No Spark in my '63 Riv

[TampaRiv]

Hello guys,  well, I had my starter rebuilt and got ready to attempt a start, but no luck.  The fresh starter seems to crank kinda slow.  There doesn't appear to be spark.   I changed the plugs and wires.  Coil was just recently changed by the previous owner who could not get the car started.  He also changed points, condenser, rotor, and cap. All ignition parts are new.

 

   I could not figure out how to set the points...with the weights on top of the distributor, there isn't any way to see the points and gap them.  There is the set screw for the points, but I am not familiar with how to use it.   Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.   Rich in Tampa

[Jim Cannon]

Rich-

The point gap on GM vehicles is set with a dwell meter.  You open the little sliding window on the side of the distributor cap and inset the allen wrench into the points.  Start the engine and adjust the points to get the desired dwell reading.

 

You need to systematically trouble shoot your ignition.  Don't just start throwing parts at it.

 

Make sure you have power to the coil with the key on.  Make sure you STILL have power when cranking the starter.  If not, bad key switch or burned out wire in harness.

 

Make sure the wire from the distributor is connected to the negative post of the coil.  The power feed to the coil goes on the positive post.  They are labeled - and +.

 

Pul the wire out of the center of the distributor cap and hold it close to a piece of metal while someone cranks the engine.  You should see lots of sparks jumping from the end of that wire to the ground.  If not, no spark and the engine won't run.  But if you have a spark there, then you need to figure out why no spark at the plugs.  Bad or missing rotor?  Severely out of time?  It is possible for the timing mark to be used and have the rotor 180 degrees out of position.  Make sure you have compression on #1 cylinder as your rotor is coming around to the #1 plug position of the distributor cap.  NOTE: #1 plug is in right front of engine, by the alternator.  It is possible previous owner timed to wrong plug.

 

Good luck.

[TampaRiv]

Thanks Jim,  I do have power to the coil with the key on.  I will need to wait until my wife gets home to test the coil wire for spark.  The new starter cranks slowly, and both the negative and positive battery terminals get hot.  Any ideas about that condition?  Thanks again Jim,  Rich

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, TampaRiv said:

Thanks Jim,  I do have power to the coil with the key on.  I will need to wait until my wife gets home to test the coil wire for spark.  The new starter cranks slowly, and both the negative and positive battery terminals get hot.  Any ideas about that condition?  Thanks again Jim,  Rich

  If your "new" starter is pulling excessive current while cranking it may be pulling system voltage so low that you dont have adequate spark. Test for spark as Jim suggests above but it doesnt sound like your starter is doing you any favors.

  You should be able to adjust the point gap with a feeler gauge if you dont have a dwell meter. Even if the point gap adjustment is "off" the engine will still start. Rotate the engine until you witness the point set rubbing block on the high point of the distributor lobe. At that point there should be a small gap between the points.

Tom Mooney

[Jim Cannon]

Any time an electrical connection (like the battery posts) get hot when in use, that is a sign of high resistance at that point.  So you need to look at the battery cables, possibly need to replace them.  Clean the cable ends.  Clean the battery posts.  Tighten the clamps.

 

Tom was also implying, but you may not have understood what he was saying, that your new starter may, in fact, be a piece of junk and it may be drawing an excessive amount of current when you are cranking the engine.  That will also make the cable ends get very hot.  And it will draw the voltage down that is coming off of the battery and going to the coil.  This gives you a weak or no spark.

 

When the engine is being cranked over by the starter, use a volt meter and read the actual voltage that you are seeing at the coil + post while cranking.  Report that here.

 

 

[TampaRiv]

Thanks guys.  I'm trying to do things right.  That's why I had the starter rebuilt at a reputable local shop.  He tested it before I paid for the rebuild today, and it seemed to be running great.  The connections at the starter were thoroughly cleaned during installation, and the battery connections are clean, the battery is almost new.  I was definitely expecting a more robust  crank, but it's slow and as I stated, the cables get hot. It's hard to imagine that the starter is defective, after a rebuild and a bench test that shows it in perfect working order, right?    Is there any solenoid or relay between the battery and the starter, like on a Ford?   If so, perhaps this unit is defective, or connections at that unit might need cleaning?

