Leaky Block, need some advice

[Beemon]

My 322 was rebuilt by a gentlemen whom claimed to have done Nailheads before. As the story goes, my engine was the last engine to pass through his shop. Fast forward a bit here, when I got the block back from him, he handed me the rest of the gaskets to put on the water pump, oil filter housing, fuel pump, distributor, carburetor and valve covers. The kit came with both a rope seal and a neoprene one, neither of which were given to me...

 

My engine has developed a leak at the back of the engine. Originally, when I put the valve covers on, I didn't install them properly and it would leak oil. I've replaced them, but it's evident there is still oil coming from the top of the block. I've already replaced the oil pressure line above the oil filter housing using permatex thread sealer. It looks like it's leaking from the distributor O-ring, as well. The fuel pump also leaks oil at the gasket. Last but not least, there is a lot of oil puddling where the rear main cap is.

 

I was naive at the time and anxious. I've never done an engine before and I regret not taking the time to learn. I need some advice on what works and what doesn't work. I've read articles on line, but nothing has solved the fuel pump gasket leak.

 

• How do I seal up the distributor O-ring?
• What type of compound should be used on the fuel pump gasket? Both sides? On the threads?
• What is the best way to seal up the valve cover gaskets? Cork or rubber? Technique?
• What is the best way to seal up the oil pan gasket? Cork or rubber?
• Do I need to remove the engine to get to the rear main? Can I use a sneaky pete? Will trimming the rear rope seal be difficult? The rear main is the last resort, but is probably the huge culprit....

 

You guys are the experts and I am but the young grasshopper. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[old-tank]

Lots of leaks.  Is the crankcase being pressurized?  Miles on engine?

seal up the distributor O-ring? ...never had a leak there even when the o-ring was not replaced. 

fuel pump gasket? ...glue the gasket to the pump with weatherstrip cement and use none or you choice of gasket any sealer on the other side (I use an anaerobic sealer).  No sealer on the fuel pump flare fittings.  Teflon tape only on the oil pressure fitting that goes in the block, but most of the time brass pipe fitting into cast or steel needs no sealant.

same technique on the valve cover, valley cover and oil pan.  Cork and rubber both perform well

See my website for rear main seal tips.

[buick5563]

I like cork a little better for all of the stamped metal (tins). Rubber, however can be reused at least once.

It's actually amazing you don't have a water crossover leak. Those suckers are hard to seal.

Is the rear main pouring out, or just a few drips? 

I haven't ever had a distributor leak either. 

Fuel pump-try another 1/8 -1/4 turn on the bolts first.

[JohnD1956]

have you retightened the oil filter?  Also did the gasket kit have the stamped steel gasket for the oil filter housing?  Regardless, tighten those bolts too before going for the rear main seal.

[Beemon]

2 hours ago, old-tank said:

Lots of leaks.  Is the crankcase being pressurized?  Miles on engine?

seal up the distributor O-ring? ...never had a leak there even when the o-ring was not replaced. 

fuel pump gasket? ...glue the gasket to the pump with weatherstrip cement and use none or you choice of gasket any sealer on the other side (I use an anaerobic sealer).  No sealer on the fuel pump flare fittings.  Teflon tape only on the oil pressure fitting that goes in the block, but most of the time brass pipe fitting into cast or steel needs no sealant.

same technique on the valve cover, valley cover and oil pan.  Cork and rubber both perform well

See my website for rear main seal tips.

Engine has about 5000 miles on rebuild. How do I know if it's being pressurized? There are vapors that exit the fill caps and breather tube.

I didn't think the o-ring should leak, either, but there's oil around the base of the distributor. Will try submerging in motor oil before assembly.

Valley cover is not known to be leaking at this time (no oil around the back of the valley cover, just around the base of the distributor).

Will check the website for the rear main if the leak doesn't go away after cleaning up the top of the engine.

 

1 hour ago, buick5563 said:

I like cork a little better for all of the stamped metal (tins). Rubber, however can be reused at least once.

It's actually amazing you don't have a water crossover leak. Those suckers are hard to seal.

Is the rear main pouring out, or just a few drips? 

