Pfeil Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 (edited) Got one for you Phil. This is a study in patience and perseverance!!! Edited November 3, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 On 9/30/2022 at 9:13 PM, PhilAndrews said: Someone has 3 flat-pan Hydra-Matic transmissions they're willing to strip for parts; data plates are as follows: Red, C9-35753 Yellow, 050-107524 Red, C51-35366 Mine is a Green, D51- transmission. Are any of those the same valve block as mine (ie not a dual-range), with the uprated/variable pressure handling for line modulation and reverse boost? Thanks Phil the earlier than 51 Hydra-Matics have a mechanical engaging reverse gear, in 51 it became a hydraulic engagement with a blocker piston, and 51 was the last year for the single range valve body. So the red C51 trans is only good one for you, out of those three you listed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share Posted November 4, 2022 24 minutes ago, pontiac1953 said: the earlier than 51 Hydra-Matics have a mechanical engaging reverse gear, in 51 it became a hydraulic engagement with a blocker piston, and 51 was the last year for the single range valve body. So the red C51 trans is only good one for you, out of those three you listed. Yeah. That's the one I'm looking to get the valve block from. Something is getting hung up halfway because occasionally mine will engage the park pawl before the cone clutch engages. If I'm not at a complete stop, RRRAAAKKKK CLUNK. Great noise, don't want to think what it's doing to the teeth. Most the time that stays locked out and the gentle hhhuuuip as the cone engages into reverse. Strange thing is, the line pressure is always correct so it's bleeding off elsewhere inside the valve block. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 8:59 AM, PhilAndrews said: Yeah. That's the one I'm looking to get the valve block from. Something is getting hung up halfway because occasionally mine will engage the park pawl before the cone clutch engages. If I'm not at a complete stop, RRRAAAKKKK CLUNK. Great noise, don't want to think what it's doing to the teeth. Most the time that stays locked out and the gentle hhhuuuip as the cone engages into reverse. Strange thing is, the line pressure is always correct so it's bleeding off elsewhere inside the valve block. Phil try a bottle of seafoam transmission cleaner, or TransX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 5, 2022 Author Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, pontiac1953 said: try a bottle of seafoam transmission cleaner, or TransX I've got a dissimilar metal expansion issue. Cold, it shifts smoothly as designed. Hot, it gets hung up. Somebody at some point (not me) had dropped all of the valve slugs. I've been slowly working to try remove the burrs without stopping the thing from working. Though, with the offer of a lower mileage valve block, I have accepted that. The guy has the transmission in storage and will be getting to it within the next few months. So, I wait. I could dump some seafoam in it, there's likely some particles floating about but I'm running synthetic oil which does make the shifts better, and also has a fair bit of detergents in too. Might do that when I change the block out and swap the oil. (Ugh expensive, that was $80 last time). When I dropped the lower pan it was remarkably clean for 5000 miles. Edited November 5, 2022 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 5, 2022 Author Share Posted November 5, 2022 A question- has anyone pulled their windscreens out? Mine leak like a sieve and I need new seals. There's likely rust repair needed too. What's the process to pull the front glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy J Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 I didn't pull mine out,but I watched the glass man do it. He cut the rubber seal and just pulled it out. It was quite a struggle,but that's how he did it. He cracked one side,but I am going to replace them both because they are foggy around the edge where they are laminated together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeil Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 21 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: A question- has anyone pulled their windscreens out? Mine leak like a sieve and I need new seals. There's likely rust repair needed too. What's the process to pull the front glass? I've done a backlight on my 62 Catalina and several windshields on VW beetles. Your Pontiac and the ones I mentioned have a rubber molding that the glass is fit into and then placed on the channel "pinch" weld. With a small diameter rope that fits into the rubber molding to the inside of the car pressure is applied to the windshield and with the rope the rubber molding is pulled over the pinch weld by the rope and the window and molding are sort of sucked into the frame. To take this windshield out you get into the inside of the car and take the finisher trim off by taking the screws off the finisher. This exposes the rubber that was originally pulled over the pinch weld. with