Riviera63 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Hi, I am contemplating adding the 4 note horn set up to my 1963. I know that the horns are located differently than the 64-65's (picture attached) and that the long horn is a different length as well. I have been told and seen it mentioned on the forum that the holes to mount them are predrilled on the 64-65 hood. My 63 does not have mounting holes predrilled. The service manual shows the horn location and does have a diagram showing some measurements for placing the holes. However, the bottom hole for the driver's side horn does not have any measurements or indication of where it should be placed. Its location is important to the placement of the other 2 holes as it is the pivot point for an arc that pinpoints where they are placed. I know many of the add-on accessories for my Pontiacs came with templates for locating cut out areas or placement of holes to be drilled. Was there such a thing for this accessory? Is there anyone out there that has done this to their 63? How critical is the exact placement of the horn's mounting holes? Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dales90 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 My 64 has this setup. I'd be happy to give you any info that may help you make sure your hood closes without issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 You have come to the right place!!! The drawings that you posted are correct only for the early-'63 Riviera. Later they were moved to both be on the driver's side. What month was your car built and do you have factory A/C in the car? This makes a difference. The horn numbers are what is important on the '63. Do you have the horns or are you still looking for them? ================================================== Horn identification: Small horn Large horn length pitch stamp* length pitch stamp* 1963 14" Bb 948 24" C 949 1964 12" C 898 22" D 897 1965 N/A B 930** 22" D 897 * There are identifying numbers stamped into the flange of the trumpet base. These numbers correspond with the last 3 digits of the GM part number (group 2.810, part number 1999xxx). ** The 1965 small horn was superceded with the same small horn that was used in 1964. Source: Chip Little ================================================= I have them on my '63 and I can assure you they are LOUD. They really get attention when you use them. You also need proper mounting screws and the wiring harness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 The build date to which Jim makes reference will also determine the size of the "dent" in the vacuum canister. There also a service bulletin that was published showing how to route the positive battery cable so that the bell on the large horn would not interfere (possibly short) with the positive cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I would also point out that (in my experience) the listed notes for those horns aren't even close to accurate. That is, don't use them to tune your piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Hi Bill, this is the set up on my '63, November 62 build. Factory installed option on plate. Hope it helps Rodney If you need a better photo, please let me know, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 Thanks everyone for the information and offers of help. I am still shopping around for a set of correct horns, wiring harness, brackets and screws. I was aware of the correct horn numbers. My car was a May, 63 build and I do have air. Does anyone have suggestions as to how to locate where to drill the mounting holes in the hood and what size holes to drill? Was this covered in a service bulletin when the horns were relocated to the new location? If so, could someone please share this? I have Jim's Service Bulletin CD but, for some reason I cannot get it to load on my new computer. Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 16 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said: Hi Bill, this is the set up on my '63, November 62 build. Factory installed option on plate. Hope it helps Rodney If you need a better photo, please let me know, Rodney, Factory installed option on the plate? Can you please elaborate? Thanks, Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Riviera63 said: Thanks everyone for the information and offers of help. I am still shopping around for a set of correct horns, wiring harness, brackets and screws. I was aware of the correct horn numbers. My car was a May, 63 build and I do have air. Does anyone have suggestions as to how to locate where to drill the mounting holes in the hood and what size holes to drill? Was this covered in a service bulletin when the horns were relocated to the new location? If so, could someone please share this? I have Jim's Service Bulletin CD but, for some reason I cannot get it to load on my new computer. Thanks. Bill Bill, The diameter of the holes is in the drawing you posted. Just need to do the conversion from decimal to fraction, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 36 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said: Bill, The diameter of the holes is in the drawing you posted. Just need to do the conversion from decimal to fraction, Tom Hi Tom, I understand that part. Those drawings are for the earlier horn placement. Does the hole size stay the same for the later horn placement? I need 3 questions answered for the later 1963 horn placement: 1.) How many holes need to be drilled? (I assume 3 since the 64-65 horns used 3) 2. What is the diameter of all holes that need to be drilled. If the number of mounting holes is 3, are the hole sizes .375 for the bottom hole and .185 for the top 2 holes as is shown in my drawing? 3.) Where/how to determine the correct location for the holes to be drilled? Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said: Rodney, Factory installed option on the plate? Can you please elaborate? Thanks, Tom Mooney Yes, please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Hi guys, sorry have confused the sales code O7 with the plate option codes. The original sales order and invoice show 4 note horns, so thinking they were factory installed, however they could also have been dealer installed. Hope this clarifies things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) Nothing forward of the firewall is coded on the Fisher Data Plate*. The only way I know that my '63 had factory installed horns is that they're on the window sticker. No reference to them on the data plate. Ed *My '63 came from the factory with cruise control, tilt wheel, Guidematic, Twilight sentinel, four note horns, and cornering lights. None of which is coded on the data plate.If the option was not installed at the Fisher Body plant but rather it was installed during final assembly, then it will not be stamped into the data plate. Different assemblies in different plants, Engines, chassis, and body. All were married together at final