American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mt20/the-mitosinka-collection/lots/r0011-1930-rolls-royce-phantom-i-newmarket-convertible-sedan-by-brewster/919143

 

The auction/sale/collection has some really neat mascots in it too !!!  Plus, some really neat just stuff in general.  Plus, oddly a bunch of Duesenberg parts and no Duesenberg.  And some cool Stutz's.  And unfortunately, an L-29 Cord Brougham just when I am not in an opening my wallet mood (a car like this needs to come up in another year to two). 

 

[alsancle]

33 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Any chance I have a period picture back in the first 250 pages of the car possibly being a Hollywood film rental vehicle ? 

 

Any picture of it in its current configuration prior to WWII would be pretty important.  We'll see what the auction description says, but I'm pretty sure there is no early history. 

 

I think a dark top and blackwalls might mitigate the white.  Painting that car is a 50k proposition, at minimum.

[John_Mereness]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Any picture of it in its current configuration prior to WWII would be pretty important.  We'll see what the auction description says, but I'm pretty sure there is no early history. 

 

I think a dark top and blackwalls might mitigate the white.  Painting that car is a 50k proposition, at minimum.

My painter does very nice for around 20K (I cannot afford his 100 point though), but either way it is one of the reasons I do not jump on things like this matched to my upholster being 20K plus, the chrome plate the same, the engine rebuild guy, and ....  And, then as a result I end up doing a ton of it myself too.  Ed has made the comment that I am lucky to have the skills/support and know he is right as so many people are dependent 100% on others, but still ....  

[John_Mereness]

Will be curious to see how this one does - I doubt you can find another handful of Town Cars or closed cars this well done.

 

 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo20/shift-monterey/lots/r0105-1928-rolls-royce-phantom-i-etoile-town-car-by-hibbard-and-darrin/952095

1928 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Etoile Town Car by Hibbard and Darrin

$175,000 - $250,000

RM | Online Only - SHIFT/MONTEREY 14 - 15 AUGUST 2020 - Auction Closes on 14 August 2020

Chassis No.

Engine No.

Body No.

S275FP

22757

HD2015

 

• One of only 35 Springfield-built Phantom Is with Hibbard & Darrin coachwork
• Exceptional restoration completed by Randy Hatcher, Steve Littin, and Brian Joseph
• Classic Car Club of America (CCCA) Full Classic

[John_Mereness]

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo20/shift-monterey/lots/r0105-1928-rolls-royce-phantom-i-etoile-town-car-by-hibbard-and-darrin/952095

 

$155K Not bad at all and an internet auction too !

Edited August 15, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo20/shift-monterey/lots/r0105-1928-rolls-royce-phantom-i-etoile-town-car-by-hibbard-and-darrin/952095

 

$155K Not bad at all and an internet auction too !

 

Agreed.  Actually strong.  But they gave away my dad's old Model J.  I'll post that somewhere else.

[John_Mereness]

6 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Agreed.  Actually strong.  But they gave away my dad's old Model J.  I'll post that somewhere else.

Agreed - yes, actually strong.  

 

As to the J: it is exceptionally well restored (and holding up well - excepting some minor paint flaws) and supercharging is fine, though still a lot of "green" paint/interior and I know I take a lot of flack for my opinion on "green" - which I tend to like too, but ...  - Yes, "gave away" (a few other cars are/will be "reasonable" too and also some went well and some did ok, but fell just shy of the reserve) - overall, I would say a very successful auction as a whole. 

[Peter Zobian]

i don't see this as a strong showing at all! This car should have brought $200K at least.

 

Peter

[Peter Zobian]

I want to sell a very scarce driving light that is left-over from my store, Vintage Automobilia, in Cambria, CA.

It is a Stephen Grebel (Paris France) and it is in very good complete condition. Please PM me for more info.

It's not cheap, but then, nothing is!

[alsancle]

6 minutes ago, Peter Zobian said:

i don't see this as a strong showing at all! This car should have brought $200K at least.

 

Peter

 

Peter,  the Springfield Rolls prices the last 12 months have been abysmal.  In that context,   it actually did pretty well.  

[Peter Zobian]

I agree that the Springfirld Rolls prices have been abysmal. But that car was handsome!

