1949 Buick Road Master model 70 starter issue?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 Bet it is starving for fuel.  Hold the choke open , open the throttle with the linkage there and see if there is a squirt of gas down the throat of the carb. If not, and betting that is the case, remove the filter temporarily, , remove the fitting between the filter and the carb and clean the screen inside there.  Run a hose from the gas line that enters the filter into a bucket or some such. Crank the engine and notice the gas flow. Solid flow?  Hardly any and intermittent?

 

  Ben

[Brooklyn Beer]

When I thought it was old/bad gas when the stumbling started I drained the tank. Then push pulled the lines clean with fresh gas. New filter.  Now I did not know there is a filter screen between the glass bowl and carb.  had some sediment in the glass bowl. My fuel filter is down in the frame rails.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

 Anyone have a picture of what I am looking for ?  This missing issue wasn't instantly BAD but it came on quickly and started building worse and worse (15 minutes of driving) till now it won't function above an terrible idle

 

This is going on the ASSUMPTION that your distributor moves the breaker plate with the vacuum advance (most do). If the ground is crappy, the ignition may try to shut down when the plate moves. Since most cars have the vacuum advance connected to ported vacuum, the plate always moves when you crack the throttle.... The ground is made of copper wire interspersed with spring steel usually, to prevent breakage. They last a long time. It's just something quick to check and eliminate as a possible cause. While you are inside the distributor, look closely at the wire going to the points. It will be made of the same stuff as the ground, but insulated. Make sure it doesn't stretch (due to being broke inside the insulation), and that if there are bare spots, that they cannot touch anything when the plate moves.

 

Lots of good advice from others in this thread about things to check. Keep after it, you'll find it.

 

Here is a ground wire in it's natural habitat (on some other brand of car):

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

if anyone wants a short vid of what of going on at idle let me know

[Brooklyn Beer]

Dug into distributor this morning and I don't know how I missed this earlier but everything in there is oil saturated.  The lead to the points, etc. You can tell oil is thrown everywhere. What would cause oil to get into the distributor?  I am guessing there is a drive bushing seal under the plate?  Anyway I know I can clean the points, etc but wire to the points is really saturated. That needs changed for sure. Attempting to get a pic. I don't see a ground strap but a ground bar of brass going to the distributor housing. I am guessing it is time to go on a learning curve with this car regarding timing, points, etc.  If I am going to have to remove these to fix something I would prefer changing out to an upgraded system.  Opinions most welcome as always !  I am thinking of moving this over to a new thread am not going to pull carb until this oily mess is sorted out.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer
add picture (see edit history)

[pont35cpe]

That`s the ground wire at the 6 0clock position. The oil could be from too much grease pumped in thru the zerk.. another problem could be the three pivot bearings, if worn, could also effect the breaker plate movement and timing. Have you checked the vac. advance?

Edited December 23, 2018 by pont35cpe (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

8 minutes ago, pont35cpe said:

That`s the ground wire at the 6 0clock position. The oil could be from too much grease pumped in thru the zerk.. another problem could be the three pivot bearings, if worn, could also effect the breaker plate movement and timing. Have you checked the vac. advance?

No.  What is the best way to check it with this distributor?  It looks and smells like motor oil. Found some grease but it was grey grease and nothing near the electrical.  Is there a seal underneath the plate I can get too if I remove the points, etc?  The lead wire is soaked through and going to replace here in a little while. Going to see about spraying points dry before I move onto more expensive changes.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

any hints on what I can use for a points lead wire?  Nobody around here has anything in stock.

[pont35cpe]

8 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

any hints on what I can use for a points lead wire?  Nobody around here has anything in stock.

Ebay item 112720931945 for the wires.  On the vac. adv., remove vac line from carb  and apply suction, breaker plate should rotate. Also if the 3 pivot balls and/or groove are worn or dirty the breaker plate may not reach full advance. Delco makes an update kit with plastic pivots to solve the worn groove problem..

