REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  I have been chewing on your steam bending process.  Here are a couple of questions; Did you simply use the pressure gauge port, in the lid, as a threaded tap for your steam line connection?  What is the capacity of your pressure cookers?  (as I set up my system I do now want to run out of water)  What type hose did you use to carry the generated steam from the pressure cooker to the steam chamber?  We have very low humidity here so I would plan for maybe more steam time and, as you said it, quickly bend the wood.  I have several bows that I need to build, a full set for the Locomobile and a Set of bows for a Studebaker white-top surrey (horse drawn) and several other pieces.  I am most taken up with your steaming process.  Thanks for sharing on this forum.

Al

[Mike Macartney]

Al, I have taken a few more photos for you which may help explain my steamer's. The photos were taken this morning in the rain so they are not brilliant.

The rubber hoses were nothing special, just old heater hoses that I stole out of my daughters second hand BMW02 and CS stores. They were all roughly 1/2" ID. Where I needed a longer length of hose I joined them with a bit of 1/2" OD steel tube.

I chose pressure cookers to use as the lids fit tightly and they hold a lot of water. I asked Jane if she still had her pressure cooker, unfortunately, she had thrown it out a few years ago. I then looked on eBay and bought two at less than £20 each including postage. I removed the bit in the middle of the lid where the original weight fitted and drilled the holes out to fit a 1/2" brass pipe union threaded union. I bought the nuts to hold them in place again on eBay. I would have preferred half nuts but I could only find full nuts listed. I also used a plastic sealing washer between the union and the pressure cooker lid. To be on the safe side, I left the existing safety valve in place as you can see in the photo above.

The two pressure cookers fitted onto the camping Gaz stove that I had. I also use this occasionally for heating up soldering irons.

The second hand heather hose I used was a bit of a loose fit on the brass union so on the second 'steaming' I fitted a hose clip. The cloth is over the safety valve because I was loosing a bit of steam from this on one of the pressure cookers.

f

The end plugs for the steam tube were just made out of bits of plywood.

This is a photo taken underneath the workmate showing the 1/2" bit of steel tube I welded into the galvanised tube for the steam enter the tube.

This just gives an idea of the size of the pressure cookers. On the first steaming I filled the pressure cooker about 7/8ths full. After we had finished steaming the first bit of wood the pressure cooker was still about half full of water. I would guess that a full pressure cooker full of water would steam for about 3-hours before running out of water.

The 4" diameter galvanised pipe was a couple of odd lengths that Robert had lying about at the end of his garden!

 

If you would like more photos or more information, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  Thanks for the additional information and pictures.  I now have a few specific questions as your now the resident expert at steam bending wood!  What is the capacity in quarts of your two pressure cookers?  I have my eye on a couple of pressure cookers, maybe larger than what you have used?  What GPM do you figure your system consumes per cooker per hour?  Do you think the pop-off valve could be blanked off, in the lid, as this system really does not build or hold pressure just makes and delivers steam to atmosphere?  Do you think that I would be wise to insulate the steam chamber tubes in order to keep them hot and condensation down to a minimum?  I assume that your condensed steam was just allowed to run out of the ends of your tube and past the plywood dams?  With your experience, did you note any "spring-back" of the legs of your bent hoops?  If no spring-back, I assume that you just pulled each leg down to a point that they were simply parallel with each other?  Most other thoughts I have had, have been answered by a study of your set up and steam system.  Any other thoughts you may have are heartily welcomed!  Thanks again for sharing your learning and project success with us all.

Regards,

Al

Edited March 11, 2019 by alsfarms
addition for clarity (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Hello Al,

 

In answer to your questions:

 

Q. What is the capacity in quarts of your two pressure cookers? 

A. Each pressure cooker takes 4 quarts (8-pints, 1 UK gallon).

 

Q. What GPM do you figure your system consumes per cooker per hour?

A. Is this Gallons per Minute? Approximately 1 quarts per hour for each pressure cooker.

 

Q. Do you think the pop-off valve could be blanked off, in the lid, as this system really does not build or hold pressure just makes and delivers steam to atmosphere?

