Magic Potions

[avgwarhawk]

A week or so ago Willie (Old Tank) posted that his carb was acting up.  Idles poorly and ethanol nightmares.  Another member, EmTee, suggested K-100 fuel treatment.    http://k-100.com   Now, I'm not a believer in snake oils, magic potions, elixirs or fairy dust but being this product is favored by those in the boating world where there is nothing but water under and around their engines I decided to give it a try in my 60 Electra.   I purchased just one bottle and filled the tank with the instructed amount per gallon of fuel.   I honestly feel/experienced a marked improvement of overall throttle response.   Minor hesitation that remained after cleaning up the carb a month or so ago has all but vanished.   Overall performance feels better.   Now, I may be imagining it but I don't think so.  Of the other tune-up in a can products that I have tried, none have made a noticeable change like K-100.    

 

Has anyone tried the K-100 product? 

[dei]

Interesting.

Claims to have many benefits including octane boost but really interested in the two year gas stabling. Of course the boater endorsement doesn't hurt either. 

Can't hurt to check one can out.

Thanks.

 

[avgwarhawk]

I thought the same. For $8 I would give it a try. Much to surprise the tune up in a can does appear to do something. I ordered another bottle to run it through again. See if the change is as I experienced.  

[60FlatTop]

My Nephew is a mechanic for the Niagara Falls Park and lives about 5 miles from Youngstown. I sent him a text and asked. He doesn't know the guys personally, but he says they have a good product line. He thought Advance Auto handled the products around here.

 

For 8 bucks taking a chance on what a small town rural New York company makes compared the $2.50 a gallon for stuff a bunch of Senators and official regulators demand you put in your car (that caused the problem in the first place), I'd spend the 8 bucks. I don't see them marching people out of Youngstown in handcuffs the way they do out of guvermint buildings.

 

Nice little restaurant on the river in Youngstown. Good place to spend some money.

Bernie

[avgwarhawk]

NAPA carries this product. I ordered off Amazon. Let them do the driving!

[EmTee]

When I bought my (used) boat 4 years ago I took it to my 'boat guy' to have him check it over (3.0L MerCruiser I/O).  I didn't expect him to find anything serious, as I had looked it over pretty well and had a short list of things for him to address.  Well, even though the boat dealer I bought it from claimed to have 'tuned it up', it apparently idled like crap when my guy ran it.  He found evidence of phase separated ethanol-laced fuel so he cleaned the carb, added fresh gas and K-100.  I added another bottle with the next fill-up and I have had no issues with it.  (I run ethanol-free 89 octane exclusively now).  He has a 'before/after' display with a fuel bowl that looks like it was dug up from someone's yard and the half soaked in K-100 looks like new.  This is one product that I would not be afraid to try if the alternative is a carb rebuild...

[avgwarhawk]

Good experience and certainly the reason you suggested the product.  I can not say any other magic in a bottle did much of anything until I tried this product.  This the reason I started this thread.  Want to see if others notice improved performance. 

[old-tank]

http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_gas_treatment_products.html

Snake oil.

[avgwarhawk]

Snake oil?  In some respects yes.   This is interesting.       Check this link below.    

 

https://ttrno.com/blogs/news/4761782-ethanol-vs-fuel-treatments-k100-success-story

 

 

[Beemon]

The only magics in a bottle I've used are Seafoam, MMO, Lucas HD Oil Stabilizer and KW Trans Seal Repair. The KW and MMO I've used per Willie's suggestions and have helped alleviate leaks with the Dynaflow - the MMO went in the tank to lube the upper cylinder and valve stems of my new engine. I used the Lucas in the diff with some 85W-140 lube to keep everything sticky. When I wasn't dumping MMO in the gas tank,  I used to dump a whole can of Seafoan in the tank after a carb rebuild. Drive to the gas station down the hill, fill up, and drive back up under load. Always seemed to help,  one of my 4GCs was really bad and it cleaned itself out before I got home. 

 

I'll see about the K100, too, since I like joining in on collaborative efforts like the clutch fan threads. 