 

   Tom, thanks for your comments.  I can't see the cam block in the distributor to see when it opens the points, and I sure can't see the points contact surface to get a feeler gauge on it to check the gap.   I will check the spark at the coil and report back.   Thanks again for the help.  Any of you guys located in Tampa?

 

Rich

[telriv]

IF it doesn't have at least 1 gauge OR better yet 0 gauge battery cables will make the starter crank slow. You should also check voltage drop while cranking. IF you are using repair clamps they could ALSO be drawing an excessive amount or resistance causing the cables to get hot.

[TampaRiv]

Thanks telriv.  I'll give the cables another look tomorrow.  They look pretty legit, but I'll make sure they're OK and if not, I'll swap them out.  Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

 

Rich

[RivNut]

You cannot find 0 or 00 gauge wire at you local jobbers hanging on the rack.  I had to have a local starter/alternator rebuilder make mine for me - soldered terminals, one positive and one negative; no one size fits all.  0 gauge wire is about 1/2" thick not including insulation.  

[Jim Cannon]

3 hours ago, TampaRiv said:

    Is there any solenoid or relay between the battery and the starter, like on a Ford?   If so, perhaps this unit is defective, or connections at that unit might need cleaning?

 

 

Rich

 

Yes, the solenoid is mounted to the side of the starter.  If it was bench tested, then the solenoid should have been attached.  It throws the starter drive gear out to engage with the flywheel ring gear.

 

The starter solenoid is installed near the exhaust manifold, so it gets hot.  The grease inside the solenoid cylinder dries out with time. So when the starter is rebuilt, it is a good idea to clean and grease the plunger inside the solenoid cylinder so that it all slides freely.  Your rebuilder should have done that.

 

HTH.

[KongaMan]

Slow cranking and hot cables are abnormal.  Check the connections at both ends of the battery cables (IOW, pull the cables, clean the connections, and reassemble)Don't forget to check the cable that goes from the junction post by the horn relay to the starter.  Check your ground at the starter.  Don't discount the possibility that the starter is bad.  Lots of things work on the bench.  

 

Got a timing light?  Hook it up to a plug -- any plug -- and see if it flashes when cranking.

 

To set the points, take off the distributor cap, rotate the engine until the points are all the way open, then check the gap with a matchbook cover.  As mentioned earlier, it will start with the dwell set anywhere in the ballpark.

You haven't said how you know the problem is spark instead of fuel.  So, check for fuel.  Or blast some starter fluid down the carb to see if it fires.

 

Has the engine been apart?  If it has, the timing chain might be installed wrong.  Or the timing gear might be shot.

 

Finally (or first), buy a shop manual.  All of this (including setting the initial timing) is explained in great detail.

[Garysriv]

11 hours ago, TampaRiv said:

Thanks telriv.  I'll give the cables another look tomorrow.  They look pretty legit, but I'll make sure they're OK and if not, I'll swap them out.  Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

 

Rich

Tampariv, I had the same issue on my 65 that sat for 30+ years, cranked really slow.  Put in another starter no change.  It wasn't the starter, it was years of gum in the cylinder bores.  Try this.  Take all the plugs out and squirt some oil in each cylinder, then crank the motor 10 secs or so without the plugs in (old blanket comes in handy here).   Then another squirt of oil, plugs back in, then try and start it priming with gas.

 

I did finally get mine running but only for about 20 secs at a time, then the slow crank again so I had to do it over.  Probably did it 20 times.  Then I tried an oil/gas mix like a chain saw in the tank (this was after cleaning the tank and putting in new gas lines).  Ran longer but still froze up.  Finally ended up pulling the motor, the cylinders were just not getting oil as the rings were just filled with crud.

 

Hope you get it going.