A. Yes, I can't see any problem with this being blocked off as long as the system is free to release steam to the atmosphere.

 

Q. Do you think that I would be wise to insulate the steam chamber tubes in order to keep them hot and condensation down to a minimum?

A. I had thought about this when I made the steam tubes. I decided to try the system first without any lagging and the system worked OK without insulation. I did lay an old pillow on the tube, but only because it was laying about in the workshop and I thought it may help to keep some of the heat in the tube.

 

Q. With your experience, did you note any "spring-back" of the legs of your bent hoops?

A. Not a great deal of spring back. We overbent by a couple of degrees. I will try and remember to take a photo this morning of the 'spring back' before I remove the last bent hoop that is still in the jig.

 

Q. I assume that your condensed steam was just allowed to run out of the ends of your tube and past the plywood dams?

A. I cut a small slot at the bottom of each of the wooden plugs to let the steam out and wrapped a rag around the wood at each end of the steam tube.

 

Hopefully, if the weather stays like this today, I can steam another hoop.

I took this photo at 7am this morning.

See the bird just in front of the trailer (the locals call my trailer 'The Nuclear Flask Carrier').

Here is a close up of the pheasant that lots of people pay lots of money to shoot them! They are bred for shooting.

[alsfarms]

Hello mike,  Nice Ring Neck pheasant running loose in the yard.  This same bird was introduced into our area many years ago and I have MANY fond memories of doing the hunt with family.  I used the wrong terminology on one of my above listed questions.  I meant to  ask about GPH not GPM.  By your description I now know what size pressure cooker has enough capacity to not run out of water and generate enough steam to run two or three hours.  I am assuming that you run your heat source "wide open" for maximum heat and steam generation?  I am now on the Prowl to locate a couple of 4 quart pressure cookers.  (I had thought that I would need much more capacity and was initially looking for 21 quart pressure cookers.  I could not fit two large pressure cookers on my camp chef stove.

Al

[Mike Macartney]

Hello Al,

 

I put the photo of the bird in because I didn't think that you had these birds in the States. We managed to steam the 3rd hoop this morning. I filled both the pressure cookers to 7/8th's full and after 2-1/2 hours boiling they were between an 1/8th and a 1/4 full.

Here are some photos of the hoop before and after undoing the ratchet straps to show the 'spring back'.

With the ratchet straps still tight and overbent to the white pencil line.

With the ratchet straps released. The 'leg' springs back to right angles with the top of the hoop.

With the bent hoop removed you can see my pencil line better.

Over the weekend I prepared and painted the metal top supports that the top hoops screw to.

I blasted the paint and most of the rust off them.

Gave them a coat of Kurust and left them overnight.

Then gave them a coat of primer using an aerosol can of primer. I must admit I get on better with a 'rattle can' as you call them, rather than with the spray gun. Perhaps, I don't thin my paint enough, when I use the spray gun? I also sprayed both of the frames satin black but forgot to take a photo!

As it was the weekend they weren't working next door, so I used there packing bench to fit the seal at the bottom of the windshield support frame.

Getting ready to glue the strip on the bottom where it sits on the scuttle panel.

I thought I better put some masking tape on the edge in case I slipped with the brush when I was painting on the contact adhesive.

Brushing on the contact adhesive to the underside.

 

[Mike Macartney]

Contact adhesive was also brushed onto the edge strip. When both glued parts were dry to the touch they were pushed together.

Ready to fit to the body tomorrow (that was yesterday - what I mean is today - never mind I've just confused myself!)

[alsfarms]

Nice work Mike.  I wish I were as far along as you are!

Al

[Mike Macartney]

Fitting the windshield frame was fun, trying not to scratch the new paint!