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

31 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

any hints on what I can use for a points lead wire?  Nobody around here has anything in stock.

 

  I would not be concerned about the wire. The oil will not hurt that. Just be certain the points are not oily where the contacts are. 

 

  Ben

[Brooklyn Beer]

6 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

  I would not be concerned about the wire. The oil will not hurt that. Just be certain the points are not oily where the contacts are. 

 

  Ben

OK.  going to change condenser here in a minute and see what happens.  But that lead to the points is totally saturated. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Spray with brake cleaner and blow dry with compressed air;  repeat until no oil.  File or sand points and then spray/blow contact area.  Make you own lead if needed.

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

It looks and smells like motor oil. Found some grease but it was grey grease and nothing near the electrical.  Is there a seal underneath the plate I can get too if I remove the points, etc? 

 

I think there is a simple cork oil seal in the distributor similar to what is shown in the photo below. Unless the seal is completely shot there must be some reason that so much oil is getting up in there where the points are located.  If oil is getting forced past a good cork seal there might be a problem with pressure building up in the crankcase and pushing oil fumes past the seal. Either because of excessive blowby (from the rings) or the crankcase not being vented properly. Unlike a rubber lip seal, that type of cork seal was never intended to hold any pressure.  Just more food for thought...

 

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I think there is a simple cork oil seal in the distributor similar to what is shown in the photo below. Unless the seal is completely shot there must be some reason that so much oil is getting up in there where the points are located.  If oil is getting forced past a good cork seal there might be a problem with pressure building up in the crankcase and pushing oil fumes past the seal. Either because of excessive blowby (from the rings) or the crankcase not being vented properly. Unlike a rubber lip seal, that type of cork seal was never intended to hold any pressure.  Just more food for thought...

And if the vacuum advance diaphragm is torn, the vacuum getting through the diaphragm may pull oil past the cork seal.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

35 minutes ago, pont35cpe said:

Ebay item 112720931945 for the wires.  On the vac. adv., remove vac line from carb  and apply suction, breaker plate should rotate. Also if the 3 pivot balls and/or groove are worn or dirty the breaker plate may not reach full advance. Delco makes an update kit with plastic pivots to solve the worn groove problem..

 

Plate is Delco 1914446. They show up on Ebay all the time. It is a worthwhile upgrade. BTW it is a lot easier to change if you pull the distributor and do it on the bench.

 

Cheers, Dave

[Brooklyn Beer]

I just claimed VICTORY !  It is in the distributor.  Cleaned points with contact cleaner. Air dry. The lead wire to the points is still scary to me but worse is the screws holding the gap and points in place. But they are tight and set. I positioned the lead wire so it is touching nothing. advance is free and moves. The goal is to get it running so only change one thing at a time and fix one thing at time. The cap seemed a little loose as well so I bent the hold downs a little bit.  Well it fired on the first crank. Idled up without a stumble or miss. Takes throttle like it did. Yes oil up there tells me something but have a breather on the oil fill and am not getting anything out of that. Don't see how oil could get inside distributor from that cork gasket as opposed to running down the block.  Going to take off the test start lead and tie it back together with existing wiring and see if starter still functions correctly.  

 

Now.  adjusting idle mixture screws?  Idling not as rich as before because I cranked them in and then backed out 3 turns.  On my old 40 ford I just used to turn them in till it about stalled and back out 1 turn.  Same here?

 

I do want to change out the points to electronic.   Suggestions?

 

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

35 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Well it fired on the first crank. Idled up without a stumble or miss. Takes throttle like it did.

 

That's good news! At least now you know you are going in the right direction.

