Car colors for high end Families?

[CatBird]

Quote from Coachbuilt Cars

Brewster kept a record of each family’s family crest and colors, which would be applied to subsequent bodies ordered through the firm. J. P. Morgan's was dark bottle green, the Vanderbilt's, a special maroon, and the Astor's and Stevens' two different shades of blue. Some families had two sets of colors, a darker one for the closed winter car and a lighter color for their fair-weather touring car. Brewster reserved certain colors for the exclusive use of each respective family, and new customers often had a hard time selecting an “available” color. Master painter Theodore (Ted) Proudfoot, handled the majority of Brewster’s pin striping as well as their crests and hand lettering.

 

In the December, 1921 issue of Autobody, the magazine described the scene in Brewster’s paint department: "The extent to which the demands for exclusive family colors is carried can befit be appreciated by a visit to their [Brewster's] grinding room where there are on exhibition several thousand small panels, each bearing the color of some customer, different at least in shade from that of any of its neighbors. Many Brewster automobile bodies today carry the same colors as the ante-bel­lum carriages of the owners' ancestors."

 

We have a Brewster that is light blue paint. What family could have this color in their Family Lineage?

[Guest]

Bill, as this car was originally owned by Ms. Pons, I think it would be safe to surmise the light blue was not a "family color" but rather an "available color".

By the way, great car!

[mercer09]

Bugatti blue......................................

[CatBird]

5 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Bill, as this car was originally owned by Ms. Pons, I think it would be safe to surmise the light blue was not a "family color" but rather an "available color".

By the way, great car!

 

 

Maybe she liked blue. She was French American, French have a long time affaire with blue

 

Bleu de France (Blue of France) is a colour traditionally used to represent France. Blue has been used in the heraldry of the French monarchy since at least the 12th century, with the golden fleurs-de-lis of the kings always set on a blue (heraldic "azure") background. A brighter version, based on the blue of the French Tricolour, is used in modern times, particularly in a sporting context. French national teams in all sports will normally use blue as their main colour.

Blue is France's national racing colour, therefore several French motorsport teams have used it, including Alpine, Amilcar, Ballot, Bugatti, Delage, Delahaye, Gordini, Ligier, Mathis, Matra, Panhard, Pescarolo Sport, Prost Grand Prix, Rondeau, Salmson, Talbot-Lago, Voisin. 

[Guest]

That's as good a guess as any! 

[John_S_in_Penna]

There have been many millions of car buyers, and

each is an individual with his own individuality and taste.

Unless you knew this Mrs. Pons, or Miss Pons,

it's not possible to know why she liked certain colors.

 

We can at least be glad that so many color choices 

were offered--a happy contrast to today's monotonous

colors of gray, black, gray, white, gray, and gray.

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

There have been many millions of car buyers, and

each is an individual with his own individuality and taste.

 

We can at least be glad that so many color choices 

were offered--a happy contrast to today's monotonous

colors of gray, black, gray, white, gray, and gray.

Can one still order a brand new Cadillac in a previous year's color? 

 

Cadillac Motor Division had that option for years.

 

Craig

[60FlatTop]

This reminds me of the time I was guest speaker at a meeting of the local John Deere Club meeting, a room full of green hats and jackets.

 

I opened with "What an honor to be here. If my Grandma O'Brien was here she'd think we died and went to heaven."

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

50 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Can one still order a brand new Cadillac in a previous year's color? 

Cadillac Motor Division had that option for years.

 

I don't know.  A few years ago I interviewed

a retired high-level GM executive (Vice Chairman)

and he said that a buyer COULD get custom orders

from GM when he was there.  He was a dedicated

car guy, retired now for about 6 years.

 

If anyone knows about the present, that would be

a great way to break out of the current limited palette.

Edited November 6, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[poci1957]

59 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Can one still order a brand new Cadillac in a previous year's color? 

Cadillac Motor Division had that option for years.

 

Don't get your hopes up.  I can't speak directly for Cadillac but the production automakers have all been getting away from special order colors for years as they are very inefficient to deal with in production.  At Ford they have a limited number of pre-approved special colors that are available for special order on some trucks and police cars.  I think the current minimum is 25 units before they will produce them due to the need to set up a batch in their paint system and only available at certain plants.  So if you order, say, one orange truck and no one else in the country orders 24 more for that plant then they are never built. 