Once we got the side bolts in, 'it was plain sailing'. Jane decided to help to remove the masking tape from the 'brass bits'. Easier said than done.

Looking at the photo above - I forgot to line the slots up on the set screws!

Just as I was about to take a photo of the windshield temporally fitted Jane said "You can't take a photo with the windscreen dirty". Here's proof that I can - I managed to take it before she got to it!

Robert popped down to help me put the next top hoop in the jig to bend it. We then decided to have ago at fitting the front hoop. First we needed to fit the top hoop stay bars. I 'tie wrapped' the bars in the vertical position using some square steel rod.

That looks a bit low!?! Eventually, the webbing and hood will stop it going this low.

Asking some other owners it seems that the top sticks out about 6" in front of the screen, when the screen is vertical, I thought 6" was a bit much and we settled on 4".

If you ever meet up with Roberts wife, Gill, don't tell her you have seen Robert smoking!

After screwing the hoop to the metal frame we marked the length of the 'legs' removed the hoop and cut the excess wood off.

Robert then made this jig to support the hoop while he formed and shaped the ends.

I am hoping to be able to get all the hoops in a line at the back.

Although, most of the photos I have found of other Humberette's don't seem to have them lined up.

This is an old photo I found with the paperwork that came with the Humberette.

 

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  I am so happy for you actually getting to the good part of your restoration project, the fitting and assembly!  You are lucky in two regards, one to have a dear wife that is willing to help out and two, to have a good friend, like Robert, to lend a hand to help out!  I am happy to say that I am also blessed with an understanding wife!  I wish I had a wood savy friend like Robert, but I don't!  For me its just learn as I go.  Fortunately, with your postings, on wood bending, I now have the courage to get into wood bending for my projects and not rely on some other shop to get me what I think I need.  I will be able to measure up and get exactly what i need and want!  Give your dear wife and buddy a thumbs up from me.

Regards,

Al

[Mike Macartney]

Hello Al, I find assembling bits onto the body worse than attacking the bodywork, it always so easy to accidentally scratch the paint. As to being lucky to have Jane, I must agree, last week was our 50th wedding anniversary. I am glad my postings have helped, that's what this forum is all about, hoping to help others and getting help yourself. Mike

Here are a couple of photos I forgot to post.

Putting the screws in to hold the windshield support to the scuttle panel was not very easy to do.

My go at trying to shape the ends of the hoops on a scrap of wood - needs more work! I think Robert will be better at this than me.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Mike Macartney
spelling mistake (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  Are you using Formed "T" bolts to wrap partially around the  wood hoop on the outside and then snug up with a nut on the inside of the  irons?  Or are you just using a bolt and nut?  My project will be very similar to yours and I plan to use a "T" bolt to fix the bow to the top irons.  I like how your hoop is finished on the end.  I will try to match what you  done.  I have no wood to even use as a pattern!

Al

[alsfarms]

Mike,  What I am trying to replicate is the top that is show on the original factory photo of the same model Locomobile as  I am working on.  See my small AVATAR picture to the left.

Al

[Spinneyhill]

LoL. Robert's wife will know he has been smoking as soon as he walks in the door. The smell is in his clothes and hair now.

[Mike Macartney]

She thinks it is his aftershave - 'Marlboro for Men'!

[Mike Macartney]

14 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I am trying to replicate is the top that is show on the original factory photo of the same model Locomobile as  I am working on.  See my small AVATAR picture to the left.

 

Al, do you have a bigger photo you can post? Mike

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  I am not trying to pollute your Humberette thread here but by your request, here is a larger copy of an original factory release picture of a 1909 Locomobile Model L Toy Tonneau.  This is the came car that I am getting on with restoration.  Watching your thread has got me charged up to bend my own top bows to fit the top assembly.  I am scouting out a couple of 8 quart pressure cookers as we speak.  This picture was taken just outside the Locomobile factory in Bridgeport Conn. and as you can see, right on the Atlantic shoreline

Regards,

Al

Edited March 13, 2019 by alsfarms
addition for clarity (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Al, It looks a nice car, a lot bigger than my Humberette cyclecar! Before I got involved with this forum I did not realise that Locomobile made gasoline models, I always assumed, wrongly, that all Locomobile's were steam cars.