I haven't ever had a distributor leak either. 

Fuel pump-try another 1/8 -1/4 turn on the bolts first.

You cannot re-use the cork?

Will try re-torquing the fuel pump and see if it seals up. When I put it on, I tried the 'glue to pump with weatherstrip cement and then black rtv to block" technique but it's still leaking at the back, I think around the rear bolt.

Rear main is only dripping when parked. I never see it drip but when I crawl under there it's loaded up on oil.

Crossover was assembled by the machinist. I just put the water outlet on and that was the end of the cooling system.

 

1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

have you retightened the oil filter?  Also did the gasket kit have the stamped steel gasket for the oil filter housing?  Regardless, tighten those bolts too before going for the rear main seal.

The gasket that came with the kit had the type of gasket where it's paper/felt bonded to a steel gasket. Both the filter and housing are torqued to spec. I don't think the filter housing is leaking at the block, I guess I'll find out now that the oil pressure line should sealed and no longer weeping all over it.

 

Thank you all for the quick replies!

[Beemon]

Willie,

 

I've been reading your website since you asked me about the crankcase being pressurized. Is it a safe assumption to say that vapors should not be coming out of the filler caps and that I may have an issue with the valley cover?

[buick5563]

Rear main seals CAN leak a bit. A coin sized leak (pick your coin) is ok. A dollar bill size is less than ideal. A basketball size leak should definitely be addressed. 

I bet your fuel pump is just a little loose, OR the fuel pump diaphragm is leaking.

Yes, you can reuse the cork, it just smooshes more flat and doesn't seal leaks as well as a fresh cork gasket.

[old-tank]

22 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Willie,

 

I've been reading your website since you asked me about the crankcase being pressurized. Is it a safe assumption to say that vapors should not be coming out of the filler caps and that I may have an issue with the valley cover?

Vapors at idle are ok; a blast of vapor (with the cap removed) when revved may mean broken or worn rings, hole in piston, rings installed upside down...

[Beemon]

What could cause the engine to be over pressurized and push oil out of the seams?

[old-tank]

broken or worn rings, hole in piston, rings installed upside down...

[Beemon]

Sorry for the confusion

[NTX5467]

I understand that "ring gaps, all lined up in a row", rather than staggered, can also allow combustion gases to get into the crankcase. More so than normal.  Similar, but to a lesser extent, if the ring end gaps are a little too much.

 

If the oil rings are installed upside down, then they'll probably not remove as much oil from the cylinder walls, which might also lead to higher oil consumption and/or fouled spark plugs.

 

When re-torqueing cork gaskets, be sure to NOT use so much "twist  that you "bend the tin" at the bolt hole.

 

Personally, I coat ALL gaskets (paper, rubberized cork, cork) with a thin layer of hi-temp black silicone sealer.  Makes removal easier, sealing better, and stops the wicking of oil THROUGH the gasket (with time and dependent upon brand of motor oil).  NO 3M "yellow"!!!  Everybody has their preference.

 

On bolts which don't go into sealed holes, probably the brown PermaTex sealer.  #2?

 

Perhaps the Texas Road Warriors can make a pit stop in your locale?  Or Skype?

 

Keep us posted on your findings and progress, please!

 

NTX5467

[EmTee]

A cylinder leak-down test can also be performed to determine if there's a problem with pistons or rings leaking compression into the crankcase.

[Beemon]

I retorqued the fuel pump and wiped down all surfaces with oil where it shouldn't be. I installed the oil pressure line and ran the car for a bit, no oil leaks thus far. I'm picking up the gaskets as I go,  tomorrow is distributer o-ring, fuel pump gasket and valve cover gaskets.

 

Oil pressure on the gauge seems to be fine. I'm a little concerned now about piston rings... I don't have a compression tester, so that will have to wait a couple weeks, but I haven't had an issue with performance and the vacuum readings have been normal. 

[NTX5467]

If the intake manifold vacuum is good and reasonably steady, that means the compression ring is doing its job.  Personally, I have not had really good luck with a compression test.  It can be a good reference, BUT you can disconnect/short plug wires to do a "cylinder balance test" and not have to do very much work.  Look for the amount of rpm drop as each cylinder is shorted (OR, with a thick rubber fender protector) or a plug wire is removed (from the cap or spark plug).  The weak cylinders will not have much rpm drop, as I recall.