 

I have put a photo of my Stephen Grebel Driving Light on.

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Peter Zobian (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

22 hours ago, Peter Zobian said:

i don't see this as a strong showing at all! This car should have brought $200K at least.

 

Peter

Those 200K days may be gone (at least they have been mostly gone for anything other than the more exotic open cars) - my initial thoughts were anything over 100K was great and anything over 125K was really great (and I did not give much weight to internet auction overall as internet auctions have been doing pretty well - but combo of a RR PI and an internet auction was a concern as RR PI cars have been doing dismally overall).   I will be curious to see how they do in the future. 

 

Here is the stinger for the seller (they paid 335K for the car in March 2018 - as mentioned, it is probably one of the better restored closed cars/town cars that exists and other than apparently now needing some detailing under hood probably still is one of the better restored RR PI's) - https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am18/amelia-island/lots/r0001-1928-rolls-royce-phantom-i-étoile-town-car-by-hibbard-darrin/545668

 

 A HUGE difference in the photo quality between two auctions as well. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Peter Zobian]

The problem with Phantom 1 Rolls, as I see it, is that they are under-powered, slow, antiquarian, heavy, hard to drive and expensive to fix or maintain; but the Brewster bodies are

beautiful so the car is caught in the middle. My 1930 Brewster bodied Convertible Coupe was bid only to $100K (after I put $10K into it) and went back to Gull Wing Motorcars who

immediately sold it on for $140,000 with the auction photos I paid for!

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Peter Zobian said:

The problem with Phantom 1 Rolls, as I see it, is that they are under-powered, slow, antiquarian, heavy, hard to drive and expensive to fix or maintain; but the Brewster bodies are

beautiful so the car is caught in the middle. My 1930 Brewster bodied Convertible Coupe was bid only to $100K (after I put $10K into it) and went back to Gull Wing Motorcars who

immediately sold it on for $140,000 with the auction photos I paid for!

that must have been a kick in the pants Peter.   The construction quality is through the roof as these were the most expensive American built car you could buy in the late 20s.   But, I don’t have much driving experience so I can comment on the road manners.

[edinmass]

A good Springfield Phantom One is a fine car, and have no bad habits. There are bad cars out there.....about 98 percent of the Springfield cars are not serviced, sorted, or set up correctly. Overall the collection I service has a bunch of great stuff, and my favorite is a Springfield P1 .............underpowered.....no, slow......no, heavy....yes....like a Cadillac, Packard, or Pierce.....which all drive well, hard to drive.....not when we’ll sorted, expensive to fix......no, they are ridiculously expensive to fix......to the point of it being asinine. Also, there are only a select few people capable of properly fixing them......I can count them all on my two hands. Why any particular car does or doesn’t do well at an auction can be difficult to predict. Color, condition, other cars actively for sale, location and time of the auction....all add up to a market that can be difficult to determine and predict price. There is no better car in the world than a Springfield Phantom.....and I have driven, Serviced, and restored just about everything under the sun. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

19 hours ago, edinmass said:

A good Springfield Phantom One is a fine car, and have no bad habits. There are bad cars out there.....about 98 percent of the Springfield cars are not serviced, sorted, or set up correctly. Overall the collection I service has a bunch of great stuff, and my favorite is a Springfield P1 .............underpowered.....no, slow......no, heavy....yes....like a Cadillac, Packard, or Pierce.....which all drive well, hard to drive.....not when we’ll sorted, expensive to fix......no, they are ridiculously expensive to fix......to the point of it being asinine. Also, there are only a select few people capable of properly fixing them......I can count them all on my two hands. Why any particular car does or doesn’t do well at an auction can be difficult to predict. Color, condition, other cars actively for sale, location and time of the auction....all add up to a market that can be difficult to determine and predict price. There is no better car in the world than a Springfield Phantom.....and I have driven, Serviced, and restored just about everything under the sun. 

I agree with ED, an RRPI is one of the few late 20's and early 30's car that you can run down dependably the road with literally zero modifications to one.  

 

I would not say underpowered - but, I would say they are undergeared (though still fine for their purpose). And, as to expensive - an aluminum cylindar head car will eat a chunk of change, but once through that it is no different than any other CCCA car, but if you are paying someone by the hour I would double to triple the bill just for the mere fact that they are made with a lot of extra hardware compared to other cars (ie they are complex).  