[old-tank]

The only way to prevent or treat phase separation is to add more alcohol.  You still have the water dissolved in the alcohol and now more alcohol...not a good fuel!

The K-100 main ingredients are alcohol solvents; the other proprietary ingredients are in a class of chemicals found in living things and nutritional supplements like fish oil capsules.

Other highly touted additives like 44K are mostly mineral spirits (paint thinner, parts washer solvent, charcoal lighter).

The only ones with a chance of working are used full strength like the direct injection of injector cleaners.  On my last carb problem a tiny idle jet was clogged with a sticky substance.  Some of those products might work if I ran the carb dry and then filled the bowls directly with the concentrated product and let it sit overnight.  But what new damage would result?  Diluted in 20 gallon of gas...not likely.  And if you have ever had a carb apart and understand the function what part of it is going to get cleaned?

Snake oil.  $8 a treatment = 4 gallons of gas x 15 mpg = 60 miles behind that big ol' steering wheel.

[avgwarhawk]

I cannot say that any other pour in the tank/transmission  

27 minutes ago, old-tank said:

The only way to prevent or treat phase separation is to add more alcohol.  You still have the water dissolved in the alcohol and now more alcohol...not a good fuel!

The K-100 main ingredients are alcohol solvents; the other proprietary ingredients are in a class of chemicals found in living things and nutritional supplements like fish oil capsules.

Other highly touted additives like 44K are mostly mineral spirits (paint thinner, parts washer solvent, charcoal lighter).

The only ones with a chance of working are used full strength like the direct injection of injector cleaners.  On my last carb problem a tiny idle jet was clogged with a sticky substance.  Some of those products might work if I ran the carb dry and then filled the bowls directly with the concentrated product and let it sit overnight.  But what new damage would result?  Diluted in 20 gallon of gas...not likely.  And if you have ever had a carb apart and understand the function what part of it is going to get cleaned?

Snake oil.  $8 a treatment = 4 gallons of gas x 15 mpg = 60 miles behind that big ol' steering wheel.

 

 

Darned if you do.  Darned if you don't. More alcohol or more water.  The choice is ours.   Injection cleaners I used when spinning wrenches. Can and hose hooked to the fuel rail.  Shut off pump.  Close off return line.  Fire at will.      Other than melting multec injectors this cleaning process did work very well.  But getting fuel and cleaner directly on top(ported)  intake valves with the injection setup should keep the intake valves very clean as well as the injectors themselves .  And it does.  Not so much with the direct injection set up. A growing problem with direct injection motors of today.        Concerning a large concentration of cleaners sitting in a carb overnight opposed to small amounts getting passed through with the gas as one drives must work to some degree.   Some gas stations have these additives/cleaners.   Is this just something to pitch to the payer at the pump?    There must be some benefit I would imagine.       

Edited August 3, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Snake oil?  In some respects yes.   This is interesting.       Check this link below.    

 

https://ttrno.com/blogs/news/4761782-ethanol-vs-fuel-treatments-k100-success-story

 

If I interpret this correctly, it means that K-100 keeps the water dissolved in the fuel.    The second part of this is that this water-fuel mixture apparently combusts with no obvious performance degradation.  Which seems to raise an obvious question: why don't refineries add water to gas?  It's gotta be cheaper than oil, no?

[Beemon]

Water is not compressible, but if diluted and mixed, its no longer water and would be a substance that includes oxygen and hydrogen. This I think would be the only real benefit of k100 from the study above, it eliminates any phase separation. The real question is, what chemical solution are you really burning? Because it's not gas and water anymore. 

[avgwarhawk]

49 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

 

If I interpret this correctly, it means that K-100 keeps the water dissolved in the fuel.    The second part of this is that this water-fuel mixture apparently combusts with no obvious performance degradation.  Which seems to raise an obvious question: why don't refineries add water to gas?  It's gotta be cheaper than oil, no?