 

All a compression test will indicate is the condition of the compression ring, not the condition of the other rings per se.  Good compression can still exist with oil ring(s) that aren't working too well.  Yet it's that test which is referenced in the service literature.  The readings will vary with altitude, plus if the carb throttle is WOT, yet you can do the testing with the throttle closed (and usually get lower readings), looking for readings that are past the fringe of the stated variation between cylinders.

 

Sometimes, it seems we can get all balled-up in specs rather than how the specs all work together in a dynamic manner.  If an automatic choke comes off cleaner and quicker at "2 notches Lean", rather than the "Index" setting, then put it at 2 notches lean rather than the factory spec of "Index".  If the idle's smoother at 630 rpm rather than 600 rpm, no big deal.  If the engine runs best a few degrees "advanced" on the base timing, doesn't clatter, or whatever . . . rather at "spec", so be it.  Key thing is to use the factory specs as a starting point and basic goal, but it you have to move something a little so that your engine starts easily, runs smooooothly  and responsively, do it.  End result is that the extra tweaking/finessing of the mechanicals can yield a better motoring experience and greater vehicular satisfaction (and admiration).

 

Remember than an "oil seep" can be considered "anti-rust" in nature for where it seeps to.  Plus that spray brake cleaner is great for cleaning oil from objects.

 

Looks like you're making progress in the diagnostics!

 

NTX5467

[1953mack]

11 hours ago, Beemon said:

What could cause the engine to be over pressurized and push oil out of the seams?

 

11 hours ago, Beemon said:

Willie,

I've been reading your website since you asked me about the crankcase being pressurized. Is it a safe assumption to say that vapors should not be coming out of the filler caps and that I may have an issue with the valley cover?

 

Just another idea here. You might have a whistling tea kettle that has a hard time whistling.

 

If you study a typical crankcase ventilation route...Figure 2-12 in either the 1955 or 1956 Buick Shop Manual...you will note that the air is drawn in by the two rocker arm cover ventilating filtered/oil-filler caps on late-1955 and 1956 Buick nailhead engines (or the oil-filler tube in the front of the valve lifter cover on 1953 to early-1955 engines) and winds around the crankcase and through a metal gauze filled breather filter that is built into the rear portion/underside of the valve lifter cover before exiting out the rear road tube (ventilator pipe). There was a recent Thread on this Forum where the metal gauze material in the filler cap was addressed as either being plugged or was crumbling apart, but from my recollection, nothing was mentioned about this same material further downstream as possibly being plugged with old caked-on non-detergent oil. To access the material, you would have to cut open and re-weld the cover's underside as mentioned in this article:  http://skylarkclub.org/buick-articles/is-your-engine-breathing-properly   Note that Figure 2-14 in this link shows a typical early nailhead with the upper and lower baffles that were eliminated in your 1956 engine.

 

Can you say for certain that this was cleaned out, boiled out, or replaced by your rebuilder before reassembling the parts? 

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint" 

[avgwarhawk]

15 hours ago, Beemon said:

I retorqued the fuel pump and wiped down all surfaces with oil where it shouldn't be. I installed the oil pressure line and ran the car for a bit, no oil leaks thus far. I'm picking up the gaskets as I go,  tomorrow is distributer o-ring, fuel pump gasket and valve cover gaskets.

 

Oil pressure on the gauge seems to be fine. I'm a little concerned now about piston rings... I don't have a compression tester, so that will have to wait a couple weeks, but I haven't had an issue with performance and the vacuum readings have been normal. 

 

Fix each as you go.  Most times it is a simple snugging of the bolt.  

 

What concerns you about the piston rings?   Are you blowing blue out of the tailpipe?  Plugs covered in oil or crusty burnt oil?    

[leon bee]

On the rings, experts are beginning to agree that staggered compression rings and oversize ring end gaps on assembly mean very little. About all you can do wrong is rings upside down, (if applicable) and too small ring end gap.