 

I would say the steering in mine was perhaps the nicest driven pre-power steering car I have ever experienced.

 

And once Ed clued me in that the car had a clutch brake (which is an anomaly few have), I was able to shift it just the same if not better than any syncromesh car. 

 

Peter, the only problem with your car was probably its color - a kind of harsh grey (as I preach: Green's, White, Tan/Brown/Orange combo's,  and ... plus the rule of thumb use to be that Grey Cars did not win Concours events (but Pebble Beach has had two now in recent years - though those cars perhaps would have won no matter what their color).   The flip side of the coin is that I will still also preach that whatever color it came in new is probably just fine for it today - especially the really famous/well known stuff. 

[Peter Zobian]

I would call the color of my car "soft" grey, certainly not "harsh" grey!

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, Peter Zobian said:

I would call the color of my car "soft" grey, certainly not "harsh" grey!

Sorry, not what I meant - it is too light a grey (aka sort of harsh as it gets too close to a white-ish - in person though I know it was a little more grey-ish, but most people buy off of photos nevertheless) - basically, not a rich enough grey.  If I made one change in this photo it would have been a top boot in Black canvas (or perhaps a grey or darker tan too, but with the blackwalls I think black would have be stunning).  I probably would have pulled the lower 1/3 of the grill shell and plated the faux louvers on it - 

 

One particular advantage your car had was spectacular woodwork in it (and really pretty styled interior as a whole) !!!

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Actually, the Town Car's first recorded price was without commission (so it actually did even better than we all thought).

1928 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Etoile Town Car by Hibbard and Darrin

Sold For $170,500

Inclusive of applicable buyer's fee.

RM | Online Only - SHIFT/MONTEREY 14 - 15 AUGUST 2020

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

When I mentioned above to the grill shell - a late model "tall" Grill Shell is a pretty impressive thing on a RR PI

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, John_Mereness said:

When I mentioned above to the grill shell - a late model "tall" Grill Shell is a pretty impressive thing on a RR PI

 

Goes something like this?

 

26/27 no pan.

28/29  pan.

30/31  tall grill.

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Goes something like this?

 

26/27 no pan.

28/29  pan.

30/31  tall grill.

Peter's car I believe when he bought it had the lower part of the shell painted.  

He made a 500% improvement just removing the ancient spare tire covers. 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

World Wide is selling a very similar car in black at the Labor Day auction.

 

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/auburn/1927-rolls-royce-springfield-phantom-i-brewster-regent-convertible-coupe

 

This 1927 Rolls-Royce Springfield Phantom I Brewster Regent Convertible Coupe, chassis number S284RM, received the current Regent Body No. B7153 in 1935 when the then owner sent it back to coachbuilder Brewster for the updating. It was quite common in those days for the owners to upgrade their cars by getting the latest body styles. The fenders, splash aprons, and exterior lighting were all updated to reflect the latest and ultimate Phantom One styling. S284RM also received an upgraded aluminum cylinder head engine at the same time.

In recent years, the Phantom has been exceptionally well-cared for and exercised regularly, participating in many tours from Asheville, North Carolina, Charlottesville, Virginia and New Hope, Pennsylvania, to name a few. The car has always performed well and has been maintained not only to look good cosmetically but also to be reliable on the road. It is structurally sound throughout, and the doors close with authority. Recent restoration and freshening work includes a brand-new head fitted with all new attachments, at an expense of over $50,000, securing that the most vulnerable part of the engine is now ready for the next 80 years. Additional recent service include having the sump dropped and the main bearing checked for tolerance, sump and oil journal cleaned and new caps installed, carburetor cleaned, restored and adjusted, new clutch, new NOS muffler and new wiring throughout including turn signals. Additional recent work includes Gear Vendors overdrive and full flow oil filter installed, radiator ultrasonically cleaned, slipper flywheel adjusted, gas tank professionally cleaned and coated, front springs cleaned, greased, new shackle pins, and Hotronics battery disconnect. Cosmetic enhancements performed at the same time consisted of the wheels being powder coated, new tires and tubes, Buffalo wheel nuts cleaned and re-plated, lock rings re-plated, running board refinished and new door caps, dash trim, door panels, and kick panels including new wire screens.

