38 Olds starter going backwards ??

[jollygreengiant]

Hi everyone,

This is going to sound stupid, but has anyone ever had an issue with a starter going backwards ? I picked up a 38 Olds L38. I got the engine loosened up so it spins ok after a 50 year nap. When I try to start it I can hear the starter spin but it doesn't turn the engine. I removed the starter and the bendix does slide back and forth as it should. Jumped it and it does spin, I pushed the bendix out and spun it both ways. One way the bendix free spins and the other way it grabs and turns the stator. Has anyone ever encountered a starter running backwards ? If so what did you do to fix it ? I did try switching the cables around from positive ground to negative ground just to see if it made a difference and it did nothing......... Any help would sure be appreciated !!  Thanks

[Guest]

What makes you think the starter is spinning backwards?  I suspect the starter is spinning correctly and that your problem is the starter drive gear is not engaging the ring gear.  Try rocking the car forward or backward so the engine turns a little bit.  A six cylinder internal combustion engine tends to stop in one of three spots.  Often over the years the ring gear teeth get worn or burred in these three places.  Some times the ring gear can be removed, turned over and replaced or simply removed and turned a few degrees and re installed.

By the way a "bendix" is a specific style of starter drive that spins out into the ring gear by the inertia of the starter armature and then is spun back out of the ring gear by the inertia of the flywheel.

If your car has a foot operated starter or a solenoid to engage the drive with the ring gear it is simply a "starter drive", not a bendix.

Sort of like a rifle is a gun but a gun is not necessarily a rifle or a open end wrench is a tool but a tool is not necessarily a wrench.

[GARY F]

I have  an L-37. It is negative ground.  Mine also was not run since 1975.  Every one of my valve lifters were frozen in the up position. so I pulled the head.

[jollygreengiant]

Was thinking possibly running backwards because when I push the lever for the starter drive the starter drive slides to the end of the shaft it rides on. There isn't any damage on the drive gear or the flywheel. Would think I would hear some kind of grinding if it weren't engaging properly. Not sure if it suppose to be positive or negative ground, I have read both on line and the engine block has a red cable going to the block and the black goes to the starter. So????. I love working on these old cars, although it can be a learning experience at times .

[jollygreengiant]

Also maybe I have the wrong model ? it is the straight eight engine in a 4 dr sedan

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

If you can not look at the engine and know how many cylinders,  you need a mechanic!

 

  Ben

[maok]

If you have taken the starter out of the engine, take a pic of it and post here.

 

The pinion gear (on the bendix) will turn in the opposite direction relatively to the armature initially to get to the end of the armature so it can get engaged with the ring gear on the flywheel. Once at the end of the armature, it locks and turns with the armature.

 

Your starter is turning it the correct direction, regardless of the polarity of the wiring to it. As been mentioned, its most likely getting stuck in the ring gear.

Edited May 25, 2019 by maok (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Original starter motor was a 729J in '37 & '38 8 cyl. Olds.  No interchange is shown in The Hollander for the starter assembly but there are many for the armature and the starter drive.

[Spinneyhill]

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

If you can not look at the engine and know how many cylinders,  you need a mechanic!

 

  Ben

Pardon? The L38 was 8 cylinders. The F38 was six.

[Frank DuVal]

To reverse the direction a starter motor turns requires changing the wiring to the field coils (or armature). Unless someone did this while it was apart, making new internal wiring straps to accomplish this, the starter is turning in the direction it was made to by Delco. Changing polarity of wiring to the starter, which is a series wound device, does not change direction.

[jollygreengiant]

I mentioned maybe I was incorrect about the model because Tin Indian referenced a 6 cylinder, and this is the eight .I appreciate the help guys. For the record Ben Bruce I have been working on cars for aprox 30 years and am not familiar with this old of a car. That's why I turned to this site,  comments like that  could sour a person`s want to come back to this site. How do we keep people , especially todays younger people  interested in these old cars if they feel they cant reach out for help because some ass will try to make them feel stupid. Maybe that's part of the reason they stick to imports, maybe its easier to get the help they need .........

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

Original starter motor was a 729J in '37 & '38 8 cyl. Olds. 

 

http://restoringcornelius.com/files/29-48 Delco Remy.pdf

 

It looks like that has manual engagement with a pedal, and the linkage literally pushes the switch after the gear is engaged. I have the same setup, more or less, on a 36 Pontiac. It uses a starter drive gear with an overrunning clutch inside.

