American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[Walt G]

Just seeing this now - wasn't it John Inskip, not Joseph?  does anyone else agree?

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

It's not redline, but the torque drops off at 1800 and the max horsepower is at 2300. 

 

The car is stunning......but needs to have the red piping removed from the top. On this particular car, I would have used painted hubs and rims and run stainless spokes......a more elegant look, but not authentic for a P1.

 

Agreed on the piping.   What is redline,  3k?

[edinmass]

The power curve falls off fast, if memory serves me, it’s 3100.

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, edinmass said:

The power curve falls off fast, if memory serves me, it’s 3100.

Sounds about right:  RR PI is a whole lot of torque but short an extra gear it needs in transmission and realistically they should not be run over 50 mph (maybe a little faster if you know what you have and willing to fix it if you have a problem).   I drove a friend's 1925 English PI and it has a 4 speed instead of the US version three speed and seemed to be more 55 mph capable. Sidenote:  it will get you to 50 pretty quick though.   Basically, it was meant to go from stoplight to stoplight in town and if you took it on a long trip it was meant to give you dependability verses speed.

[John_Mereness]

On 12/7/2019 at 9:24 AM, alsancle said:

The Rolls market stinks.    This car sold for 329K all in at Bonhams Pebble.  

 

What do you think the restoration costs were?   And is 2300 RPM really red line?

 

7,672cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder Engine
Single Dual-Throat Carburetor
108bhp at 2,300rpm
3-Speed Manual Transmission
4-Wheel Leaf Spring Suspension
4-Wheel Drum Brakes

*Exquisite Hibbard et Darrin Transformal Phaeton coachwork
*One of only 35 Rolls-Royce chassis bodied by the exclusive Parisian Carrosserie
*Beautifully restored and maintained in stunning condition
*Suitable for concours and touring events worldwide
 

 

 

I would have expected more +/- 50K on the 500K mark.  And, a maroon edge on the top would have been a better contrast choice than the red - I want to say though the top edge matched the interior. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Lots of Sprinfield cars coming to market lately.   Here is a Brewster Marlborough towncar on a P1 chassis.  Only one built with a landaulet back.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/az20/arizona/lots/r0098-1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-marlborough-town-car-landaulet-by-brewster/839186

 

The Marlborough Town Car was an unusually elegant example of Brewster’s coachwork on the Springfield-built Rolls-Royce Phantom I chassis. Its crisp, dashing lines included front doors that rakishly flowed into the cowl, a predecessor of what would become known as the “Croydon cowl” on certain Phantom IIs, and a relatively low roofline with blind rear quarters. Only 10 examples of the design were built, of which this car, chassis no. S449MR, is believed to have been the only one delivered with a folding landaulet top over the rear compartment.

The build order for the car notes that it was specified in Black and Carmine Lake, as it is finished today. Interestingly, the same document records under Custom Features “paint all lamps, radiator, windshield, mirrorscope, top irons, at my convenience.” It is believed that these items were delivered, as finished today, in gold plate—creating a truly spectacular counterpoint to the dark hues of the Marlborough body. The sum of $21,750 was paid by original owner, John Barry Ryan, son of the great New York industrialist and art collector Thomas Fortune Ryan and himself a successful financier.

A continuous chain of further owners from the early 1950s until the mid-1970s is recorded by the Rolls-Royce Foundation. Flamboyant coal magnate Claude Canada reportedly purchased the car for his collection in 1975. Later it passed to Robert Pond, in whose famed California stable it remained for many years. It has made several memorable “cameo appearances” over the last four decades, including carrying Gloria Swanson in a 1974 television special, Paramount Presents, and center stage in a dance number to “Puttin’ On the Ritz” during the 1984 Miss USA pageant.

Bearing a well-preserved older restoration and well-known, fascinating history, this very special Rolls-Royce is still every bit the dramatic showstopper that it was back in 1931!

[John_Mereness]

15 hours ago, alsancle said:

Lots of Sprinfield cars coming to market lately.   Here is a Brewster Marlborough towncar on a P1 chassis.  Only one built with a landaulet back.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/az20/arizona/lots/r0098-1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-marlborough-town-car-landaulet-by-brewster/839186

 

Spectacular car - needs Trillin tail-lamps, vacuum tank plated,  exhaust wrapped under hood, coils painted, and little stuff - INTERIOR WOODWORK IS FANTASTIC.