To answer your question on the fixings of the wooden hoops to the metal frame, here is a photo.

The wood is fitted to the metal with 3 or 4 countersunk number 10 x 3/4" screws. I am holding what was left of one of the hoops.

This week we have high winds and rain courtesy of 'storm Gareth' - seems to me a funny name for a storm! Therefore work on bending has stopped until some better weather comes our way.

[Roger Zimmermann]

On 3/11/2019 at 5:55 PM, Mike Macartney said:

 

I put the photo of the bird in because I didn't think that you had these birds in the States.

 

No, they are just much larger!

 

(sorry for that bad joke)

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,

The Locomobile used a "T' bolt similar to a wooden wheel, wood fello retaining "T" bolt to anchor the fello to the rim.  The same idea to mount  the wood bow to the folding irons.  I am sure the "T" bolt design was to minimize the side flex on that connection that would or could end up splitting the  wood bow.  The "T" bolt would be formed around the wood bow to put the squeeze on the bow when the retaining bolt is tightened down.  What are you going to do for your rear window? 

Al

[Mike Macartney]

1 hour ago, Roger Zimmermann said:

No, they are just much larger! 

I do like your humour - another one that made me giggle!

[JV Puleo]

The steam Locomobiles enjoyed very good sales in the UK. The gas cars were all top-of-the-line, very expensive and on a par with the contemporary RR or Napier. Some were probably sold in Britain but there was plenty of competition from domestic high-quality cars. A few years ago an unrestored big Lcomobile showed up with a British dealer. if I had the £30,000 asking price I'd have been on it in a heartbeat.

[Mike Macartney]

Thanks Joe for the information regarding Locomobiles. We are never too old to learn more 'stuff''. 

[Mike Macartney]

We are about to fix the wood top hoops to the metal brackets. Does anybody know whether or not these should be fitted in line as the photos below or staggered? I have searched photos on the internet and not had much luck at finding photos of this period of car with the top down that shows anything useful.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Mike, I think your doing great work on the restoration. I think I would temporarily clamp the bow and stretch  an old sheet across them and see how it looks. Then you could adjust as needed to get the right look. Once it looks correct, then mark then and fasten. Just an idea. Mike

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,

Now that you suggest the proper way to stack the bows....hmmmm.  I know a trimmer who frequents the AACA forums.  He is real good with tops/  If you are not in a big hurry, I will ask him and see what he suggests.  Now for my thoughts, which are only worth about 2 cents.  I don't think they should be stacked on top of each other and in perfect line.  This is my reasoning, each bow/hoop will have a certain amount of material wrapped around it.  That material will make bulk and make the stack taller if the hoops are in perfect alignment.  If they are staggered just a bit, the stack will not be as tall.  I will chat with the trimmer and ask him to come over and make a personal posting on your thread.

Regards,

Al

[trimacar]

This is a case of function follows form.

 

To position bows, it's not how they're stacked that's important, it's how they line up when they're in the UP position.

 

Now, if you had someone with that exact car, they might be able to give you measurements, but that might be difficult to find.

 

If I were doing the top, I'd have a helper and some nice clamps.  

 

First, raise the bows in place on the car, and clamp the front bow in place, to match where it clamps to the windshield.  Your top irons are what is known as a four bar mechanism, and they should somewhat lock in place in the correct position.

 

Next, clamp the other bows in general location.  The rear bow should line up with the back belt line of the body, where the bottom of the rear curtain attaches.  Some cars have it slightly behind this point, as it makes a smoother transition, in side view, from body line to top/rear curtain line.  At the end I'll add a further note about this relationship.