[avgwarhawk]

32 minutes ago, leon bee said:

On the rings, experts are beginning to agree that staggered compression rings and oversize ring end gaps on assembly mean very little. About all you can do wrong is rings upside down, (if applicable) and too small ring end gap.

 

I replaced my rings a month ago.  It was recommended to keep the ring gaps 1-2 inches from the wrist pin.  I did so with the top ring to the right of the pin and the bottom ring to the left thus accomplishing keeping the gaps staggered and way from the wrist pin.  But I agree, the gap is very small.  However, not to leave it to chance the rings are installed as I described.  To be sure, the rings did have a top and bottom marked for correct installation.         

Edited September 16, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Forward motion of the car causes the crank case to vapors to exit through the 'bologna cut' on the draft tube.

At idle , while parked, some vapor might come through the oil filler cap(s).

 

On the fuel pump gasket, I've used just a thin film of clean engine oil on both sides. of the gasket. I've never had a leak there. (I'm on my third pump since 1975)

The only leak , I've got is a few drops from the rear main seal (rope there, neoprene on the valve covers and oil pan)

 

[Beemon]

My first fuel pump I rebuilt myself. The seal wasn't set right in the vacuum part because it started sucking oil into the intake. I've since remedied this issue (no more oil in the vacuum lines), but I'm still blowing blue smoke out the tail pipes when revving and taking off from a stop. It's very minuscule, but it's there. That's why I'm concerned about pistons, now that it's been brought up. I set the carburetor with a tach and the smoke isn't a dark black as if it were running rich. When I changed the spark plugs out after fixing the fuel pump, there was a lot of carbon build up in the cylinder walls. I haven't got in there yet to check the condition.

 

I cannot confirm the condition of the valley cover filter, so that may be an off season project. I went to a cruise in today to see if a leak pops up. All I did today was replace the distributor o-ring, while cleaning off other oil coated surfaces. So far no leaks from the oil pressure line or distributor o-ring. There isn't a leak from the valve covers, but it is wicking through. Is this normal? I did see the rebuilder at the cruise in, but he avoided me like the plague so I think there's more to the rebuild than I know.

 

I checked the oil after getting home and levels are normal, so maybe I snuffed it (wishful thinking). Only time will tell.

[NTX5467]

Quote

"ring gaps not important"?

 

Back in the middle 1980s, there was a mechanic (former hot rodder) who got deeply involved in the many differences and upgrades of the 5.7L GM diesel engines.  When he did his rebuilds, he used Total Seal brand piston rings  He said that with them, the oil did not color like a normal diesel, but more like a gas engine would.  With these rings, the rings have a flat ring that goes on top of the normal ring and ring end gap, effectively eliminating the gap.  If it'll stop diesel soot from getting to the motor oil, that can be a significant situation!  Be that as it may.

 

One reason that it's recommended that you have a fresh oil change before getting a emissions check is because what "blow-by" that does happen puts additional hydrocarbons into the motor oil/crankcase.  When that oil re-circulates and might end up in the combustion chamber (via the valve guides, topside, or rings, bottom side, will result in higher emission levels out the tail pipe . . . although the engine passed an earlier test with no problems.

 

Where it "doesn't matter" might be in the realm of horsepower production, or possible decreases from wider ring end gaps . . . and how their gaps are oriented on the piston itself.  On a street engine, not as critical as on a race eng9ne.

 

NTX5467

[EmTee]

It sounds like the engine is burning some oil; the question is: where is it getting in?  It could be rings or valve guides.  Blocked crankcase venting seems somewhat less likely, but possible.  The best way I know to remove all doubt would be to have a cylinder leak-down test performed.  The problem may be finding a real mechanic who knows how to do it and has the tools, since this procedure does not involve plugging the shop's computer into the car's OBDII port and replacing sensors...