 

This is also one reason you don't see many two tone new trucks anymore, each two tone had to go through the paint shop twice and be masked off between colors, so they are now only generally available on higher end models at extra cost.  Even the old police car black and white scheme is no longer available as a painted finish; if you see a factory black & white on anything 2012 or newer the doors and roof are a vinyl overlay, Todd C

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, poci1957 said:

 

Don't get your hopes up.  I can't speak directly for Cadillac but the production automakers have all been getting away from special order colors for years as they are very inefficient to deal with in production.  At Ford they have a limited number of pre-approved special colors that are available for special order on some trucks and police cars.  I think the current minimum is 25 units before they will produce them due to the need to set up a batch in their paint system and only available at certain plants.  So if you order, say, one orange truck and no one else in the country orders 24 more for that plant then they are never built. 

 

This is also one reason you don't see many two tone new trucks anymore, each two tone had to go through the paint shop twice and be masked off between colors, so they are now only generally available on higher end models at extra cost.  Even the old police car black and white scheme is no longer available as a painted finish; if you see a factory black & white on anything 2012 or newer the doors and roof are a vinyl overlay, Todd C

I know Porsche still has their 'Paint to Sample' color choice, but its a VERY expensive option.   Paccar (Kenworth, Peterbilt), Freightliner and International also do custom colors for their big trucks.  As I recall, Ford does have a catalog of 'fleet' paint formulas for long-time repeat customers, but there would be a minimum run quantity and possibly long lead time.

 

I believe Ford's PPV body shells are painted black less the doors, with the doors painted white on separate lines, and then get assembled after the painting process; not a mask job with two trips through the paint booth.

 

Craig

[poci1957]

20 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

I believe Ford's PPV body shells are painted black less the doors, with the doors painted white on separate lines, and then get assembled after the painting process; not a mask job with two trips through the paint booth.

 

Crown Victorias were available with painted doors but since they went out of production in 2011 Ford police vehicles come with decals if black & white two tone is ordered.

[CatBird]

7 hours ago, poci1957 said:

 

Don't get your hopes up.  I can't speak directly for Cadillac but the production automakers have all been getting away from special order colors for years as they are very inefficient to deal with in production.  At Ford they have a limited number of pre-approved special colors that are available for special order on some trucks and police cars.  I think the current minimum is 25 units before they will produce them due to the need to set up a batch in their paint system and only available at certain plants.  So if you order, say, one orange truck and no one else in the country orders 24 more for that plant then they are never built. 

 

This is also one reason you don't see many two tone new trucks anymore, each two tone had to go through the paint shop twice and be masked off between colors, so they are now only generally available on higher end models at extra cost.  Even the old police car black and white scheme is no longer available as a painted finish; if you see a factory black & white on anything 2012 or newer the doors and roof are a vinyl overlay, Todd C

5

 

Chuckle. Ford and Brewster were totally different animals. From Brewster, and i quote:

"Brewster kept a record of each family’s family crest and colors, which would be applied to subsequent bodies ordered through the firm. J. P. Morgan's was dark bottle green, the Vanderbilt's, a special maroon, and the Astor's and Stevens' two different shades of blue. Some families had two sets of colors, a darker one for the closed winter car and a lighter color for their fair-weather touring car. Brewster reserved certain colors for the exclusive use of each respective family, and new customers often had a hard time selecting an “available” color.'

"In the December, 1921 issue of Autobody, the magazine described the scene in Brewster’s paint department: "The extent to which the demands for exclusive family colors is carried can befit be appreciated by a visit to their [Brewster's] grinding room where there are on exhibition several thousand small panels, each bearing the color of some customer, different at least in shade from that of any of its neighbors. Many Brewster automobile bodies today carry the same colors as the ante-bel­lum carriages of the owners' ancestors."

"As the interior appointments of the vehicle were very important to each and every customer, Brewster provided room on each order form for the size and weight of each customer, and just as importantly, their chauffeur. The seats could be ordered in a virtually endless combination of styles, colors and materials. Even the density and size of a cushion’s internal springs was optional. Cabinets and interior accessories were available in an equally endless variety of materials, styles and color combinations. Each vehicle was truly custom made to suit the par­ticular requirements of each customer."
 

Ah, so what, it is more likely Brewster would more likely had specific paint colors available than Ford, Cadillac,  So I will keep looking. But I don't be worried about having my hopes dashed. Life is the fun of the Journey...  And I am having a blast!!! BTW My Ford parts are all black.

[poci1957]

My fault bringing up the Ford reference Bill, sorry about that, I wanted to keep the reference to special paint from going off topic and did not exactly succeed.  Nothing more interesting to me than old coachbuilder stories, congratulations on the Brewster, Todd C

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bill Caddyshack said:

 

 .....a visit to their [Brewster's] grinding room where there are on exhibition several thousand small panels, each bearing the color of some customer, different at least in shade from that of any of its neighbors.
 

 

I wonder if any of these records still exist today or if it was all lost to the sands of time?

