Brooklyn Beer Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 I have a 1949 Buick Road Master that seems to have what sounds like the starter hanging up after I changed the ballast resistor. The motor is only of 3000 miles with a rebuild and the Dynaflow about 100. The car has been converted to 12 volt with alternator as I had AC installed. Only had car for 3 weeks. Cap, rotor, coil, plugs, wires, points, condenser are new. I did not do any of the work on car but someone with a reputable rep did it. Took delivery of the car and it started and ran fine, if a little rich.OK, that was going to be a carb adjustment when tune manual got here. (waiting still) Drove it 60 plus miles without a problem over the next week. Car started very well even on a cold day. Choke, etc seemed to work fine if idle was a little high. Once or twice over 40 starts the starter (still activated from gas pedal) would hang up and would not shut off with key. Had to pop hood and panic disconnect the battery or it would continue to turn even with key off. Problems started coming back from a drive when out of the blue it began to stumble, miss, and loose power. Would not take any pedal at all but was 1/2 mile from house and limped home into garage. Gas in tank is one day old and from same pump I fill my every day cars. Fuel filter is new, carb bowl full and filled with fresh gas. No problems there. Next day when I started it idled horrible. Surged, stumbled, stalled. Then would not start. No fire, no spark. Tested with a spritz of starter fluid. Had a like issue with a 40 ford at one time so changed out ballast resistor and it fired up BUT it acts as if starter is hung up and dragging on the fly wheel. Sounds like it it is stuck on the flywheel BUT not cranking. Rich as well. Prior to restarting after resistor change I screwed in both idle mixture screws all the way then backed out 3 complete turns which I am sure was a mistake now. Trying to find a base to work off as one was 4 turns out from the other. But I digress. The motor acts like it wants to run but something is holding it back and by sound, I am judging it is the starter not releasing. It is not staying engaged like it did when starting but just not releasing. I have not done anything else to it after this happened. No tapping with a hammer, etc. Everything concerning the 12 volt conversion is new parts. Except the ballast resistor. I cannot check to see if that corrected the problem until I address this new one. Opinions? Thanks in advance. This Buick is brand new to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Hello there are two electric lockouts on your car there is one on carburetor looks football shaped with two wires going to it ,opens with engine vacuum when running it can be adjusted with shims if Carter or bending if stromburg also on steering column there is a switch connected to Dynaflow linkage it only allows current flow if it is park or nutral .these may not be working or adjusted properly.Check out a 1948 49 Buick shop manual may help explain it better. On some cases the flywheel ring gear gets damaged and will lockup on bendix drop down the flywheel cover to check that out. Good luck and let us know what you find out Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, gdmn852 said: Check out a 1948 49 Buick shop manual may help explain it better. Document sources https://www.teambuick.com/reference/index.php Download the 1942 Buick shop manual. All of it section by section. The pdf link does not work. http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1942/Shop%20Manual/ It is very comprehensive and has information that can be used with all straight 8’s. It has more information than was included in older “Shop Manuals” before 1942-41 1948 49 http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1948-49/ Edited November 24, 2018 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Converted to 12v? Was the starter, solenoid and starter relay converted?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Check for loose wires on the front of the solenoid. Loose and possibly touching the positive cable also on the solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 36 minutes ago, old-tank said: Converted to 12v? Was the starter, solenoid and starter relay converted?? Questions I will ask. I will go over that more in the morning but looking at the starter I am saying no to that based on the fact it was painted the same time the motor was rebuilt and painted. Solenoid and relay I will look at in detail tomorrow.The starting system was functioning quite well outside it hanging up a couple times. It started on one spin every time with the pedal depressed. Then out of the blue it started running real rough with loss of power and stalling and after changing the ballast, it is now staying engaged on the flywheel by the sound described in the shop manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: Check for loose wires on the front of the solenoid. Loose and possibly touching the positive cable also on the solenoid. will do. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 12 Volt ignition coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 If this has a replacement hi torque starter motor ,check the relay mine was changed to this type would not disengage as relay was bad however not if it’s the original system does not use relay.