 

Then, take a string or line or strap, and run it from front to rear bow, right in the center of the car.  From the side, this will show you the "line" the finished top will take.  This "line" can make all the difference in the world how your finished top looks.

 

Adjust clamps and bows as needed to make this a nice line.  Some early cars were straight, some had a nice gentle hump, so forth.

 

I don't know what you used as a pattern for your bows, but I would give one warning, if one wishes to call it that.  The shapes of the bows as they came from the factory wasn't random, and it usually was uniform for all 3 or 4 bows.  Each bow served a specific purpose, the front bow to wrap around the windshield, the middle bow or bows to shape the top, and the rear bow to match up with the rear curve of the body.  That last one is the most important,  I did one car that had a new rear bow made, not to the curve of the original, and it was impossible to get a smooth rear curtain, at least for me, around the corners.

 

You also may wish to shape the rear bow slightly, so that you have a nice curve then flat spot (for finish trim) at top of bow, and you may wish to cut some reliefs in each side for the pad ends.  Some bows also have reliefs cut in them for straps.

 

Good luck with your top!

 

Oh, and by the way, I have a friend who does a lot of early airplane work, where they have to bend wood.  They use ammonia, soak the wood in a PVC pipe full of an ammonia solution, take it out, and it's like plastic.  It will bend any way you wish, then dry in that shape.  

 

dc

[chistech]

On 3/12/2019 at 12:45 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Mike,  Are you using Formed "T" bolts to wrap partially around the  wood hoop on the outside and then snug up with a nut on the inside of the  irons?  Or are you just using a bolt and nut?  My project will be very similar to yours and I plan to use a "T" bolt to fix the bow to the top irons.  I like how your hoop is finished on the end.  I will try to match what you  done.  I have no wood to even use as a pattern!

Al

My 32’ Olds had one T rivet at the bottom of the bow through the iron and the rest were wood screws. Not knowing how to replicate this rivet I bored the end of the rivet for a machine screw so from the iron side, it all looks like wood screws. From the outside of the bow it still has the T bolt.

[John_Mereness]

9 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

We are about to fix the wood top hoops to the metal brackets. Does anybody know whether or not these should be fitted in line as the photos below or staggered? I have searched photos on the internet and not had much luck at finding photos of this period of car with the top down that shows anything useful.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

I have no clue what it should look like finished, but I have been in same place as you are and we put moving blankets over the car, c-clamped everything together the best we could and where we could not we used smallest size screw to achieve objective, and ran the top up and down on the car like 50 times until we found a place where everything worked and the car looked good too - then we drilled for screws and called it a day.

Edited March 16, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Also, the rear bow and the windshield bow may have like a 1/2 wide by 3/16 deep channel in them for the welting  - allows the  layers of top to sit more flush with the bow instead of all the layers being stacked.

[chistech]

Mike, here are a couple of pictures of my bow made by Restorer 32 (from these forums) and it has the groove that John mentions.

[Mike Macartney]

Well, many thanks guys. The information you have given me is just what I was after. I will go and have a play with the hoops up and see what it looks like with them 'up'.

 

I was interested to see the 'T-bolts'. I have seen them mentioned before but cannot remember actually ever seeing them ever before.

 

Christech - A very nice bow. I doubt if mine will ever look that good.

 

Thanks again for all your response's

[Roger Zimmermann]

Good luck with the roof. It seems that trimacar gave you useful instructions.

[Mike Macartney]

Thank you Roger. trimacar did give me something to think about. I now need to wait until I have some help on hand and find some more clamps!

[Mike Macartney]

Here are some more photos and information on the repairs to the missing sections of exhaust I had to remake.

The left hand new down pipe of the exhaust needed to be bent to line up with the pipe from the silencer (muffler).

The heat from the oxy acetylene torch with a big nozzle in it did the trick.

I wrapped some masking tape around the original exhaust pipe from the silencer to mark where to cut the pipe with the 1mm thick cutting disc.