[NTX5467]

Where I first heard about a leakdown test was when our service manager was doing the "major" jet boat racing activities in the 1980s.  It's kind of a neat deal, but requires an air compressor supply of a particular pressure range and possibly volume.  Some "home" compressors might not be able to do it, possibly?  BUT the neat thing is that it tests ALL things at once, quickly.  Pressurizes the combustion chamber as a compression check would, but without some of the variabilities of a compression check.  You'll have time to listen at the exhaust pipe for escaping air, same for reverse flow through the intake tract, the pcv plug-in/draft tube, AND seeing the gauge move in a particular time frame.  Just ensure that both intake and exhaust valves are closed at the same time for the particular cylinder being tested.  No real issues with the particular values obtained, just a percentage of how much is "getting by", as I recall, and how the cylinders relate to each other (as the compression check values would).

 

Could be the oil scraper ring components or intake valve guides/seals?  I know the oil smoke is unsightly and means things are not what they should be, but it also might need to be tolerated until some more in-depth activities can be orchestrated.

 

You mention that it (the oil smoke) happens upon acceleration, but what about after a coast-down period at closed throttle?  Then at idle afterwards and THEN acceleration?  After coast-down and idle might indicate more OIL rings than valve guide items, as I recall.  Unfortunately, the ultimate check would be cylinder head removal.  If the oil's coming up past the rings, there will be a "cleaner and washed" area around the edge of the piston crown.  Then you can disassemble the valve train and individually inspect the valve guides and valve stems.  It could well be that all that was done is to knurl the valve guides and possibly put some new valves in as necessary, along with a little valve seat "dressing" activity.

 

I know you've sunk much more time and expense into this project and tried to do it in the best manner possible, so it might be time to take a breather and enjoy driving the car until a better time to address some of these things might happen.

 

On the vacuum wiper cars (as this one is?), wasn't there something about the dual-action fuel pumps having some issues whereby engine crankcase "mist" might be put into the intake manifold tract?

 

NTX5467

[Ttotired]

Just a word of caution if you go putting compressed air down a spark plug hole, as said, it needs to be done with both valves closed, that is at TDC on the compression stroke.

As the piston is at TDC (or really close to it) when you turn the air on to pressurize the cylinder, you are (to a lesser degree) emulating what happens when the mixture is fired, so, there is a really good chance the engine is going to want to turn, problem is, you will have no idea which way.

You need a flywheel lock or a turning tool that holds the flywheel and can hold it in position, the crank bolt is not good as it can loosen.

Compression testing is done because its easier than the messing around doing leak down tests, but I also like leak down testing before I strip an engine I am not sure about

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

On 9/16/2016 at 11:21 PM, Beemon said:

My first fuel pump I rebuilt myself. The seal wasn't set right in the vacuum part because it started sucking oil into the intake. I've since remedied this issue (no more oil in the vacuum lines), but I'm still blowing blue smoke out the tail pipes when revving and taking off from a stop. It's very minuscule, but it's there. That's why I'm concerned about pistons, now that it's been brought up. I set the carburetor with a tach and the smoke isn't a dark black as if it were running rich. When I changed the spark plugs out after fixing the fuel pump, there was a lot of carbon build up in the cylinder walls. I haven't got in there yet to check the condition.

 

I cannot confirm the condition of the valley cover filter, so that may be an off season project. I went to a cruise in today to see if a leak pops up. All I did today was replace the distributor o-ring, while cleaning off other oil coated surfaces. So far no leaks from the oil pressure line or distributor o-ring. There isn't a leak from the valve covers, but it is wicking through. Is this normal? I did see the rebuilder at the cruise in, but he avoided me like the plague so I think there's more to the rebuild than I know.

 

I checked the oil after getting home and levels are normal, so maybe I snuffed it (wishful thinking). Only time will tell.

 

I ran into the fuel pump issue as well.  Oil was getting into the intake but the strange things is...the rubber hose from pump to steel line that runs up to the manifold had a kink in it.  As a result, not much was getting sucked into the intake.  I discovered the issue as the bottom half of the pump was loose and making a clapping sound like two clam shells.  I replaced with a rebuild.  That issue was corrected.   

 

As far as the minuscule oil smoke at the tailpipe. I would not loose sleep over it for a few reasons.   It is a weekend driver.   Second, the smoke appears only under heavy revs or taking off. 