 

The water added to gas is done at the local level!   The underground tanks are not immune to water.   Last week a gas station near me had contaminated gas.   A multitude of cars that filled that day were dead on the road just a few miles after filling.    

[avgwarhawk]

41 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Water is not compressible, but if diluted and mixed, its no longer water and would be a substance that includes oxygen and hydrogen. This I think would be the only real benefit of k100 from the study above, it eliminates any phase separation. The real question is, what chemical solution are you really burning? Because it's not gas and water anymore. 

 

 

That is the way I read it.   The water is of very small proportions  that it can be burned with the gas as it passes the intake valves.  It is still water, just minute amounts and not pooling at the bottom of the tank.  

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

The real question is, what chemical solution are you really burning? Because it's not gas and water anymore. 

You started with 10 gallons of E10 fuel (9 gallons gasoline and 1 gallon ethanol), water was introduced to the point of phase separation (don't know how much, but let's say 0.5 gallons), alcohol was added (suppose another 0.5 gallons).  Now you have 11 gallons of junk that is 82% gasoline and 18% ethanol water solution.  Your engine would run, but not well!

[avgwarhawk]

7 minutes ago, old-tank said:

You started with 10 gallons of E10 fuel (9 gallons gasoline and 1 gallon ethanol), water was introduced to the point of phase separation (don't know how much, but let's say 0.5 gallons), alcohol was added (suppose another 0.5 gallons).  Now you have 11 gallons of junk that is 82% gasoline and 18% ethanol water solution.  Your engine would run, but not well!

In practice the engine performance was much better.  Thus the reason for this thread. 

[old-tank]

11 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

In practice the engine performance was much better.  Thus the reason for this thread. 

That's the good news...I just don't understand it.

Maybe it was not the carb; possibly freed up some sticky valves?

Edited August 3, 2017 by old-tank (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

1 minute ago, old-tank said:

That's the good news...I just don't understand it.

Me either! Going to try another bottle bottle.  Then maybe get some more K100.

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

In practice the engine performance was much better.  Thus the reason for this thread. 

This sounds like those old water injection systems then JC Whitney et al used to sell:

 

"Ever notice how much better your car runs right after it rains?  Now you can have that every day with our new Hydro Boost system.  A simple installation and you'll have that increased performance whenever you drive.  Only $59.95.  Buy yours now!" 

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

Going to try another bottle bottle

Yep, but not for the car  .

[avgwarhawk]

14 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Yep, but not for the car  .

Yep!

[avgwarhawk]

57 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

This sounds like those old water injection systems then JC Whitney et al used to sell:

 

"Ever notice how much better your car runs right after it rains?  Now you can have that every day with our new Hydro Boost system.  A simple installation and you'll have that increased performance whenever you drive.  Only $59.95.  Buy yours now!" 

There is some truth to rain and better running engine. It is to my understanding that some high compression engines will knock/detonate no matter what is tried to prevent it.  Water injection solves the problem. Maybe replacing the high dome pistons to reduce compression is the better solution. ?

[EmTee]

The only other fuel additive that I use in my cars (once or twice a year) is Chevron Techron.  I wait until Autozone has a 'buy one get one free' sale.  I have no 'Top Tier' gas stations anywhere near me...

Edited August 4, 2017 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

If you like your fuel you can keep it. If you like your additive you can keep it .....................................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

5 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

If you like your fuel you can keep it. If you like your additive you can keep it .....................................Bob

You are now required to buy an electric vehicle.......the government. 

[Bhigdog]

3 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

You are now required to buy an electric vehicle.......the government. 

 

But you can only get it from an approved dealer at the price they dictate........................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

40 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

But you can only get it from an approved dealer at the price they dictate........................Bob

Or penalties will be accessed....the IRS.

[60FlatTop]

If the vehicle, fuel, or additive are used in a location other than the point of purchase all taxes must voluntarily be submitted to the appropriate collection location in the area of actual use.

 

Rural broadband coming to a transaction near you. They're gonna git cha. "But we are helping the farmers become competitive in the 21st century."