The Regent Body Style is perfect for touring, as having roll-up windows are much appreciated in inclement weather. However, it also offers open touring when the top is down for those beautiful fair-weather days and can comfortably seat four occupants when the dickey/rumble seat is employed. With its numerous recent mechanical enhancements, this handsome example of classic Rolls-Royce style and elegance would make a stellar addition to any stable and is ready for many miles of enjoyment for its next owner and it is the ideal choice for touring and club events.

 

 

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

My only thought is that I would have put the top up a two weeks earlier (or put the garden hose on "mist" for a a minute or two and then parked it in the sun) - takes a while to get the wrinkles out of the canvas.  

And I think it could have a more appropriate tire choice.  

And I am personally not a fan of the tan and black interior (and appears to have a rubber mat on the floor over ?), but nothing wrong with it either - a plus. 

[John_Mereness]

Also, look how nice a good fitting top boot is and adds to car.

 

 

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Also, look how nice a good fitting top boot is and adds to car.

 

Hard to judge paint without being there but the black would make this a much easier sale than the gray. 

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Hard to judge paint without being there but the black would make this a much easier sale than the gray. 

Well, I thought about Peter's car as I knew he had a good car and that he straightened it around mechanically, but with the Auburn being done (and other projects too) I did not feel I could invest the time needed in the RR to do the cosmetic things it needed to raise substantially in value (literally dad and I discussed it for maybe 2 1/2 hours one evening of what do we do to get this grey car straightened around so it will not be so difficult to sell. 

[K8096]

Hey John, what happened to the mid 20s RR towncar that was in French Lick and owned the local VFW or something like that.   They used to bring it out for car events at the hotel & park it out front.  I think it was brown and had drum headlights.   Nice original car.   I rode in it close to 25 years ago.   Is it still there?    

Edited August 19, 2020 by K8096 (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 8/19/2020 at 3:59 PM, K8096 said:

Hey John, what happened to the mid 20s RR towncar that was in French Lick and owned the local VFW or something like that.   They used to bring it out for car events at the hotel & park it out front.  I think it was brown and had drum headlights.   Nice original car.   I rode in it close to 25 years ago.   Is it still there?    

Pretty sure it ended up restored and I think it was sold at an auction some time back - maybe 10 plus years ago ???

[John_Mereness]

This one should be interesting to watch.  I would not have called it a good sale price when sold perhaps 10-12 years ago, but it was pretty "driver" quality then and certainly needed a pick-me-up.  Well, it has the PICK-ME-UP now and is quite stunning !  No explanation of why the hood is louvered now and a few faults (I do not see the balancing weights on wheel rims/side-mount retainers are reproduction/looked to be short some leather trim below window sills(but has work done in the video)/no luggage trunk(but stunning one in the video) - PRETTY IMPRESSIVE AND SO FEW EVER GET RESTORED TO HIS QUALITY

 

https://www.classicpromenade.com/car/rolls_royce_phantom_i_ascot_phaeton_gatsby_redford/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Peter Zobian]

Well, you certainly can't say this is a "soft" yellow!

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, Peter Zobian said:

Well, you certainly can't say this is a "soft" yellow!

I had an enlarged photo from Ted Leonnard that hung in my office for years - it was very yellow, but I think the film used of the time toned it down a bit (needless to say, you would not loose it in a parking lot any way about it then or now).   I tend to not mind yellow cars, but interestingly have not tested the water in selling any (they tend to be REALLY LARGE convertibles owned by near larger than life people and they have been hanging onto them). 

[John_Mereness]

Nouvaeu rishe Americans in their Yellow Rolls Royce'

[alsancle]

Do we know when the body was put on that chassis?