[alsancle]

We had a discussion about the Marlborough P1 that sold for nothing in Arizona last week in another thread.  So we should probably keep the prewar Rolls talk here.     This PII Newport is selling at RM Amelia.

 

Attention Ed!!!!   Please tell us why we would prefer the P1 over the PII for driving.  I know you think that but we need to know why!

 

Any thoughts on how this will do?  

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am20/amelia-island/lots/r0066-1933-rolls-royce-phantom-ii-newport-town-car-by-brewster/846328

[AnnK]

On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

 

[AnnK]

On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

 

[AnnK]

On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

My father worked for Ned Herrmann at the Vintage Auto and helped restore the 1929 Rolls Royce Phantom 1 York Roadster. 

[edinmass]

The York your father restored back in 1966 was well done, and for the era nothing better was coming out of any shop in the US. We just did a total frame off restoration on it last year........it didn’t really need it, but we wanted to put it back to the factory colors. Recently it was on the cover of the CCCA magazine. It won most elegant open car at Pebble Beach in August........quite a compliment! And, being born and raised in Springfield........it’s my “home town car” and my favorite car in the collection. I usually don’t post photos, but thought you would like to see his work, then and now. There is nothing better than a Springfield Phantom 1, nothing.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

13 hours ago, AnnK said:

My father worked for Ned Herrmann at the Vintage Auto and helped restore the 1929 Rolls Royce Phantom 1 York Roadster. 

The Jedi Master is great - "Glenn Grismere" and he is still around though in declining health with both Parkinsons and ALS catching up to him (he called Monday late afternoon).  Rod Stryker (Ned's painter) still paints for me.  And Ned Jr. is still around too - they live in Florida I believe.   Glenn was very right in saying I was 'doing it wrong" and to figure out its magic formula and I would be rewarded. 

 

I will give  Ed "EDINMASS" credit too - after continually struggling with shifting the car he brought up issue of my RR PI possibly having a "clutch Brake" on it and that turns out to be exactly what it had (apparently something very few RR PI cars have)  - a whole counter-intuitive mentality of shifting that no one in their wildest dreams thought about (the clutch pedal becomes more of an on-off switch for the clutch with nothing in between the extremes matched to critical shift timing - and NO DOUBLE CLUTCHING NEEDED AT ALL - and, that is when the truly "magic" driving started). 

Edited January 24, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

AJ here is my drive report for a November 1932 built Springfield RR PI "L" Series:

 

 Update: 01/24/2020 - When I say "I" it tends to be a large scale group effort on this car.

 

It took me a while to figure out I had to count to about 30 after starting it before I shifted.  Then, it took me a while to figure out the clutch was either on or off - no in between.  Then, I had to figure out I could not double clutch it and had to shift straight through - which was counter-intuitive for a non sycromesh car of the era (aka as car had a clutch brake on it).   Then, once I figured that out I found I had it running fabulous, but I had to richen it up substantially as there was not enough gas at any speed over idle and especially at speed.   And, I had a ton of problems to work through for a car that probably had 5 miles put on it in 40 years.  

 

The joys were a car that had never seen a speck of rust, a car people had been into for all the right reasons and had kept their hands off it otherwise, low mileage, and you only had to turn the steering wheel 1/2 turn for a full right and 1/2 turn for a full left - I had people in England refere to it as half-point steering and they said few cars had it - dreamy over 10mph, but under ten I did not have the strength.    Also, incredibly comfortable seats and seating position, albeit you had to be somewhat a monkey to get in and out - suicide front doors only helped a little, but did help.   Also, very nice it had glove boxes and also a toolbox under front seat, but thank god it had a luggage trunk as again a  huge car with no place to put anything. 

 

As to faults:  A complicated car by even today's standards (must have been mind blowing complicated when new) and massive, plus via that close coupled coachwork you could really see nothing out of the back of it (lots of glitzy mirrors though that allowed seeing nothing).  Also, short top end speed - needed another gear in the gearbox, but IMPRESSIVE torque and could get you up to speed quick.  

 

Would I recommend one ?  Yes I would, though it is a car that owns you verses you owning it and you have to be patient, know how to write a check, and be handy (even if someone is working on it for you). 

 

Impressive stature on it - most people do not realize the size of the engine - just as with a Dusenberg it is chest height and really long, with a ton of aluminum and little polished trinkets. As to engineering - I would say complicated in a different way than a Duesenberg and as a result actually a more sophisticated product. 