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 57 minutes ago, EmTee said: 12 Volt ignition coil? Coil looks new. I did not do the conversion and will check coil. The car was running fine one minute and then it wasn't. I suspected bad gas but none of the daily driving cars have had any issues from the same pump. 6 minutes ago, gdmn852 said: If this has a replacement hi torque starter motor ,check the relay mine was changed to this type would not disengage as relay was bad however not if it’s the original system does not use relay.. Was up researching last night and will get into it more this morning and take a few pictures to post. Not sure about high torque starter and the shop that did the work will not be open till Monday to get some answers. I can say everything under the hood regarding relays, cap, rotor, etc looks new. There is only 100 miles on the car since I took delivery. Only old part was the ballast resistor which I replaced which I sure am hoping is just coincidental to the starter not disengaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 12 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: rough with loss of power and stalling and after changing the ballast, So, why was the ballast changed? They either work or don't. (Has nothing to do with starter issues.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 22 minutes ago, old-tank said: So, why was the ballast changed? They either work or don't. (Has nothing to do with starter issues.) The ballast was the only older part in the ignition system and the connection spades were real loose so I started there with the rough idle and zero response (close to stalling) when applying any gas pedal. The starter situation is just coincidental I am thinking which is now keeping me from tuning the carb. I am brand new to this car and brand new to this type of gas pedal starter starting system. I just bought a multimeter to check the old ballast to see if that was the stumbling issue. I had this same issue with a 1940 Ford at one time so going from that experience is all concerning the ballast. Plus it looked to me like the ballast was just plain old and the only weak link in an otherwise new ignition system with less then 100 miles on it. The car was running fine. Starting on the first spin. Then just out of the blue driving it began to stumble and would not take any peddle without wanting to stall. The car now will start very well but the starter drive assembly is not retracting by the sound as the motor is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 5 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: The ballast was the only older part in the ignition system and the connection spades were real loose There was no ballast resistor on that original 6v system. It has been changed to 12v long ago and recently? Starter run-on or hanging is usually due to contacts in the solenoid sticking due to a low voltage condition (usually the starter relay). If still using 6v components with 12v then that should not be an issue. Best to contact whoever cobbled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, old-tank said: There was no ballast resistor on that original 6v system. It has been changed to 12v long ago and recently? Starter run-on or hanging is usually due to contacts in the solenoid sticking due to a low voltage condition (usually the starter relay). If still using 6v components with 12v then that should not be an issue. Best to contact whoever cobbled it. OH TRUST ME, The shop is getting a call first thing Monday. This conversion has about 100 miles on it. So if things were waiting to go wrong now was the time. Thanks for all the great info as we put together the picture. I have the battery on charge and once on full I will turn it over. If drive assembly doesn't retract then it is time to take care of that first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Hello again mine also had been converted to 12 volt also there was resistors on it with a home made harness I wound up replacing it with a new original type harness changing all light bulbs etc the only place I have a resistor is for the original radio. As I mentioned there was a issue with the relay for the high torque starter it stuck and continue to crank engine it didn’t have that much use on it before it failed.Good luck on it.if it is a relay easy to replace.but as I said original type starter has none . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 I would be checking the electrical connections to the solenoid of the starter and the vacuum lines that disconnect the power to the solenoid as well. Likely chance that both problems ARE related. A vacuum leak can cause the running issues you are experiencing. My AU$0.02 worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 56 minutes ago, gdmn852 said: Hello again mine also had been converted to 12 volt also there was resistors on it with a home made harness I wound up replacing it with a new original type harness changing all light bulbs etc the only place I have a resistor is for the original radio. As I mentioned there was a issue with the relay for the high torque starter it stuck and continue to crank engine it didn’t have that much use on it before it failed.Good luck on it.if it is a relay easy to replace.but as I said original type starter has none . Just the info I need. Have you looked at the link of the aftermarket starter I posted? 