a razor blade you cut this rubber and from the inside push the glass out. Installation on my 62 Catalina and my VW's goes like this; put the glass on a table install the rubber molding around the glass, install the metal trim into the rubber molding, on the other side (inside of the car side of rubber) install the rope into the molding and cross it at the bottom then mount the assy. to the frame bottom edge down first then the top have someone keep constant pressure on the glass while you go into the inside and start pulling the rope which pulls the rubber over the pinch weld. Below is how it's done on a VW but you get the idea. Note VW chrome trim is different also before installing use silicone spray on the molding and the metal pinch weld. On a VW beetle it takes me about 15minutes to install. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 Been doing a bunch of miles lately. The exhaust was quiet at 52mph but at 55 it had a really loud drone, almost headache inducing. So I bought a cheap muffler at AutoZone and put it out back. It's made a significant difference. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 Now all you need is one of these on your window! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 Sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 25 minutes ago, PhilAndrews said: Sounds about right. I agree! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 13, 2022 Author Share Posted November 13, 2022 If there a cross reference for readily available rotor caps and buttons? I've got a fairly bad track over inside mine and need to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 14, 2022 Author Share Posted November 14, 2022 Decided to troubleshoot the ignition. Hooked my scope up to the breaker points side of the coil and took a look at what it's doing. This trace is mostly good, shows the plug or wire resistance is little high but the plug fired cleanly. This one however is not so nice. A useful online resource shows this pattern, and the failure mode; failing rotor cap. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 17, 2022 Author Share Posted November 17, 2022 New cap, arm and plugs. Runs nice when it's cold, though now all you can hear is squeaks, rattles and clunks. Phil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 Adjusted things uo this morning and noticed that my thermostat appears not to be closing any more. Probably going to need a replacement. I forget who I got this thermostat from, pretty sure it was one of you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 Changed the valve block in the gearbox. Cold, it's solved two problems. It no longer engages the parking pawl going into reverse and in top there's no more shudder (I think one band wasn't quite holding off properly). It does shift nicely until it gets warm. I'm going to pull the governor and have a look at it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 29, 2022 Author Share Posted December 29, 2022 Got fed up with the points causing trouble, they just don't like this coil much. I caved and fitted Pertronix electronic ignition. About the same at low RPM as the points but 2000+ it's massively improved. The points must've been bouncing because now it's smoother than a smooth thing to drive. Very happy with that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 13 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: About the same at low RPM as the points but 2000+ it's massively improved. Interesting. How many different point sets had you tried? All were the same? I wonder whether cam wear is the culprit. If so, it seems that gap could be set to specification, but dwell would be on the low side. That would become worse as RPM increases. Hopefully the Pertronix obviates the need to worry about that now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrtonvilleBob Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 I assume you heeded the warning about not using solid core spark plug wires with the Pertronix conversion. I had just installed a beautiful set of factory reproduction plug wires on my '53 before deciding to do a Pertronix conversion. Since I spent big bucks on the plug wire set (Packard 440 tinned copper core) I was reluctant to replace them again. My Pertronix installation ran beautifully until the afternoon the engine suddenly died while cruising. I reinstalled the original breaker point ignition system but like you, have had infuriating problems with poor quality points. Your post has prompted me to put ditching my solid core plug wires and converting back to the Pertronix system back on my to-do list. I learned the hard way their installation warning about plug wires is more than a mere suggestion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 On 11/13/2022 at 7:43 PM, PhilAndrews said: Decided to troubleshoot the ignition. Hooked my scope up to the breaker points side of the coil and took a look at what it's doing. This trace is mostly good, shows the plug or wire resistance is little high but the plug fired cleanly. This one however is not so nice. A useful online resource shows this pattern, and the failure mode; failing rotor cap. Phil How did you have that hooked up? Are we looking at just one bad cylinder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 28 minutes ago, OrtonvilleBob said: I assume you heeded the warning about not using solid core spark plug wires with the Pertronix conversion. I did- those are MSD wires, of the correct type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, Bloo said: How did you have that hooked up? Are we looking at just one bad cylinder? 