 

Update:  Brakes - the car has 20" wheels and brakes drums must have almost 18" +/-  - servo assist off transmission and they pulsate in a primitive version of ABS,  teh Brake drums are steel and finned - I loved that they were turned and you could see the turning marks.  And they are spectacular, though I assume do have fade upon extreme usage.   And, whoever say 20's and 30's cars do not stop have never been in a RR - THEY STOP !!!

 

Further Update: Electrical = Westinghouse (I believe) and more so on the commercial than automotive side - pretty impressive and the wiring I believe is Westinghouse too - also commercial side. 

 

Further-Further Update: Also, no die cast other than the windshield wiper - everything is brass, bronze, steel, aluminum, German silver, or ...

 

Further-Further-Further Update: The vacuum system is good too for fuel delivery - there is a tank on the firewall that holds perhaps 1.5 gallons and the tank is 22 gallons I believe.  There is a dual pick-up mechanism (many people think two tanks with one being a reserve, but it is a high and a low pick up - allowing you clean gas without contaminates from bottom of tank (unless you have a gas emergency).   Perhaps the only advantage would have been the ability to prime the vacuum tank - obviously, a 7.6 Litre engine creates enough vacuum to pull from tank when system is dry, but ...

 

Also:  When people say production ended in 1931 and remaining cars were built from parts - Yes, I would agree as mostly correct, though this particular car has 11/1932 casting dates on most key parts, as well as original numbering on every part (ie. largely a "new construction" car). This car being built for their Steel supplier, I would guess this was a mercy purchase to keep them in business. 

 

I am going to stick with 35-36 Auburns for the moment.  Ed, had me thinking about a 1931 Pierce Arrow Series 42 Berline Club Sedan though.  A couple people keep preaching a Cord L-29 Brougham for me and a couple more a 1932 Franklin Club Sedan.  JCNA friends say I need a XK150 Drophead.  And, ...

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

This really is great looking !!!

 

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

AJ here is my drive report for a November 1932 built Springfield RR PI "L" Series:

 

Thanks John!   Now if Ed will get off facebook and give us the compare and contrast with the PII we will be in business.

 

Your car as a late one with the vacuum clutch was probably a much different experience than the earlier cars.   A couple of months ago I was lucky enough to be driving in a high end prewar car with the curator of a big collection (Not Eddy) who was double clutching through ever gear, even the synchro ones.   I asked him why he was doing that, because it was only necessary on first and reverse.   He said force of habit and he always does it.   He was so good at it that if you weren't watching his feet you would never know what was going on.

[John_Mereness]

8 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Thanks John!   Now if Ed will get off facebook and give us the compare and contrast with the PII we will be in business.

 

Your car as a late one with the vacuum clutch was probably a much different experience than the earlier cars.   A couple of months ago I was lucky enough to be driving in a high end prewar car with the curator of a big collection (Not Eddy) who was double clutching through ever gear, even the synchro ones.   I asked him why he was doing that, because it was only necessary on first and reverse.   He said force of habit and he always does it.   He was so good at it that if you weren't watching his feet you would never know what was going on.

Not a vacuum clutch - Clutch brake was Mechanically driven via the transmission (just like the servo brake booster was Mechanically driven).  Car is a wild mess of mechanics, linkages and ... and when front floorboards are out most people just looked in, shook their head, and walked away saying they never have seen anything like this in their life and thank god it was my problem and not theirs. The best comment was "steampunk at its finest." 

Edited January 24, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Lots of car shows right now in town.......will comment on P1 & P2 soon. It’s gonna be a long post.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

P2 at Mar A Lago for brunch this morning.

 

One of my all time favorite Sedans.   Is there 3 or 4?

[edinmass]

They built three........this one is different from the other two........

no divider window, bucket seats, skirted fenders........and 28,300 sale price........
 

 

1933. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

1933. 

 

I didn't ask the year,  I asked how many were built.   Unless they built a lot.   My recollection was 3, but maybe 4?

[58L-Y8]

The absolute crème de la crème of Rolls-Royce sport sedans.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

The absolute crème de la crème of Rolls-Royce sport sedans.