43 minutes ago, maok said: I would be checking the electrical connections to the solenoid of the starter and the vacuum lines that disconnect the power to the solenoid as well. Likely chance that both problems ARE related. A vacuum leak can cause the running issues you are experiencing. My AU$0.02 worth. It was like a switch was turned on to cause the first issue with the stumble. It was there just as quickly as not. I am new to the world of Buick. I was tracing vacuum lines just the other day before the issues arose wondering what all the hard piped stuff was going too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 Once it warms up I will go crank over with a fully charged battery and see if the drive assembly disengages. If not then out it comes. Has anyone installed an aftermarket 12 volt starter like this? If so is it a direct bolt in item like the factory starter? One thing I notice from the pictures is that I do not see the two post connections for the relay like the factory starter shows. Maybe I am missing it ? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-1952-Buick-12-Volt-Mini-Starter-1107005-1107049-1107078-/283220246642?oid=273219414383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Hello again mine on a 49 is similar to this on it the main battery post is connected to large terminal it has two smaller wires coming out of it for solenoid that connects to the relay that was bad it would continue to crank when battery was connected.apperently the relay was stuck in closed position causing the problem.Once again this was on car when I bought it As I said I took out the old harness and put in a new one from YandZ car had lots of modifications so made it hard to track problems it was kind of a 12 and 6 volt operation. Good luck on tracking it down I was able to get a new relay at Autozone was around 8.$Mine bolts right to engine without modifications,with exception of wiring made up a terminal block so didn’t have to cut up new harness.Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, gdmn852 said: Hello again mine on a 49 is similar to this on it the main battery post is connected to large terminal it has two smaller wires coming out of it for solenoid that connects to the relay that was bad it would continue to crank when battery was connected.apperently the relay was stuck in closed position causing the problem.Once again this was on car when I bought it As I said I took out the old harness and put in a new one from YandZ car had lots of modifications so made it hard to track problems it was kind of a 12 and 6 volt operation. Good luck on tracking it down I was able to get a new relay at Autozone was around 8.$Mine bolts right to engine without modifications,with exception of wiring made up a terminal block so didn’t have to cut up new harness.Gary. This is the wiring set up on my car and as far as I can tell it is stock. The added wiring you see is strictly for the AC/heat that was added from vintage air. The wiring on this car doesn't looked chopped up and spliced together at all but very stock and professional looking to me. I am about to go out and see if the fully charged battery gets the drive assembly to retract. I will then attempt to disengage it manually. If it doesn't, and from what I am reading, I have to remove the starter and bench test things. My problem in the starter seems to have started with the relay, and not retracting can be a bad solenoid. The starter motor turns easily and freely. Thanks again for giving me different options of problems to inquire about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 Well the drive assembly did not disengage and makes that wonderful whirling sound the shop manual describes. On a bright note it fired right up with barely one turn. So I will be removing starter. So I ask this question. Would it be better to take this one down and have it overhauled or just get an aftermarket 12 volt high torque starter I see listed from a few places? Finding someone even close to where I live that could rebuild this to 12 volt needs is questionable. Not worried about stock appearance as I am about dependability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Aside from the relay mine has the hi torque starter it works and is reliable.you may have to change some of the wiring terminals.Trying to find someone to rebuild it locally may be hard ,the original starter and solenoid can be rebuild but probably have to send it out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, gdmn852 said: Aside from the relay mine has the hi torque starter it works and is reliable.you may have to change some of the wiring terminals.Trying to find someone to rebuild it locally may be hard ,the original starter and solenoid can be rebuild but probably have to send it out . Do you remember who you got your starter from and what type? I was looking at the DENSO ones on Ebay. And I guess another question is who is one of the better Buick supply houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 It was on car when I bought it so I can’t help you there may have came from Bobs when car was “restored “about 10 years ago .not sure what is available now , mine bolts right up but the solenoid connectors are modern push on type .appently your solenoid is sticking maybe from change to 12 volt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Get the new mini starter and enjoy your Buick! