures the oil pump is working as well.  

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