[Airy Cat]

Occasionally I will run 5 gallons of 100+ octane Av gas and the rest premium gas with Lucas fuel treatment.  Been doing this for the last 20 years and everything runs great.

[Dan O]

On 8/3/2017 at 6:05 PM, KongaMan said:

This sounds like those old water injection systems then JC Whitney et al used to sell:

 

"Ever notice how much better your car runs right after it rains?  Now you can have that every day with our new Hydro Boost system.  A simple installation and you'll have that increased performance whenever you drive.  Only $59.95.  Buy yours now!" 

 

I always wanted a JC Whitney water injector because, yes, my little fuel injected 1972 2002tii did run better on foggy days, WAY better.  Little champ just zoomed with damp intake.

 

AND I used to get water in a tank of gas fairly regularly in the late 1970's for some reason and would cure the problem by just pouring in an entire bottle of rubbing alcohol to break up the water and run it thru the carb.  It worked and was a lot easier than draining the tank.  And yes, Techron does help clean the injectors and SeaFoam, and Purple Magic and MMO and I'll probably blow some dough on K-100.  I think all these makers figure some dude with an extra $10 will spring for a bottle!

[NTX5467]

"Top Tier" gasoline has little to do with ethanol content or related phase separation issues.  It's more about fuel "detergents" and such that are supposed to address particular fuel-related issues of "cleanliness".  On YouTube, there's a guy names "Chris Fixx" that has many videos of tests he's done with fuel system "cleaners" and inspects the piston tops of the test vehicles, before and after, with a borescope for his computer.  MANY of the "killer" "max cleaning action" fuel additives clean little, with many cleaning "none", with respect to accumulated carbon on the piston top.  Even the more accepted "good" ones strike me as being more marginal than really effective in this "de-carbon" function.  

 

I suspect that much of this is due to EPA regulations, which apparently have been around since the early 1970s.  Dad's pickup used to have issues wit the power piston in the Q=Jet sticking.  Gulf (the original) used to have a fuel cleaner additive called "Tri-Ad" that would free it up within about 100 miles of driving, if that far.  It worked great and then it disappeared!  The local service station owner stated that it did work great, but they had to discontinue it due to EPA regulations.  What it was replaced with didn't work nearly as good, if at all, for what I wanted it to work for.

 

The other thing is that if you use one of these liquids, it doesn't work, then you figure there was nothing to fix anyway?  If it works, so much the better!  Some do, some not so much.  Some work better with carbs than FI.  What works with normal FI might NOT work with Direct Injection--separate liquids for them!

 

NTX5467

[avgwarhawk]

4 hours ago, Dan O said:

 

I always wanted a JC Whitney water injector because, yes, my little fuel injected 1972 2002tii did run better on foggy days, WAY better.  Little champ just zoomed with damp intake.

 

AND I used to get water in a tank of gas fairly regularly in the late 1970's for some reason and would cure the problem by just pouring in an entire bottle of rubbing alcohol to break up the water and run it thru the carb.  It worked and was a lot easier than draining the tank.  And yes, Techron does help clean the injectors and SeaFoam, and Purple Magic and MMO and I'll probably blow some dough on K-100.  I think all these makers figure some dude with an extra $10 will spring for a bottle!

Interesting....the rubbing alcohol that appeared to work. 

[avgwarhawk]

5 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

"Top Tier" gasoline has little to do with ethanol content or related phase separation issues.  It's more about fuel "detergents" and such that are supposed to address particular fuel-related issues of "cleanliness".  On YouTube, there's a guy names "Chris Fixx" that has many videos of tests he's done with fuel system "cleaners" and inspects the piston tops of the test vehicles, before and after, with a borescope for his computer.  MANY of the "killer" "max cleaning action" fuel additives clean little, with many cleaning "none", with respect to accumulated carbon on the piston top.  Even the more accepted "good" ones strike me as being more marginal than really effective in this "de-carbon" function.  

