Joe in Canada Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 I came across this video of the first Indy 500 in 1911. It just blows me away the conditions that drivers had to race under. I do not think that safety was never even considered as factor back then. With men falling out of their cars onto the track. With the other cars having to swerve to avoid running over the guys laying on the track injured. The pits are right on the inside shoulder of the track with cars loosing control smashing into the pits. I noticed one fellow being carried away without a stretcher and then they say no serious injuries. There also seems to be a lot of people in the area of the accident and even a fellow on a horse. I would think the first few years of auto racing was very much a learning experience. Not being use to the high speed of the cars compared to the horse races of the time. You can see why the put a limit on the size of engines back then before things got out of hand. Was it even safe to be a spectator? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 The 1911 Marmon that won the race had a rear-view mirror: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?48783-Orphan-of-the-Day-02-17-1911-Marmon-Wasp That was one step in the right direction for safety. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozierman Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 The Automobile Quarterly, Volume four, 1969, has great articles on this race. There are other publications that have also weighted in on this race too. I am biased, but I believe the Lozier driven by Ralph Mulford actually won the race. It can't just be a coincidence the Marmon was declared the winner, and it was built in Indianapolis, the same city the race was held! In all reality it probably wouldn't have mattered for the future of the Lozier Automobile Company as most of the entrants, including Marmon, are not producing cars today. The Lozier was NOT a purpose built racer like most of the other entrants were, including the Marmon. I don't think Marmon produced any six cylinder Marmons. Lozier built both four and six cylinder models. Looking forward to reading others comments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 48 minutes ago, aestorrs said: Hi- FYI- Coker tire at one time had a replica of the 1911 wasp I do not know if they still have it or not. Al Storrs Here it is https://www.cokertire.com/blog/marmon-rebuild-8/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 11 hours ago, Lozierman said: In all reality it probably wouldn't have mattered for the future of the Lozier Automobile Company as most of the entrants, including Marmon, are not producing cars today. Marmon was producing Class-8 trucks up until 1997. I have seen a couple of Loziers, including this one: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?53399-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-05-1910-Lozier&highlight=lozier Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 From what I read a while ago, a grandson or son of Ray Harroun repeated something told to him: "The rear view mirror proved to be worthless because it shook so badly." After reading some in-depth accounts of the race, I'm in the same boat as Lozierman: I believe that Ralph Mumford won the race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Fascinating movie showing what it was like in the early days of racing. There supposedly is a similar movie of one of the Fairmount Park road races in Philadelohia about the same era but I have never been able to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, West Peterson said: After reading some in-depth accounts of the race, I'm in the same boat as Lozierman: I believe that Ralph Mumford won the race. Many races back in the day could have had different outcomes. Look at 07 New York to Paris race where the German car Protos made Paris 4 days ahead of anyone else but lost by 26 days in penalties. I believe the Protos car would have won the race if all cars had the same advantages and disadvantages. Races were run very differently in the beginning of automotive endurance / races. It was all a learning process to build better cars as well as rules and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Surprised no one has mentioned the Stutz, 'The Car That Made Good In A Day'. This was the day. The first Stutz made, ran in this race and placed 11th. The way Stutz ballyhooed this achievement, you would think they came first by a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: Surprised no one has mentioned the Stutz, 'The Car That Made Good In A Day'. This was the day. The first Stutz made, ran in this race and placed 11th. The way Stutz ballyhooed this achievement, you would think they came first by a mile. Well, that's true, but in a time when getting in the family car and driving to a town 50 miles away was an all day adventure, and one packed a lunch, then such a race showed the endurance of the Stutz, if not the speed and luck to finish higher.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Dorey Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Cool race, thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Looks like a lot of excitement. Not sure there would be a safe place anywhere near the speedway. You would of had to pay attention to everything going on. Still would be more fun than a NASCAR race today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Great video. You have always had to be a little crazy to be a successful race driver but back then you had to be insane! In addition to all the other safety challenges it looks like they are racing in the fog, from all the dust. You can see why they put the bricks down... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Sure are a lot of neat cars in the spectator and pit parking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Here is a car for the record books a 1910 Fiat 4 cyl. 28.5 liters 290 Hp. top speed of 132 ml. per hr. in 1913. A good video showing the assembly of the engine and chassis. Notice the size of the piston on the seat and the weight it would have been in cast iron. We have come a long way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 That is a blimp engine put on an automobile! Such an impressive machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Here is the beast in action: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 There's a pretty good book by on this race titled Blood and Smoke by Charles Leerhsen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Brass is Best said: Here is the beast in action: I like the second video as the car is being driven as it was meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Buck Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) On 1/23/2018 at 1:27 PM, Joe in Canada said: Here is a car for the record books a 1910 Fiat 4 cyl. 28.5 liters 290 Hp. top speed of 132 ml. per hr. in 1913. A good video showing the assembly of the engine and chassis. Notice the size of the piston on the seat and the weight it would have been in cast iron. We have come a long way. And so it was - the 'Beast of Turin' was off the charts. However, in neighboring Maranello, a young Enzo Ferrari said, 'yes', race cars must be red and 'no' they must not sound like a tug boat. Enzo rolled up his sleeves - his creative genius took over. Soon the garage door opens and voila, out comes the Ferrari 312 B2 ... !! Yes the race car is red and no, it does not sound anything like the 'Beast of Turin'. Give a listen to Enzo Ferrari's Concerto #12 in b flat: ________________________________________________ And to keep the thread ligit: _________________________________________________ Ferrari made it's Indy 500 debut in 1952. Coincidentally it was also Ferrari's lastPHOTO BY INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY #37 FERRARI MAKES FIRST AND ONLY INDY 500 APPEARANCE Edited January 24, 2018 by Uncle_Buck (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modeleh Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) On 2018-01-23 at 7:42 AM, Joe in Canada said: Many races back in the day could have had different outcomes. Look at 07 New York to Paris race where the German car Protos made Paris 4 days ahead of anyone else but lost by 26 days in penalties. I believe the Protos car would have won the race if all cars had the same advantages and disadvantages. Races were run very differently in the beginning of automotive endurance / races. It was all a learning process to build better cars as well as rules and safety. In my opinion the three cars that finished that event were all winners. It was the determination of the crewmen of each team that got the cars around the world. Against impossible odds really. The Thomas was permitted to travel through some railroad tunnels in the Rockies while the other teams had to go the hard way. There was a case of sabotage to one of the foreign cars while the team were asleep. Simply a case of someone trying to be patriotic and give their countrymen an edge towards victory, but the Italian team had trouble with their transaxle and took the top cover off to discover a handful of nails had been thrown inside. The team lost several days waiting for replacement gears. At many of the overnight stops, the local Germans, French or Italians had welcomed their respective teams with a patriotic celebration that would often carry on into the early hours with plenty of booze and the poor guys would have to get up early to hit the road again. And the next night repeat the celebrations. In a small village in Siberia the Italian Zust car passed by a horse and carriage which got spooked and tragically a small child was killed. The crew members were imprisoned for several days. Pretty hard to win a race when you’re behind bars and can’t speak the language. It was really an endurance test of the men as much as the machines. Edited January 24, 2018 by Modeleh (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 I mentioned a book, The Longest Automobile Race written by George Schuster, one of the drivers of the Thomas Flyer here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?44600-Orphan-of-the-day-9-19-1909-Thomas-Flyer&highlight=schuster If one can find a copy, its a most interesting read. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, 8E45E said: I mentioned a book, The Longest Automobile Race written by George Schuster, one of the drivers of the Thomas Flyer here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?44600-Orphan-of-the-day-9-19-1909-Thomas-Flyer&highlight=schuster If one can find a copy, its a most interesting read. Craig https://www.amazon.com/Longest-Auto-Race-George-Schuster/dp/B0007DTU8S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I'm aware they appear on Amazon from time to time. However, I want to look at a potential purchase in person if it is used. I have bought used books and magazines in the past, usually a second-hand bookstores and swap meets. My experience has shown a disturbing amount of 'hurt' books with missing and/or torn pages, pen markings, etc. If I'm going to lay out any $$$ for a book, it must be in excellent to mint shape. (Yes I'm fussy!) Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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