assembly along with the installation of the front clip, steeting column, radio,, heater, etc. Edited March 22, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Hope these help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 On 3/21/2017 at 7:27 AM, Riviera63 said: Thanks everyone for the information and offers of help. I am still shopping around for a set of correct horns, wiring harness, brackets and screws. I was aware of the correct horn numbers. My car was a May, 63 build and I do have air. Does anyone have suggestions as to how to locate where to drill the mounting holes in the hood and what size holes to drill? Was this covered in a service bulletin when the horns were relocated to the new location? If so, could someone please share this? I have Jim's Service Bulletin CD but, for some reason I cannot get it to load on my new computer. Thanks. Bill Bill- If the CD is damaged, I will replace it. You can use the measurements for the '64 Horn installation to place the horn brackets on your '63. The horns are different but the installation is the same. I think you will have to find a copy of the '64 Shop Manual to get those measurements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said: Bill- If the CD is damaged, I will replace it. You can use the measurements for the '64 Horn installation to place the horn brackets on your '63. The horns are different but the installation is the same. I think you will have to find a copy of the '64 Shop Manual to get those measurements. Jim, Thanks for the offer. It turns out the CD's were fine. I took my computer in. The problem actually was the disc drive on my computer, which is not defective either. What they found is the CD's I got from you are actually a little thicker than most CD's and adding the label gives it another little bit of thickness. The disc drive on my computer is is an ultra thin one and that little extra bit of thickness would not allow the disc to seat properly in the drive. Any other CD's played fine in my drive and your CD's played fine in any other disc drive they had.The solution was to load the CD's on a thumb drive and all is right with the world. Since the 64's came with the horn mounting holes already drilled will the 64 manual give measurements to locate the holes to be drilled? I have no problem buying a 64 manual but, I don't want to do that if the info I need is not there. If someone has a 64 manual and could let me know if that info is in the manual I would appreciate it. Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Hi Bill, two brackets per horn, one front, one rear, four in total. One brace goes across the void in the hood but the two horns are seperate, not bracketed together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Bill, Check your email Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 11 hours ago, Riviera63 said: Since the 64's came with the horn mounting holes already drilled will the 64 manual give measurements to locate the holes to be drilled? I have no problem buying a 64 manual but, I don't want to do that if the info I need is not there. If someone has a 64 manual and could let me know if that info is in the manual I would appreciate it. Thanks. Bill Bill, I apologize but I can’t help with the dimensions you are looking for right this minute. However, from the ’64 and ’65 manuals I have access to, neither give the dimensions for the holes. I am posting these to show the manuals. If you can’t get the dimensions elsewhere, not sure if Tom has sent them, I’ll see if I can get some from the hood of one of my ‘65s later today. Hope this helps some anyway, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Rodney and Randall, Thanks for the pictures and the diagrams. This all helps. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Bill, A bit behind my time estimate, but, I did get some measurements from the ’65 hood I have. The 3 holes on the driver’s side on this hood are pretty much where your ‘63 service manual shows them. I did the measurements for the 2 holes on the sides of the opening using a straight edge along the bottom of the openings, then went from there. (These are PICS 1 to 3) For the lower hole I measured from the outer edge of the hood, as you can see with it .5” from the edge of the opening it falls right at 12” from the outermost edge of the hood itself. (These are PICS 4 and 5) For the lower 2 holes, I laid tape measures on the hood. The measurement for PIC 7 the tape is inside the brace, just kind of wedged in there up against the side brace, and for PIC 8 it is outside the brace. Both of these holes are right at .25” from the edge of the brace they are drilled into. (These are PICS 6 TO 8 … HOWEVER, in PIC 6 I say go to 5 & 6 and it should actually say 7 & 8) Sorry about the confusion, I added the numbers then added a couple pictures and didn’t correct it. Also, all of the holes in this hood are .185”. If you need more measurements, if what I’m posting is not clear, let me know and I’ll see what I can do. Hope this helps, 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 Randall, Wow! That was help above and beyond the call of duty. I really do appreciate that. That should be a huge help when I do drill holes to install horns. I have to find a set of horns first and then I will probably wait until the weather gets into the 60's or 70's before doing the install. I will let you know if I need any additional help but, your pictures seem to be pretty thorough. Thanks again. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Rivman, I'm impressed at your reply, 10/10. I was just about to take the bonnet off my 63 and flip it upside down on the driveway too. But I was worried I would scratch the pavers, so glad you beat me too it !!!! cheers Rodney (now if you could answer my question about the seat adjuster Spring that way, I would be very happy)???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 13 hours ago, Riviera63 said: Randall, Wow! That was help above and beyond the call of duty. I really do appreciate that. That should be a huge help when I do drill holes to install horns. I have to find a set of horns first and then I will probably wait until the weather gets into the 60's or 70's before doing the install. I will let you know if I need any additional help but, your pictures seem to be pretty thorough. Thanks again. Bill Bill, You're welcome. I thought I mentioned it above but just realized I did not, the 3 holes that match the holes in the '63 diagram are all .5" from the edge of the flanges (PICS 1 thru 5). If I were you I think I would get the complete assembly (the brackets), mark the holes from the measurements above, and be sure they match up before drilling them. I'm sure that is your plan, just thought I would mention it. PS: It was 77 and sunny here yesterday, sorry, I just thought I would mention that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 7 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said: Rivman, I'm impressed at your reply, 10/10. I was just about to take the bonnet off my 63 and flip it upside down on the driveway too. But I was worried I would scratch the pavers, so glad you beat me too it !!!! cheers Rodney (now if you could answer my question about the seat adjuster Spring that way, I would be very happy)???? Thanks Rodney, I'm glad I beat you to it too! This is a junk hood I have laying around waiting for disposal, so no removal was required for me. Sorry but I don't have access to any '63 seat mounts. I can take a look at the '65 I have here that has the seats in it, is the '65 the same or different from what you are looking for? I don't know if it would give you the information you are looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dship Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Randall, I'm impressed just by the fact that you still have what looks like a brand new K Mart wood yard stick!