[edinmass]

On 8/26/2020 at 12:40 PM, John_Mereness said:

This one should be interesting to watch.  I would not have called it a good sale price when sold perhaps 10-12 years ago, but it was pretty "driver" quality then and certainly needed a pick-me-up.  Well, it has the PICK-ME-UP now and is quite stunning !  No explanation of why the hood is louvered now and a few faults (I do not see the balancing weights on wheel rims/side-mount retainers are reproduction/looked to be short some leather trim below window sills(but has work done in the video)/no luggage trunk(but stunning one in the video) - PRETTY IMPRESSIVE AND SO FEW EVER GET RESTORED TO HIS QUALITY

 

https://www.classicpromenade.com/car/rolls_royce_phantom_i_ascot_phaeton_gatsby_redford/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interetingly, I own the original owners Manuel from this car......it spent a lot of time in Connecticut in the 40’s and 50’s. I also have a receipt for an accident repair for 250 dollars from the late 40’s at Inskip. 

[John_Mereness]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

Do we know when the body was put on that chassis?

According to the text it shows up on chassis around 1945- ish:

 

"Chassis S304KP was originally a Town Brougham delivered to Mildred Loring Logan of New York City, and was later owned by American Tobacco Company president, George Washington Hill. There is no documented history in the Rolls-Royce factory “Schoellkopf Cards” from 1929 through 1964. The research determines that the Ascot body was originally mounted onto chassis S240RM and that the body was moved onto chassis S304KP sometime during or after 1945. The history of the Rolls is well researched and documented, and copies of the related factory and historical information accompany the motorcar. Mr. Leonard acquired the car just in time for the starring role as The Gatsby Rolls. The Leonard’s maintained ownership of S304KP for the next 36 years."

 

As to the Schoellkopf cards: I would call them not worth the paper they are printed on.  - perhaps they are good for cars on the East Coast in larger cities where he may have personally inspected the car, but for cars that made it away from the East Coast they are not that great/ very inaccurate (found this 3 of 5 times now I have requested).  To be more clear, he basically wrote people and asked them questions they were not savvy as to the cars other than they owned one (in a period of time people probably did not care much about serial numbers) and then "looks like he guessed" in interpreting their answers.  

 

(Also claims an over 1MM restoration, but any way about it I am not sure that is were as an owner contemplating restoration that I would have parking my money via speculation.  I would say any RRPI is incredibly expensive to restore though and few ever get any sort of truly comprehensive restoration as a result, but ... (note: this is an endless discussion). 

Edited August 28, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I knew Ted quite well and worked for him at the time of the movie. In fact, I was also in the movie with my 27 Cadillac.

The original yellow paint, as used in the movie, was a quickie job done in the body shop at Ted's Volvo dealership. The saddle colored upholstery was dyed green with Connoly's leather paint. It was very much a slap dash job but Ted never cared a whit about what anyone else thought and was completely indifferent to how cars performed as long as they went down the road. Looks, flamboyant looks, were all he cared about. He once bought a huge amount of cheap gold velour and had three or four cars upholstered in it...we called it "bordello yellow."

 

I don't know how anyone could call that louvered hood a "restoration"... it certainly never was to begin with. I'm very skeptical about the advertised restoration cost as well...no matter how complicated they can be to work on. In any case, after Ted died Mrs. Leonard sold his cars. I was approached to get them running again but passed on the job as I had no place I could bring them to work on.

 

 

[edinmass]

I think the “body swap date” was picked as 1945 for a reason......IE still in the Classic era......I know what the repair bill says........and I shall NOT comment......and that should tell you a lot.

[JV Puleo]

I know who Ted bought the car from and when. I'm skeptical of that date as well.

[John_Mereness]

On 8/19/2020 at 9:57 AM, alsancle said:

World Wide is selling a very similar car in black at the Labor Day auction.

 

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/auburn/1927-rolls-royce-springfield-phantom-i-brewster-regent-convertible-coupe

 

This 1927 Rolls-Royce Springfield Phantom I Brewster Regent Convertible Coupe, chassis number S284RM, received the current Regent Body No. B7153 in 1935 when the then owner sent it back to coachbuilder Brewster for the updating. It was quite common in those days for the owners to upgrade their cars by getting the latest body styles. The fenders, splash aprons, and exterior lighting were all updated to reflect the latest and ultimate Phantom One styling. S284RM also received an upgraded aluminum cylinder head engine at the same time.

 

Bidding stalled at 210K (which is pretty decent # compared to other recent sales) to be a no sale - we will see via their reporting if it sells behind the scenes.