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 hours ago, old-tank said: Get the new mini starter and enjoy your Buick! Me thinks the same. I drive my cars a lot. Every chance even for mundane tasks like getting beer on a Sunday afternoon. lol . So Mr tank, any leads on the mini starter besides ebay ? I look at like this. I can die and hope the family enjoys the money or I can die while enjoying the cars and let them deal with selling them. Who cares, I am dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 4 hours ago, old-tank said: Get the new mini starter and enjoy your Buick! Agree! Mine, on the '50, came from Tom Telesco in MA. Bobs Automobilia has them.. Mine has been on for several thousand miles. NO problem. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share Posted November 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Agree! Mine, on the '50, came from Tom Telesco in MA. Bobs Automobilia has them.. Mine has been on for several thousand miles. NO problem. Ben Bobs says they are out. is the one on ebay the same ? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-1952-Buick-12-Volt-Mini-Starter-1107005-1107049-1107078-/283220246642?oid=273219414383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Looks the same. Bout same price. Bought mine from Tom Telesco who goes by TelRiv on line . Phone 203 324 6045 Ben 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 22 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Agree! Mine, on the '50, came from Tom Telesco in MA. Bobs Automobilia has them.. Mine has been on for several thousand miles. NO problem. Ben Can you show me a picture of the install? Curious of the wiring. Are they a direct bolt in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Direct bolt in. Wiring is self explanatory. I don't have a picture. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Direct bolt in. Wiring is self explanatory. I don't have a picture. Ben Thank you very much. The new starter is on the way ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Well finally got my starter from Bobs. High Torque model. Easy fit and easy install. Went in like a charm and followed simple wiring direction to 9th degree. Testing the wire to old relay as directions indicated with a volt meter. It showed 12 volts going to relay with pedal depressed and stopping the current when pedal not depressed. Checked both wires to be sure I had it correct. Checked and double checked. Wired starter up and went to go start. Car has been sitting for a few weeks and it is 45 out there so figured it would take a few or more turns to get her going. Cycled starter a few times as not to over heat and then on the forth attempt after the motor coughed a few times the starter again stuck engaged and would not turn off even with key off. Had to disconnect battery again. After sitting 5 minutes went to connect battery again and circuit to starter is still staying closed and turning starter. Brand new starter so now where would be a good guess to get to looking for a problem? Again please be gentle. I am brand new to this car and have no experience with this type of starting system. But I do have a shop manual. The old starter was not retracting and you can move the engagement lever by hand so I know that was broke. The new high torque starter turns like nobodies business and was quite the easy swap out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) Has the entire wiring harness been replaced? The wires at the starter appear new but what about the ones inside behind the dashboard? If they havent been replaced I'd suggest disconnecting the small wires at the solenoid and then temporarily connecting the battery. The starter should not come into play at that point. If it does I would suspect the solenoid. But if it remains neutral, i would disconnect the battery and try adding each solenoid wire independently for a similar test. If either smaller wire test results in activating the solenoid plunger then I would try to follow that wires circuitry to look for the short. Edited December 11, 2018 by JohnD1956 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 And I might add that: If the starter's gear is still engaged with the battery disconnected, I would be thinking that there is some misalignment in the flywheel /pressure plate assembly. Perhaps one or both have worked themselves loose? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 15 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: followed simple wiring direction to 9th degree Explain if you can. Is the starter relay still used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 What is triggering the starter... In other words are you still using the pedal start or is there a starter button? Something is still sending power to the starter.. You mention relay so I'm assuming still the pedal system?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Hello if you put the car in drive assuming it’s a Dynaflow, should cut power to starter if setup correctly also the switch on the carburetor should brake contact to starter maybe check the carburetor linkage if Starter is still running manually pull wire off carburetor switch and see if it stops. I mentioned earlier the relay on my high torque stuck shut and did the same thing you are experiencing but with new parts this should not be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 gdmn852 makes a good point. The Neutral safety switch should stop the starter from engaging if the car is in any driven gear, which includes reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Attached a test light to the trigger wire on the starter then start your diagnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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