I agree......It’s ok if you like world class cars. 🤔

[Keith Ward]

215AMS did sell, to me. It's currently stripped down having the frame and aluminium restored, although last year I covered 866 miles in it without any problems

[alsancle]

A number of interesting Springfield cars selling at Amelia.   This is a Murphy phaeton which typically would bring a lot more money than a "factory" body,  but I believe the Ascott is better looking.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25719/lot/139/

 

1929 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Sports Phaeton
Coachwork by Walter M Murphy Co. Pasadena
Chassis no. S 287 FP
Engine no. 22877

7,672cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder Engine
Single Dual-Throat Carburetor
108bhp at 2,300rpm
3-Speed Manual Transmission
4-Wheel Leaf Spring Suspension
4-Wheel Drum Brakes

*One of 16 Murphy bodied Phantom I's
*Matching Numbers example
*A timeless classic
*Highly desirable Sport Phaeton coachwork

THE MOTORCAR OFFERED

In this period American coachbuilding and design was well on its way to the zenith of the 1930s Classic era and there were alternatives for Rolls' clientele. Styles and design preferences naturally varied depending on where a buyer was located, owing to climate and fashion of different parts of the country. Not surprisingly a small number of West Coast based Rolls buyers turned to the esteemed local coachbuilder Walter M. Murphy Co. of Pasedena, to body their cars.

The company founded by Walter Murphy, a nephew of one of Henry Ford's original backers, was originally the Californian dealership for the mighty Simplex automobile, later adding Lincoln and Duesenberg to its list of agencies. Its debut in the coachbuilding business was almost accidental, for when Henry Leland introduced the first Lincoln models, the staid styling of the factory bodywork was just too conservative for fashionable West Coast purchasers. The Murphy Company transformed these ugly ducklings into custom-built swans by lowering the lines of the tops and repainting the cars in bright colors. Realizing the potential in the custom coachwork business, Murphy took over the equipment and many of the staff members of the illustrious New Jersey-based Healey company, and moved the whole lot west to create its own bodybuilding shop.

The Murphy Company's hallmarks were 'dash and innovation.' And its bodies reflected the sunny nature of its Pasadena home, with ample glass and an emphasis on convertible coachwork. The company was an integral part of the Duesenberg Model J scene right from the start, with a Murphy-bodied chassis one of the exhibits at that epoch-making New York Salon in December 1928. But they didn't solely body Duesenbergs, Murphy custom coachwork also graced on Hudson chassis as well as Bentley, Bugatti, Packard and a select number of Rolls-Royce.

In all, the factory records denote just 16 Phantom I cars to have received Murphy bodies, of which only two were Sport Phaetons, a body style which was much championed on the Duesenberg chassis, and as evidenced here was supremely elegant.

The Rolls-Royce Owner's Club archives retain the original order for this car and this lists 287 FP as having been sold new by W.C. Darling to Albert Wallerstein of Gaylord Apartments, 3335 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles. Mr. Wallerstein was one of only 16 Rolls-Royce owners to order coachwork by Walter M. Murphy of Pasadena and the body style he chose was a popular design of the day, the Sport Phaeton. It was a body style more often than not seen on Duesenbergs or Lincolns, and comparison with records suggest that this may be the only one ever fitted to Rolls-Royce. The car was delivered new on September 4, 1929.

It must not have been to Wallerstein's taste, because only a few months had passed before it changed hands and became the property of Howard W. McCargar. Based in Riverside, California, McCargar kept the car until October 1954. The car passed to another Riverside resident, K.G. Stalder in 1956 and in January 1959 made its first journey from the West Coast when sold to Marvin W. Bridges of Omaha, NE. It remained with him until November 1984 when it was sold to Jack L. Keown.

Jack Keown advertised his car in The Flying Lady in 1988, after which it vanishes from RROC records. The car resurfaced in 2002, when it was sold at Christie's in Paris, as part of the Hans Luscher Collection. A virtually unknown group of cars, hidden in from the public eye in Europe until its sale, the car had shared garage space with a Murphy bodied Mercedes-Benz 630K and is thought to have been there since its offering in the US in the late 1980s. At this point the car returned across the Atlantic to Canada, where it has remained.

On inspection today, the car ties in perfectly to its original order, with matched chassis to engine and its original coachwork also. It is equipped with correct period accessories of twin side mounts, spring-loaded chrome bumpers, C.M. Hall headlamps, and wears secondary cowl mounted rear screen. It has clearly been repainted, re-upholstered and its brightwork re-chromed, but this must have been sometime ago and this shows a general aging through use.