The sharp edges were then deburred with a file.

I wanted to get the silencer in a level plain with the chassis so that I could make the mountings for it. The photo above is the spirit level on the silencer.

Now for the level on the chassis tube. That will do - not far off the same angle.

As I did not have access to a big pipe bender I had bought sections of exhaust bends to use and some extra larger diameter pipe that I cut up as joiners. Here I have tacked two ends to my bend for the right hand exhaust down pipe.

The downpipe on this side is quite a tight fit between the steering column and the coolant pipe to the bottom of the radiator. In this photo you can see the rubbing down dust on the chassis. Even though the chassis was covered with a cotton sheet the fine particles have managed to get through.

The pipe is a bit close to the tie rod arm between the gearbox and the front axle.

Luckily, I took this photo from a distance. Hence it is difficult to see my bad welding. I should have got somebody to turn the pipe for me whilst I was welding. I wish now I had bought a TIG welder when I retired.

It doesn't look quite so bad when I ground off some of the weld bead.

 

 

[Mike Macartney]

By way of a change I thought I had better try and move my 'donkey saw' that arrived on a broken pallet.

It started to look a bit lighter when I removed the belt guard!

I decided to mount it on lockable casters, so I could move it out of the way, when not in use. I needed to make some spacers for the holes in the casting as I did not have any suitable studding or bolts of the correct diameter.

. . .  and plates to mount the casters onto.

. . . . drilled and tapped the holes for the fixings.

Checked the casters fitted the plates and marked which caster fitted which plate and it's orientation.

Welded the fixing stud to the plate. . . .

. . . . ground the excess stud off where it stuck up through the plate. (after I took this photo!)

I had to cut away this corner of the pallet to fit the first caster.

Success - it will now move away from the back of the MGB so I can use the car when the weather improves! I think I had better try and give the donkey saw a bit of a clean - I believe it may be blue under all that 'crud'! I also need a 3 phase socket up this end of the garage before I can try it out.

[alsfarms]

Your exhaust pipe will certainly be functional.  Good job, just one more step completed.  I have run a power hack saw similar to your new trophy, Nice piece.

Al

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike, 

You are lucky to have 3 phase power available in your shop.  It is very cost prohibitive in my area for three phase.  I would have to stand the cost of running the proper 3 phase power lines then guarantee a certain amount of use every month.  I just could not take the Power Company up on that arrangement.  As a result, I have a decent sized 3 phase converter that I use to run my 3 phase machinery.  I have a question, is the transmission for your Humberette a 3 speed Progressive or Selective unit?

Alan

[Mike Macartney]

Hello Al,

 

Yes I am very lucky to have 3 phase power. The building is a brick and flint barn dating from around 1750's. We bought it as project to turn into a house and workshop. 3-phase was on the site when we bought the barn about 30-years ago. One third is our house and the other two thirds was storage and my 7-car garage. When I retired in 2004 my daughter took over the storage and garage for the classic BMW parts business, www.jaymic.com. I had to build sheds to keep all my toys in.

 

Below is a photo of the gearchange that I took when I first got the Humberette, I would call it sequential??? Reverse is forward, then back for 1st, back for 2nd, and back again for top.

[alsfarms]

Hello Again,

Mike, here on our side of the pond, the transmission type in your Humberette is "Progressive" (like a motorcycle).  That is the same type transmission that is in my Cleveland project.   I can see why this type of transmission soon went out of favor.  A few years ago I had the great opportunity to ride in a 1907 Model H Locomobile.  (That car also utilized a progressive type transmission).  It was a bit of a bugger to shift and enjoy the driving experience.  I guess like anything else, one can get good at that shifting process.  How many HP is your Humberette  V twin rated?  It looks like a nice sized engine, similar to the JAP engine.  Does it have the similar run sound as a Harley Davidson?  I would sure like to take a ride in your car when you are done with it!

Regards,

Alan