 

If this is what you have, the gear should have to be engaged before the linkage would hit the switch to turn the starter on.

 

I would verify that the linkage actually pushes the gear out, just to be sure that the fork hasn't worn clear through and/or the internal linkage is not screwed up somehow. If you can verify that the linkage does indeed positively push the gear out, then the trouble HAS to be with the overrunning clutch in the starter drive (gear). If that is the case, you need a whole new starter drive (gear). They do not come apart for service.

 

The most common failure of a starter drive is exactly what you describe. The starter motor turns, but does not turn the engine.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

It looks like that has manual engagement with a pedal, and the linkage literally pushes the switch after the gear is engaged.

Wow, great link Bloo. Lots of excellent reference material.

 

1 hour ago, jollygreengiant said:

maybe its easier to get the help they need

dunno about that. Anyway, let it go. Now, interchanges for the starter drive:

[Bloo]

It looks as if it is the same as 37 Buick 80 then. I obtained one of those starter drives from Bobs Automobilia in fairly recent times (maybe 4 years ago).

[jollygreengiant]

Thanks Guys!! I appreciate all of your help ! Will look for a starter

[Guest]

I apologize, I did not remember that an L is an eight.  I was using the six as an example.  I suspect, but do not know for sure, that an eight probably has four places where it usually stops.  What Bloo said about the linkage is correct.  If it were me I would pull the inspection cover and check the ring gear before buying anything.  Then adjust the linkage.

If the ring gear is damaged it will very quickly damage a new starter drive.

One thing to remember is that the starter pedal needs to be pushed down sharply, not gently to the floor.  The lever throws the drive gear into mesh just before the starter starts to turn.  My Pontiac (500,000 miles) even withe the linkage adjusted properly doesn't engage properly about every tenth time.

[Bloo]

For what it's worth, on these old ones we usually rebuild rather than replace. Its easier than finding another, and usually the end result is better.

 

If it is not the sort of thing you want to tackle yourself, look for an "Auto Electric" shop in your area. Many areas have one. For instance, around the Seattle area there is this: https://www.romaineelectric.com/

 

An auto electric shop can probably get the starter drive (and any other worn parts), but if not, Bob's remains a possibility.

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 5/24/2019 at 9:21 PM, Spinneyhill said:

Pardon? The L38 was 8 cylinders. The F38 was six.

 

 Yeah, I misread and was feeling testy. Sorry.

 

  Ben

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:14 PM, jollygreengiant said:

I mentioned maybe I was incorrect about the model because Tin Indian referenced a 6 cylinder, and this is the eight .I appreciate the help guys. For the record Ben Bruce I have been working on cars for aprox 30 years and am not familiar with this old of a car. That's why I turned to this site,  comments like that  could sour a person`s want to come back to this site. How do we keep people , especially todays younger people  interested in these old cars if they feel they cant reach out for help because some ass will try to make them feel stupid. Maybe that's part of the reason they stick to imports, maybe its easier to get the help they need .........

 

 Sorry you were offended. I mis-read and was being a smart ass.   Been working on them for more---- ah, forget it..

 

  Ben

[jollygreengiant]

No worries Ben Bruce, I do appreciate the help from everyone. I have a tendency to be a smart ass my self from time to time.........  

[GARY F]

So what is the end results????

[chistech]

Just a quick question. Are there teeth on the ring gear where the motor is stopped? I’ve seen that before. The linkage should move the gear assembly in all the way just as contact is made on the starter button mounted on the started. Is that raven correctly moving all the way? If you had the starter out and the gear assembly spins when you powered it up, we’re you holding the linkage fork back to force the gear to the tip of the starter? Did you try having someone put a piece of wood on the gears while you applied power to see if the gear is simply turning because there’s no load on them? The starter armature shaft have a groove in it and the gear assembly has a molded in key that keeps the shaft from spinning inside the assembly. The key could be sheared off. The L38 starter is not much different than the F32 starter of my car. The starter pedal spring is also crucial to pull the gear assembly out of the ring gear as pressure is taken off the pedal. Without the spring, the weight of the pedal alone will keep the starter gear engaged.

[Andre Wolhuter]

Good morning everyone

 

I am desperate

 

I am looking for a starter motor Delco Remy Model number 725Q Serial number 94787, or just the starter drive for a 1931 Dodge DH 6 sedan.

[certjeff1]

I have plenty of those starter drives NOS.