[poci1957]

17 hours ago, Bill Caddyshack said:

"As the interior appointments of the vehicle were very important to each and every customer, Brewster provided room on each order form for the size and weight of each customer, and just as importantly, their chauffeur. The seats could be ordered in a virtually endless combination of styles, colors and materials. Even the density and size of a cushion’s internal springs was optional. Cabinets and interior accessories were available in an equally endless variety of materials, styles and color combinations. Each vehicle was truly custom made to suit the par­ticular requirements of each customer."

 

Just an anecdote on the seat specs, I read a story from the coachbuilt era that an upper crust lady ordered a new car with a Derham body.  When it arrived she was gone on a trip to Europe so the trimmer built the seats to her previous specifications.  She returned and was told the car was ready and said that was certainly impossible since she had not gone in for her seat fitting.  She tried the seat and it was totally unacceptable, so they made a new set.  That one was also unacceptable so they made another.  Also unacceptable and now at risk of cancelling the order, so the harried trimmer re-installed the first seat and it was pronounced perfect.  Todd C   

 

[Rusty_OToole]

George Burns told a story about a Cadillac limousine he and Gracie bought when they first hit it big in radio. Gracie, who was rather petite, complained that the seat was too high, her feet did not touch the floor. George said 'but Gracie you can't tell the Cadillac people, that car has a custom built seat' she replied ' but mine isn't'.

 

They took the car back and of course the Cadillac dealer was happy to change the seat.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Having spent a good deal of my life in the apparel business, my first thought upon seeing your Brewster was "French Blue". There's no question in my mind that this was what Miss Pons intended. If you go to Google Images and enter "French blue", you'll see many different interpretations of the color. It was always the color of their military. This particular mid depth, somewhat grayed blue was an important color to the French, although, surprisingly, it isn't present in the nation's flag. 

 

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I don't know the origin of it, but I just recalled that there was a "Brewster Green" color that I would come across from time to time. I'm not saying that it had anything to do with the car manufacturer, but if you enter "Brewster Green" into Google Images, you'll see the color on both Model As and much newer cars.

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[8E45E]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎06 at 12:55 PM, poci1957 said:

 

Crown Victorias were available with painted doors but since they went out of production in 2011 Ford police vehicles come with decals if black & white two tone is ordered.

Here are some brand new 2003 Crown Victorias at the CHP in Sacramento awaiting outfitting with decals, lights, etc.

 

 

 

Craig

[CHuDWah]

On 11/5/2017 at 9:25 PM, Bill Caddyshack said:

 

 

Maybe she liked blue. She was French American, French have a long time affaire with blue

 

Bleu de France (Blue of France) is a colour traditionally used to represent France. Blue has been used in the heraldry of the French monarchy since at least the 12th century, with the golden fleurs-de-lis of the kings always set on a blue (heraldic "azure") background. A brighter version, based on the blue of the French Tricolour, is used in modern times, particularly in a sporting context. French national teams in all sports will normally use blue as their main colour.

Blue is France's national racing colour, therefore several French motorsport teams have used it, including Alpine, Amilcar, Ballot, Bugatti, Delage, Delahaye, Gordini, Ligier, Mathis, Matra, Panhard, Pescarolo Sport, Prost Grand Prix, Rondeau, Salmson, Talbot-Lago, Voisin. 

 

 

Dunno if it's true but I've read that during the Revolution, Washington had the gun (cannon) carriages painted blue in recognition of French support.

[CatBird]

alsancle Sent me an ad in 1977 advertising my 1934 Brewster. It appears that the color in 1977 was black with a polished aluminum hood. I wonder what color it was when it was made?

This is one of the great things about collecting and learning and how we support each other.

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I guess that without more information about your Brewster's last paint job, you can only speculate. If I had to guess, I'd say some prior owner thought that a limo, even a short one, should be black. He may not have understood or appreciated the significance of the original blue color. In my experience, I have found that these sorts of mid range blues often look best with the addition of some navy or white to set them off. The French Blue airliner is a good example of that. On their own they can be less attractive to some people. Beyond that, though, I have to say that your car clearly is French Blue and the first owner was a French opera star. The possibility that is just a coincidence is just too great. I'd say that the last person to paint the car it's present color must have found some evidence of it's original color and choose to restore it to that. I, for one, am glad he did. To me it's surely a part of the unique car's pedigree.

James Sheehan 

[CatBird]

Fran Roxas did the restoration. Maybe I can find him to research his records.

[Guest]

That's pretty cool to find a 40 year old add for your current car. 

[CatBird]

26 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

That's pretty cool to find a 40 year old add for your current car. 

ALSANCLE who is a member of this forum and posted this ad. Networking is great!!!