[Brooklyn Beer]

OK, found the chapter on adjusting the idle mixture and worked that out. Almost like my ford. Now onto the choke thermostat adjustment. Reading in the manual I am a little confused.  Plugs are loading at warm up and it is rich with lots of condensate. Black brown soot.  Says LEAN setting is needed for "highly volatile fuel" and if experiencing loading or rolling.  RICH should be used on "Spitting" (?)  So am I correct that it needs leaned out (adjusting to lean) setting at warm up until it quit spitting black?  What do they mean spitting ?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

 

 

I do want to change out the points to electronic.   Suggestions?

 

 

 

 YEDS. We need to talk. Send a PM with your phone #. 

 

  Ben

[Daves1940Buick56S]

1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

OK, found the chapter on adjusting the idle mixture and worked that out. Almost like my ford. Now onto the choke thermostat adjustment. Reading in the manual I am a little confused.  Plugs are loading at warm up and it is rich with lots of condensate. Black brown soot.  Says LEAN setting is needed for "highly volatile fuel" and if experiencing loading or rolling.  RICH should be used on "Spitting" (?)  So am I correct that it needs leaned out (adjusting to lean) setting at warm up until it quit spitting black?  What do they mean spitting ?

 

Spitting back, or backfiring thru the carb. It means a lean mixture.

 

Cheers, Dave

[Bloo]

6 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

OK, found the chapter on adjusting the idle mixture and worked that out. Almost like my ford. Now onto the choke thermostat adjustment. Reading in the manual I am a little confused.  Plugs are loading at warm up and it is rich with lots of condensate. Black brown soot.  Says LEAN setting is needed for "highly volatile fuel" and if experiencing loading or rolling.  RICH should be used on "Spitting" (?)  So am I correct that it needs leaned out (adjusting to lean) setting at warm up until it quit spitting black?  What do they mean spitting ?

 

That is extremely misleading, and you should never need to adjust the choke housing once it is set. When the engine is warm, the choke should be fully open, period.

 

The manual must have a default setting (how many notches lean or rich).. Set it there. If by some chance the manual omits this, set it at the large mark between rich and lean.

 

Having done that, any reasonably modern automatic choke (and 1949 is reasonably modern) works as follows:

 

1) With the engine cold, and the car at room temp (you may need to disable the starter), crack the throttle to "set" the choke and fast idle. The choke (at room temp) should be almost shut. The choke valve should be fairly loose. Push on it with your fingers. It is kind of floppy. Fast idle should be engaged.

 

 2) Start the car. The "choke pulloff" (probably a piston inside the choke housing) should pull the choke almost all the way open. Just a little tilt on the plate makes more difference in the mixture than you would expect with the engine running. Poke at the plate with your fingers. It is much tighter now because the car just started, and the choke thermostat is still trying to close the choke, but the choke pulloff is pulling the choke almost all the way open.

 

3)  As the car warms up, the choke should slowly come all the way open. When fully warm, the choke plate  should be straight up and down. No exceptions.

 

4)  You can make minor adjustments to the housing to make things a little richer or leaner during warmup. Most factory settings were within 2 notches (rich or lean)

 

That should be close enough to run ok as long as the other choke settings are correct or real close. There are a bunch of them. If it needs to be done, the shop manual should cover it. If not, the manual for the carburetor will. I am talking about bending little rods while checking choke plate position with drill bits or pin gauges, etc.

 

 

7 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I do want to change out the points to electronic.   Suggestions?

 

Only to get it running as good as it can on the points before you do it. Adding electronic ignition doesn't make the car run any better than a good set of points, except by a fluke. The most any ignition can do for you is light the fuel/air charge 100% of the time. If there is no ignition miss, you are already 99.9% there. The margin for improvement is pretty thin.

 

What electronic ignition does do is make the car stay tuned a LOT longer over time. I am a huge fan of electronic ignition, at least when something proven is available and the car is 12v (I never do it to 6v cars). It sounds like Ben Bruce has some ideas.

 

Spitting back, as Daves1940Buick56S noted, usually means lean (it can also mean an exhaust valve not opening). If it spits back when warm, forget the choke. The accelerator pump is the most likely suspect, followed by vacuum leaks.