10x probe connected to the CB (-) terminal of the coil. Reads the voltage in the primary side of the coil. The trace there is a single plug firing. I didn't sync the trigger to any particular plug-that can be done via electromagnetic pickup wrapped around plug lead #1 I would have been able to identify which cylinder that was, but at the time I had just wanted to do a bit of diagnosis to see what it turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 55er Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 If you don't mind me asking, where are you guys buying these poor quality ignition points? What brand are they and who is the manufacturer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 32 minutes ago, PhilAndrews said: 10x probe connected to the CB (-) terminal of the coil. Reads the voltage in the primary side of the coil. The trace there is a single plug firing. I didn't sync the trigger to any particular plug-that can be done via electromagnetic pickup wrapped around plug lead #1 I would have been able to identify which cylinder that was, but at the time I had just wanted to do a bit of diagnosis to see what it turned up. OK so it's the primary side, and you didn't trigger it? You must have had a whole parade pattern then? And only one of the eight was bad? What fixed it? Cap? Rotor? Both? I'm trying to get my head around what "cap to rotor segment" means in that online example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, The 55er said: If you don't mind me asking, where are you guys buying these poor quality ignition points? What brand are they and who is the manufacturer? Napa, echlin and they didn't like the damp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Bloo said: OK so it's the primary side, and you didn't trigger it? You must have had a whole parade pattern then? And only one of the eight was bad? What fixed it? Cap? Rotor? Both? I'm trying to get my head around what "cap to rotor segment" means in that online example. Yeah, the trigger was from the signal so it was a crapshoot; had I spent a little more time I would have wrapped a wire around #1 plug lead and used that as the trigger and then delayed the trace. A modern digital scope with storage capability would be a very useful tool. This is an analog storage tube from the 70's which does work but isn't as flexible to use as a computerized one. In that example, that means that the arc wasn't able to cleanly traverse the gap and blew out partway, re-establishing as the primary voltage in the coil rang and re-peaked- that is between the rotor nose and plug lead contact inside the cap. Result of burned/dirty/corroded terminals inside the cap. Fix was to clean the cap terminals. Phil Edited December 30, 2022 by PhilAndrews Typo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 55er Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, PhilAndrews said: Napa, echlin and they didn't like the damp. Thanks, maybe they don't make them like they used to. I've used Echlin, Poweready, Delco, Standard, P&D, Niehoff, Guaranteed & other brand names over the years without any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, The 55er said: Thanks, maybe they don't make them like they used to. I've used Echlin, Poweready, Delco, Standard, P&D, Niehoff, Guaranteed & other brand names over the years without any problems. When they were churning them out by the hundreds of thousands, and manufacturer's reliability image relied upon the quality, they were better. Now, on much smaller scale production the quality is somewhat lacking. The cost of NOS ones is high; for the price of 4 sets of new points I bought this. It's a tried and proven system, and the electronics are mature. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, The 55er said: If you don't mind me asking, where are you guys buying these poor quality ignition points? What brand are they and who is the manufacturer? I can't speak for those guys, but on my 1936, the rubbish new points problem is very real. It is a different set of points than Phil's car would take. There are 2 pieces. Going from memory of several years ago, I bought my first set from Standard Ignition, AKA Blue Streak, who used to sell a no-compromise premium product. This set had fairly small points, a plastic rubbing block, no copper strap, etc. They looked a lot like the ones you used to get at K-Mart in a blister pack back in the 70s. There was no vent hole in them though, I consider that a good thing, and I though they would be OK. After all, those old K-Mart points did work OK, they just didn't last as long as the