[60FlatTop]

13 hours ago, telriv said:

IF it doesn't have at least 1 gauge OR better yet 0 gauge battery cables will make the starter crank slow. You should also check voltage drop while cranking. IF you are using repair clamps they could ALSO be drawing an excessive amount or resistance causing the cables to get hot.

 

A few years ago I bought a V12 Jaguar that the owner said needed a relay that was too expensive for him to buy. He could start the car for me, though, and he would include the glove on the passenger seat. You had to wear it when you started the car. A piece of #12/3 Romex was snaked up through the console. The ends in the cabin were stripped at about 2". Under the car one wire connected to the battery wire, the other to the starter post. When you touched the two wires together you sure did need the glove.

 

I just thought I would add that and remind that creativity is not always that obvious.

Bernie

[telriv]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where Rich mentioned that the car had been sitting for a long period of time. IF in fact that's the case then my recommendation would be to mix up some trans. fluid & some kind of rust penetrate & let it sit for a day or two.  Will have to add quite a bit to cover the pistons entirely. Definitely use blankets when cranking by the starter. I would turn it over by hand 1st. through a couple revolutions BEFORE the starter.  When REMOVING PLUGS loosen them up 1st. & if you can use compressed air to blow away ANY debris/dirt from falling into the cylinders. DON'T want to make matters worse.

 

Tom T. 

 

P.S.  IF the vehicle hasn't been started for a long time it would be best to remove the distributor & use a drill to crank over the oil pump to prime the engine to get oil where it needs to be & NOT start the engine dry.  Maybe drain the oil 1st. & put on a new filter while your at it.  Check the oil level beforehand. When you drain it see how much comes out. IF the dipstick read full & ONLY two quarts came out then the oil in the pan has gelled & the pan at that point would need to come off & ALL the junk cleaned out.

Doing ALL of this is just to make sure that you don't do any further damage that may not have been done already.

 

 

GOOD LUCK.

Edited March 9, 2019 by telriv (see edit history)

[Garysriv]

3 hours ago, telriv said:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where Rich mentioned that the car had been sitting for a long period of time.....

In a separate post he mentions he just bought the car and it had sat for 20 years but he could turn the crank so yeah, all the stuff you suggested is good.

[KongaMan]

If it sat for 20 years, there's a whole bunch of stuff to do before even trying to start it.

 

He might be lucky that it didn't start.  It may have prevented a to-do list from becoming a disaster.

 

See this thread: 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[TampaRiv]

Thanks KongaMan,   yes, the cylinders were lubricated, fluids drained and replaced, and most ignition parts were replaced. Gas is being drawn from a can on the ground (though no draw as yet).   I have used some starting fluid, but no dice.  Jim C. is walking me through some diagnostic scenarios, so things are progressing.

[RivNut]

When you state that you're pulling gas from a can on the ground, are you pulling it through the fuel pump or just trying to syphon it up?  You either need a pump or use gravity.  The carb won't pull gas to it. 

[TampaRiv]

Of course.  I removed the line from the gas tank going into the fuel pump, and attached a new line from there to the gas can.  I must seem like a real dummy...

[Garysriv]

1 hour ago, TampaRiv said:

Of course.  I removed the line from the gas tank going into the fuel pump, and attached a new line from there to the gas can.  I must seem like a real dummy...

I dont think so.  You'll get it.

[TampaRiv]

Thanks Gary.

[Garysriv]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:04 PM, TampaRiv said:

Thanks Gary.

any luck yet?

[TampaRiv]

Hi again Gary.   No luck yet.  I'm starting to think that my engine is suffering from the same problem yours did...just gummed up and need rebuilt.   And I'd be OK with that, but I gotta find a shop here in Tampa.  Anyone know of a shop down here?

[demon452]

Before jumping the gun on a full rebuild do a compression test, leak down test etc.. Could be not that bad or maybe it could be. Tests can determine what's going on. My 2 cents 

[TampaRiv]

Thanks Demon,   I have a mechanic who's in the BMW 2002 club coming over to help with some diagnostics.  I appreciate all the help here.