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Rivman said: Bill, You're welcome. I thought I mentioned it above but just realized I did not, the 3 holes that match the holes in the '63 diagram are all .5" from the edge of the flanges (PICS 1 thru 5). If I were you I think I would get the complete assembly (the brackets), mark the holes from the measurements above, and be sure they match up before drilling them. I'm sure that is your plan, just thought I would mention it. PS: It was 77 and sunny here yesterday, sorry, I just thought I would mention that too. Randall, Thanks for the extra info. I'm glad you talked about matching before drilling. In the excitement of doing a project I sometimes I get ahead of myself and forget to do/check things I should. That is an important step and it will help me remember to do that. Bill P.S. Just when I was starting to think you were a nice guy you throw in that dig about the weather. We may break 50 today. I probably won't be able to get the car out for another month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface. Tom T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, telriv said: Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface. Tom T. Tom, Thanks for that. I will add it to the list. It would be easy to do with possibly disastrous results. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 3/28/2017 at 4:08 PM, telriv said: Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface. Tom T. Tom does mention a GREAT point here! I was drilling an inside bracket on my '95, for a stupid reason by the way, and when it went through the bracket the bit grabbed the hole and I dented the trunk lid! Probably best to use a drill stop, and even put a piece of scrap sheet metal between the brace and the hood surface to keep the bit from denting it. Great suggestionTom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivman Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 3/28/2017 at 8:36 AM, DShip said: Randall, I'm impressed just by the fact that you still have what looks like a brand new K Mart wood yard stick!! Actually not brand new Ship, that one is missing about the last 3 inches, it just doesn't show in the picture. I do have another one that IS 36" though, with me having almost 20 years with them, and Gwyn was there 28 years, we certainly have a few souvenirs from there around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Hi All, I have started the installation of my 4 note horn set. I have both of the horns mounted to the hood and the hood appears to shut with no interference or problems. I have a question about the wiring. The wiring I received with the set appears to be correct but, incomplete. From what I can gather there should be a black ground wire that that attaches to a tab at the base of large horn, goes to the screw that holds the L-shaped bracket for the smaller horn to the hood and then is attached to the firewall with a screw. Can anyone confirm for me if this is correct and if it is not, what is the correct grounding route and/or procedure? Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Grounding takes place through bolting the horns to the body. One 12V source is all the wiring that is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Jim Cannon knows the correct wiring as I gave him the info directly from my car yrs. ago. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 29 minutes ago, telriv said: Jim Cannon knows the correct wiring as I gave him the info directly from my car yrs. ago. Tom T. I will check with Jim to be sure. I am thinking that a grounding wire is correct. When you mount the horns to the hood it is paint on paint and the attaching holes on the brackets are larger than the self-tapping screws, so the chance of contact is slim. I hooked the wire up to the horns. No sound from the added horns at all when the horn bar pressed. Would get noise from the original horns once in awhile. With the wiring harness off and back to original the stock horns work perfectly every time. I have attached copies of what is shown in the 1963 Service Manual. It shows a grounding wire to each horn. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasander Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 On my what I believe to be original 63 a ground wire goes from rear horn bolt to fire wall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Chasander said: On my what I believe to be original 63 a ground wire goes from rear horn bolt to fire wall. Chuck, Thanks for that. That is what is shown in the Service Manual. Does that ground wire connect to each of the horns as well? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasander Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Quote just the one spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera63 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Chasander said: Chuck, Where does the end of the wire that is not attached to the firewall go? Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 29 minutes ago, Riviera63 said: Chuck, Where does the end of the wire that is not attached to the firewall go? Thanks. Bill It goes under the rear-most horn mounting screw that mounts the trumpet to the underside of the hood. The shop manual was written and printed BEFORE the Buick engineers decided that they needed to add a muffler to the A/C system on the '63 Riviera. So it shows the horns separated under the hood, one over by the A/C compressor and one by the brake booster. Not too long into production the muffler was added. That forced them to move the small trumpet over to the driver's side (and add a dimple to the big black vacuum storage reservoir on the inner fender). That is the way most cars should be. Only the very early Rivs (with FB number 4000 and lower) should have no A/C muffler, no dimple in the can, and the small trumpet on the passenger side, if so equipped. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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