premium stuff. When I installed them, they didn't fit tightly around the pivot pin. There was a lot of slop, like probably 1/32" or more. I didn't see how that could work, and it didn't. The distributor cam could just pull on the rubbing block and move it around. The timing mark was jumping all over the place and the engine ran horrible. A little looking around online showed that anything else I might easily get (Niehoff, NAPA/Echlin, Carquest, BWD, etc.) also came from Standard. Look on their Wikipedia page. They make or import everything. The list of ignition brands is a paragraph long. I hoovered up a bunch of NORS points on Ebay and never looked back. I won't be running out soon. Edited December 30, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 20 minutes ago, PhilAndrews said: Yeah, the trigger was from the signal so it was a crapshoot; had I spent a little more time I would have wrapped a wire around #1 plig lead and used that as the trigger and then delayed the trace. In that example, that means that the arc wasn't able to cleanly traverse the gap and blew out partway, re-establishing as the primary voltage in the coil rang and re-peaked- that is between the rotor nose and plug lead contact inside the cap. Result of burned/dirty/corroded terminals inside the cap. Fix was to clean the cap terminals. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 (edited) Yeah. The post on that plate is in very good condition. The new points have enough slop that they'll happily sit half off the contact pad. They bounce about and are generally terrible. The timing light would show the timing move at idle easily 3-4 degrees, revved up maybe 10-15 (hard to tell with no marks on that portion of the pulley). This system it just sits bang on the line each and every time. At low RPM (<1500) the running is about the same. Above that is noticably better. A good example is in third accelerating up the bridge here- there's a crash wall on either side that reflects the sound of the exhaust and I can hear it's lost the uneven sound around 2000 RPM that it had on points. Highway running at 55 now I can hold 14-15"Hg compared to 12-13 before. It's definitely better at higher speeds. Phil Edited December 30, 2022 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 55er Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 That explains it, I've been mostly using the old time stuff that I bought (hoarded) from long ago. I carry a notepad with my part numbers along to the swap meets and that seems to be the way to go. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 That is a good way, but there's very few swap meets locally and although mine is a common distributor the cost is going up. So, hence my decision to ditch them and go with this. So far I cannot say I'm unhappy with the choice. I had a Lumenition system way back in the day and that was wonderful. The car would start each and every time like a new vehicle. No maintenance outside checking the cap and rotor periodically. Plugs lasted much longer too. I put my Colortune in last night to validate I had the idle mix correct by ear, feel and smell. The Pertronix creates a very powerful spark, visible through the glass of the plug. Idle is better, and the car smells a lot less fuelly because it's burning more, definitely hits each cylinder better, particularly under heavy throttle at low RPM. You could feel and hear it blowing the spark out before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 Phil, can you answer this members question.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 Yup. It goes out in the rain. Makes some people surprised to see a classic on the road in the rain. It's a good all rounder vehicle. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted January 3, 2023 Author Share Posted January 3, 2023 Out and about. Round trip of about 60 miles, crunched some numbers and the electronics appear to have helped. A 25% increase in fuel economy has been observed over normal for the same journey. Phil 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted January 29, 2023 Author Share Posted January 29, 2023 The heater motor finally quit. I ordered another one, in 12V flavor but while I'm waiting for that to come in I had a look inside this one. One brush had shattered, the commutator showing a badly out of round burned section. So, for now I bought a couple of brushes, sized them to fit and put it all back together. It runs again. Should last until the new motor comes in. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted January 29, 2023 Author Share Posted January 29, 2023 Also, been fighting issues with the gearbox. Discovered the valve face on the gearbox itself is no longer flat. So, I made a gasket for the valve block. That helped a fair bit. I then tried it with this, 20W transmission oil. "Universal" ATF is 10W and too thin when it gets hot, particularly. $60 from tractor supply. That's improved things though I think for summer 30W may improve it further. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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