 

I suspect that much of this is due to EPA regulations, which apparently have been around since the early 1970s.  Dad's pickup used to have issues wit the power piston in the Q=Jet sticking.  Gulf (the original) used to have a fuel cleaner additive called "Tri-Ad" that would free it up within about 100 miles of driving, if that far.  It worked great and then it disappeared!  The local service station owner stated that it did work great, but they had to discontinue it due to EPA regulations.  What it was replaced with didn't work nearly as good, if at all, for what I wanted it to work for.

 

The other thing is that if you use one of these liquids, it doesn't work, then you figure there was nothing to fix anyway?  If it works, so much the better!  Some do, some not so much.  Some work better with carbs than FI.  What works with normal FI might NOT work with Direct Injection--separate liquids for them!

 

NTX5467

 

My interest is not so much the top tier gas and cleaning capabilities or lack there of. From my experience with gas, if it is clean out of the storage tank it will be clean entering the fuel system until final burn. However, octane is something I have interest in. I'm more so interested in the additives that may or may not keep our idle carbs clean.   Our carbs sit and fester with gas that sits. Of the magic potions I have tried only this K100 has made a difference in performance. If that is the case for me is then running this magic potion going to prevent carb problems from sitting long periods of time?  Time will tell. 

[old-tank]

6 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Interesting....the rubbing alcohol that appeared to work. 

Bench test (carefully in your driveway) first, since rubbing alcohol is already 30% water.  Magic Potions may for may not work, but at least there is a better chance they will not hurt anything than using products not labeled for that use.  (kinda like putting trans fluid in the crankcase  --- I'm gonna duck and hide now before all of the "bah gaaawd I've been doing that for 40 years and ain't never...")

[KongaMan]

Common rubbing alcohol is typically 30% water, but isopropyl alcohol that is 90+% is readily available (Walgreens, Walmart, etc.).  99% alcohol is also available (e.g. from Amazon), although it may be harder to find locally.

[Beemon]

You know I gotta say with this Washington heat wave, it's the first time I've experienced vapor lock. I can definitely say the car runs better in 70% humidity with the rains. I'm pretty sure the Australians used water injection to combat extreme heat. Plus colder air is more dense, so the little bit of water in the intake is probably enough to keep ambient intake temperatures cool.

[NTX5467]

As far as the intake, remember that fast-moving columns of air are cooler than slower columns.  Add a little volatile liquid to the mix and the temperature drops even more.  The vapor lock issue is not in the intake manifold runners, but back where all of the engine heat exits from under the vehicle, or thereabouts. Add the heat radiated off of the pavement and the heat level expands a good deal.

 

The atf in the motor oil was supposed to be an old trick to quieten ticking valve lifters.  The atf, being of a thinner viscosity than motor oil, it was supposed to be able to get in the nooks and crannies of the engine to establish oil flow so that the oil's detergents could do their work to keep things cleaned.  At least that was the theory.  Never did see or hear that it worked. ATF and water in a Coke bottle, shaken (not stirred) and then drizzled into the carb throttle body area at fast idle (maintained by a 2nd person) made lots of noise, a good deal of smoke, and was supposed to de-carbon the combustion chambers quickly.  From the pops and bangs the engine made, just the percussiveness of those sounds should have knocked those deposits loose.  Either way, less expensive than the more expensive name-brand additives of the day. 

 

"Shade tree fixes" . . .at best.  Of course, many believed those things worked.  You HAVE to believe!  Everybody that did these things was too poor to remove the cylinder head to see if they did!

 

NTX5467 

[avgwarhawk]

19 hours ago, old-tank said:

Bench test (carefully in your driveway) first, since rubbing alcohol is already 30% water.  Magic Potions may for may not work, but at least there is a better chance they will not hurt anything than using products not labeled for that use.  (kinda like putting trans fluid in the crankcase  --- I'm gonna duck and hide now before all of the "bah gaaawd I've been doing that for 40 years and ain't never...")

 

I have no plans on testing anything outside of bottled miracle juice at the local NAPA. ?  My interest was sparked by K100 as I noticed a difference. Try a second dose next week or so.