 

When the car has just been running, so that you KNOW the carburetor bowl is full, disable starter somehow (assuming a Buick with autostart), prop the choke open, and look down the carb throat. open the throttle a little. You should see gas spray out the accelerator pump squirter. The action needs to be instant. The accelerator pump only exists because fuel is heavier than air, and takes longer to get fuel moving.

 

Without the accelerator pump, when you open the throttle some air would get in with no fuel, causing the engine to go lean, hesitate, and possibly backfire. There can be no delay at the beginning of the squirt. None.

 

One final thought: With the engine warm, choke fully open, and idling on slow hot idle, ALL of the air and fuel the engine runs on comes from the idle jets below the throttle plate. If you can see any fuel dribbling from the main discharge tube (or anything else) down inside the throat, then the carb is running over and needs work, probably to the float valve or the float.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

It is starting and idle very good right now. Starts on 1/2 a crank even when cold.  Just that during warm up it is spewing black condensate BAD.  I adjusted the idle mixture per spec. About to screw with the carter climate thing. When I mean it is spewing black soot bad during choke warm up I cannot express how bad.  I could recoat my driveway.  Once warmed up it is gone.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)

[Bloo]

My knee-jerk reaction is that the choke pulloff isn't working. Verify that the housing is set to the right notch, then see if the choke behaves as I posted above. Good luck!

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

I am going to lean it out 3 notches to start tomorrow morning to start.  Zero experience with this so going by "winging it".  Choked out this rich, cranking 3 notches towards lean cannot be overdoing it in my assumption.

[Ronnie]

Have you let the engine run long enough to burn out all the raw gas that was caused by the ignition problem? I agree that it sounds like the choke pull of may not be working properly.

[Ronnie]

3 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I am going to lean it out 3 notches to start tomorrow morning to start.  Zero experience with this so going by "winging it". 

 

Hang on. I might be able to find instructions for adjusting the choke.

[Bloo]

Except that the housing adjustment isn't really what sets the choke during the period you are having trouble. The choke pulloff setting does that.

 

The housing does have some small effect on warmup, but its main purpose is to set the choke rich enough to start, while still allowing enough movement from heat to get the choke full open when hot.

 

The instant the car starts, the choke pulloff snaps the choke plate hard to the position the car needs to drive away cold, and that is almost open. It sure sounds to me it isn't happening.

 

That said, you sure arent going to hurt anything by trying different settings of the housing.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

What I find in the shop manual is just do it a little at a time till it leans out.  Throwing road tar is a base line to me to move it a little extra to get started.

[Brooklyn Beer]

8 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Have you let the engine run long enough to burn out all the raw gas that was caused by the ignition problem? I agree that it sounds like the choke pull of may not be working properly.

It was doing this before any issue arose.  Day one from when I took delivery.  I started it the next day and left a skidmark on the garage door and floor like it was painted

[Ronnie]

Open this link and scroll down to about page 15 in the pdf. It covers choke adjustment.  http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1948-49/Group3/Group3.pdf

 

It appears this carb has a power valve system of some sort designed to richen the mixture at high speed.  It might be screwed up causing the problem with black smoke. I didn't take the time to read about it enough to try to understand how it works. I think you can read about it on page 29 if you think it might be the problem. Some of the members here may already know all about it and chime in.

[old-tank]

Any car that is repeatedly started for only an idle session is going to slobber like that.  And the idle mixture cannot be set with the raw fuel from earlier problems coating and soaked into carbon in the intake runners and back of the intake valves.  Take it out for a 50 mile run at highway speeds...at that point you can set the idle mixtures and the next start will be cleaner.

Choke?  Adjust only if loading up on first start and it smooths out if manually opened.

[Brooklyn Beer]

As I have now seemed to have gotten a handle on this problem I want to thank everyone's opinions and input.  It was a great team contribution to work out these problems !  Now I am moving to a couple new questions and will start a new thread.