With all the hallmark signs of Murphy design from simplistic continued belt line from radiator to tail and steeply raked single piece windshield this is a really classic and extremely elegant Rolls-Royce.

Largely unseen in Rolls-Royce club circles for 3 decades, outside of its more recent display at the St. Michaels Concours, this as one of the rarest of its breed will no doubt be welcomed back at any other event around the country.

 

[alsancle]

RM has a particularly attractive Avon for sale.  Maybe John can explain what the long chassis vs short chassis thing is they are talking about in the description?

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am20/amelia-island/lots/r0010-1927-rolls-royce-phantom-i-avon-sedan-by-brewster/828179

 

1927 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Avon Sedan by Brewster

$100,000 - $140,000

Offered Without Reserve

RM | Sotheby's - AMELIA ISLAND 6 - 7 MARCH 2020 - The Todd and Peggy Nagler Collection - Offered on Saturday

---

Chassis No.

Engine No.

Body No.

S69PM

20696

B7126

 

• Offered from the Todd and Peggy Nagler Collection
• Part of the collection and perennial tour participant since 1963
• Extensive recent restoration work by marque specialist Steve Littin
• Accompanied by comprehensive history and maintenance file
• Classic Car Club of America (CCCA) Full Classic

This Rolls-Royce Phantom I, chassis no. S69PM, was originally used as a demonstrator by the dealership in Philadelphia, after which it was delivered on 7 January 1928 to Mrs. Adele Spalding bearing a Mayfair town-car body. It was subsequently remounted in-period with the present body, a handsome and sporting Avon sedan by Brewster, originally on chassis no. S362LR. Featuring a fabric-covered roofline with blind rear quarters, as well as a relatively low roofline, the Avon is widely considered among the most attractive sedan bodies mounted on the Phantom I.

The car was acquired by Charles Nagler from O. Edward Kurt of Detroit, Michigan, in 1963, with photos showing that it remained in solid and intact condition when purchased. It was subsequently restored, with the engine rebuilt by Connie Bouchard and a Frank Cooke stainless-steel exhaust system fitted; cosmetic work, in Sheridan Blue with a complementary cloth interior, was handled by other specialists in the Detroit area. It would be occasionally exhibited in Classic Car Club of America and Rolls-Royce Owners’ Club judging over the next two decades and was also regularly enjoyed.

Todd Nagler eventually inherited his father’s car and, through his own investigations, revealed that the body was misaligned to the chassis due to the Avon coachwork having been intended for the longer 146.5-inch-wheelbase frame. Accordingly, the car was brought to noted specialist Steve Littin’s Vintage & Auto Rebuilds of Chardon, Ohio, in late 2016. The correct proportions were achieved by repositioning the body and fitting factory long-wheelbase springs, driveshaft, and associated components. At the same time, various improvements were undertaken that included replacing some of the wood in the roof and freshening the paint where needed.

Few extant Phantom Is have enjoyed such exhaustive attention by one family for over 55 years; this example looks as good as it drives and is ready for countless new touring experiences.

 

 

[John_Mereness]

21 hours ago, alsancle said:

RM has a particularly attractive Avon for sale.  Maybe John can explain what the long chassis vs short chassis thing is they are talking about in the description?

having been intended for the longer 146.5-inch-wheelbase frame.

 

 

I was not aware there was a long and a short frame (must be only an inch or so), though I will tell you that periodically a car comes up for sale and you look at it sort of oddly as the wheel placement is a bit off in relation to the fender openings - which I always attributed to a second body, change from 28ish fenders to 30ish fenders, or ....  Keep in mind that these car were updated just like Duesenbergs (if not perhaps more so than Duesenbergs).   My car was on the 146.5 - took up a lot of garage floor space. 

 

As to an Avon -  while sort of a base model car (a real expensive base model car) I believe they are the most attractive of all the closed cars. 

[alsancle]

It was free Rolls day at Amelia yesterday.

 

1. Avon hammered at 67,500

 

2. the PII Newport hammered at 95,500

 

3. the pall mall at 175.

[alsancle]

A nice Newmarket on the field at Amelia.

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Someone did really well the Avon.  Think about CCCA,  or other comps in that price range, oh my...

[Matt Harwood]

Sounds like the Avon was a kind of "bitsa," no? That would certainly explain the price, although I, too, find it handsome. I'm not really a fan of the PI, but I'll also admit that my Rolls-Royce experience is not vast. I have always found Ghosts frustrating but PIIs are sublime. The good news is that if the Avon passed through Steve Litton's shop, then it's ready to tour and will be fantastic on the road.

[Peter Zobian]

I have noticed that Phantom 1 Rolls-Royces do not seem to do well at auction. Why is that? They are beautiful, and well made (if any thing, they are overbuilt). Perhaps they are not very driveable.

[Walt G]

I owned and drove a PI Springfield Trouville town car for a decade+ ( S74 PM) . Started out life as a limousine and had a body swap and fender and lamp update by Brewster & Co. in 1933. I loved the car - but I do love town cars and the Hibbard & Darrin styling was the best. I bought it from Lew Smith of Garden City , NY who was a great friend and an excellent mechanic who along with some help from our friend Joe Star rebuilt that PI entirely mechanically. I found the car very responsive, fairly easy to drive ( despite you couldn't see anything aft of your ear drums ) but the reason I sold it was two fold : it would have eventually needed some serious structural body wood replacement in the rear doors, and I was just to tall to be comfortable drive it. For a decade I was in denial that "I fit" behind he wheel. No way to adjust the drivers seat further back due to the division window. Last I heard the car was in England and my monogram was still on the rear doors.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Walt G
typo (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

16 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Sounds like the Avon was a kind of "bitsa," no? That would certainly explain the price, although I, too, find it handsome. I'm not really a fan of the PI, but I'll also admit that my Rolls-Royce experience is not vast. I have always found Ghosts frustrating but PIIs are sublime. The good news is that if the Avon passed through Steve Litton's shop, then it's ready to tour and will be fantastic on the road.

Not really a bitsa - there are quite a few cars rebodied from new (some several times as new cars and many more pre-war via Inskips) that when you look at them the wheels are not properly situated in the fender openings - I would say no harm no foul.    

[John_Mereness]

13 hours ago, Peter Zobian said:

I have noticed that Phantom 1 Rolls-Royces do not seem to do well at auction. Why is that? They are beautiful, and well made (if any thing, they are overbuilt). Perhaps they are not very driveable.

Incredibly nice driving cars - but  complicated cars and parts are pretty pricey too.

 

My car was designed for someone over 6 foot - any shorter and you would have had a bear of a time driving it. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

7 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Not really a bitsa - there are quite a few cars rebodied from new (some several times as new cars and many more pre-war via Inskips) that when you look at them the wheels are not properly situated in the fender openings - I would say no harm no foul.    

 

I understand a rebody and that it's more common (and more easily overlooked) in the RR/Bentley world, but if they had to rearrange springs and axles to make it sit right, that strikes me as a potential turnoff for buyers, which would explain the price. Maybe not quite an assembled car, but a car that isn't "correct" enough for most high-end collectors. I continue to think that's complete foolishness that excludes great cars, but it seems to drive the hobby at the highest levels. Either it's perfect with an unblemished record of ownership, maintenance, replacement parts, and restoration, or it's not. The middle ground seems to be shrinking rapidly, which, I suppose is good news for people of more modest means. Let the wealthy guys haggle over perfection; the rest of us just want to enjoy neat cars.

[60FlatTop]

Imagine, cars like that hidden away for decades.

 

Three hinges on this one.

 

As long as the scanner is running, I know it's newer, but this is the day I fell in love with a Flying Spur.

Edited March 10, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Imagine, cars like that hidden away for decades.

 

Three hinges on this one.

 

As long as the scanner is running, I know it's newer, but this is the day I fell in love with a Flying Spur.

interesting white Rolls-Royce Phantom with the Pirate touring body from a Franklin.  When were these photos taken?  Or is it a Silver Ghost?

Edited March 11, 2020 by 58L-Y8
Phantom or Silver Ghost (see edit history)

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Imagine, cars like that hidden away for decades.

 

That is Silver Ghost modified in period by Dutch Darrin.   If you would pass along the owner I would love to have that before I blow all my money on a Stearns Knight.

 

[60FlatTop]

It is good to share some of these old pictures. My wife has been feeding me family album pictures to scan so I have been sticking boxes of car things under my desk . These pictures are from, maybe 1992. I had to laugh, ole' Dutch was referred to as "somebody" that day and his work was not fully appreciated, as I have heard from others who got under the skin.

I will find out the updates this week.

The Silver Ghost was parked next to a nice little Bentley coupe. It sneaks into the coupe pictures.

Edited March 10, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)