[Ronnie]

5 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Now I am moving to a couple new questions and will start a new thread

 

You can't move on yet. You've got to tell us what solved the problem with black smoke blowing out the back and oil getting in the distributor. We've all been sitting on the edge of our seats waiting to find out what was causing it 

[Brooklyn Beer]

Well the oil in distributor was clean oil. I notice packing material in the center of the shaft under the rotor. Being I am changing everything out to pertronix system everything is on hold till I can change that out and look under it. It starts good, runs ok with a every once in a while miss during warm up. I adjusted the choke some and will go out for a ride later to blow it out.  I am reading and researching as to how oil can get into the distributor housing yet nothing definitely defined. Being I cannot sit still I find something else that needs attention.  So the temp gauge seems like a simple issue as well as adjust one rapping lifter till it warms up. But waiting on a valve cover gasket for that. This week the old 46 Dodge coupe fluid drive gets lifted up and the clutch job starts.  Rear main, etc.  It is chattering oil coated mess with a screaming pilot bushing. Parked in August when something made the clutch pedal return spring fly off and the clutch fork rattle around now. It has been 28 years since I dropped a tranny (80 Z28 super T 10) and looking forward to another new experience. But this is a project that can only be done when the temps behave.

[Grimy]

That "packing material" under the rotor was originally a piece of felt which was supposed to receive a drop or two of oil whenever someone pulled the dist cap (i.e., not often).  Perhaps someone working on it put way too much oil, beyond the capability of felt to hold, and that might be the source of the oil on your plate.

 

Ben and I differ on Pertronix/electronic ignituion, but when you install it, may I suggest you keep the removed parts in the trunk for a hopefully unnecessary side-of-road repair.  My experience has been, if I have it, I won't need it.

[Brooklyn Beer]

Victory, short lived.  Went to take it out and made it 200 yards before it started breaking up again.  Pulled back into garage and breaking up bad.  Shut down.  On a whim attempted restart through pedal switch and now power will not go through carb switch. Tested.  Nothing on leaving side. Could these two things be coincidental or part of a bigger issue  ???  I have a new switch I can install. Points and such still dry.  It was starting and idling fine !   GRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Brooklyn Beer]

OK, just waiting on the parts to change out the ignition. Then will wire in a separate push button switch to get around the carb switch that is now staying open. Have those parts here. Just taking advantage of the weather in the 60's here to finally getting around to dropping the tranny in the 46 dodge and doing the clutch and replacing the rear main. Just a great car if a little worn around the edges. Back to the 30's this weekend so into the heated garage with the Buick !

[Brooklyn Beer]

I can claim victory again. Installed pertronix system with their coil and baby fired right up even at 34 degree's. Was a tad rough but am sure plugs and such needed burning off.  Let her warm up and checked throttle response.. Just fine. Not breaking up at all.  Backed her out and off I went. Outside a sticky lifter that I have to deal with we drove nice and smooth at 45 MPH. Wasn't going to push it. Did fine under load going up hill. Got a mile from house and ice pellets started so turned back around and parked.  When I was removing the points the lead wire actually broke in two.  So this coming weekend when the weather improves will go for a longer drive and see how it goes at highway speed. Sure plugs need burned off.   Now it is onto the temp gauge !

[gdmn852]

Glad you found problem I had a wire in distributor that was broken on inside would contact until the vacuum advance moved it hope the wire is cause of your problem.Make sure the screws on points and condenser don’t interfere with plate rotation,1949 models don’t use the 3 balls to hold the plate,it rides on a oil filled felt plate ,you mentioned earlier about oil in distributor someone may have over oiled it.

[Brooklyn Beer]

I think I was right then in thinking I have a later model distributor. The pertronix fit fine though and she fired right up after install.  I took a picture of the distributor before install. What say you?  1949?