 

This is when you start to worry:

 

 

 

 

The reason for this smoke could have been my heads.  Someone did install seats in the head.  The head failed.  When I pulled the heads I found all cylinders oil rich and carbon fouled. As a result we look to the rings causing this.    So, rings were replaced.  Heads rebuilt.  Bear in mind this engine was rebuilt in 2006.  I found numerous issues with the rebuild.      

 

   

 

 

I also went to Autolite 85 plugs and a 180 t-stat for hotter running.   These will help with carbon build up. 

 

Here she is after heads, cylinders honed and new rings installed.  All was done with the 264 still in the car.   As of now the smoke while running is gone.  I get the puff of smoke at start due to guides not having seals. According to the manual this is normal.      

 

 

 

So, when you get that point of smoking start to worry.   For now, plug the leaks(sounds like you have) and drive!  

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Certainly, most of the people I saw use the cylinder leak-down test were racers whose engines were mounted in jet boats or in race cars with minimal obstructions to getting to the spark plugs AND to manually turn the engine such that each cylinder, in succession, was at TDC.  The advantage was that altitude did not affect the readings, as it might affect a normal compression check. 

 

As time progressed from when a particular model year of vehicle was designed, the ready-availability or newer testing/diagnostic methods/equipment also advanced.  The larger shops and dealerships would have the more expensive things, as others were still using vacuum gauges and "sensory input" for best results.  In reality, it takes BOTH the readings of the testing equipment AND the sensory inputs to determine when an engine is "happiest" and best enjoys what it's doing.  It must also be understood that each engine can be a little different from the engine which came down the assembly line before or after it.  The "factory specs" work best when the engine is "green" new, but after some age and running time accrue, then the specific personality can ease on out a little.  Preferences of certain fuel brands and octane levels, for example, or brands of motor oil which are least-consumed.

 

So, as we are not "there" any more, a slight deviation from factory specs for "best" feel and performance might be necessary.

 

Provided that each of the lobes on the distributor point cam are exactly at the original height and spacing,  the spark plugs are all gapped precisely at the same gap, each plug wire has the same electrical resistance, and EACH cylinder receives the exact same amount of fuel/air "charge" . . . then when you hook up the engine to a diagnostic ignition scope, the spark plug traces with the higher spikes (voltage production) will have the higher cylinder pressure, as the lower ones will have lower cylinder pressure and not the need for the coil to produce quite so much voltage to fire the particular spark plug.  This can be done somewhat quicker and easier then taking things off of the engine in order to attach things to test the engine with.  Hook up the connectors/probes and start the engine.  This will reveal the relative values (kv) and it can be seen in real time,  Combine that wit a manifold vacuum test and a cylinder balance test and I suspect you can find out almost all of what's wrong/good in a reasonably short period of time and a minimum of "dirty hands".  But we all don't have a tester with the ignition scope any more, if ever.  Whatever works . . . for each person and the things they have access to.

 

NTX5467

Edited September 20, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

12 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

I ran into the fuel pump issue as well.  Oil was getting into the intake but the strange things is...the rubber hose from pump to steel line that runs up to the manifold had a kink in it.  As a result, not much was getting sucked into the intake.  I discovered the issue as the bottom half of the pump was loose and making a clapping sound like two clam shells.  I replaced with a rebuild.  That issue was corrected.   

 

As far as the minuscule oil smoke at the tailpipe. I would not loose sleep over it for a few reasons.   It is a weekend driver.   Second, the smoke appears only under heavy revs or taking off. 

 

This is when you start to worry:

 

The reason for this smoke could have been my heads.  Someone did install seats in the head.  The head failed.  When I pulled the heads I found all cylinders oil rich and carbon fouled. As a result we look to the rings causing this.    So, rings were replaced.  Heads rebuilt.  Bear in mind this engine was rebuilt in 2006.  I found numerous issues with the rebuild.      

 

I also went to Autolite 85 plugs and a 180 t-stat for hotter running.   These will help with carbon build up. 

 

Here she is after heads, cylinders honed and new rings installed.  All was done with the 264 still in the car.   As of now the smoke while running is gone.  I get the puff of smoke at start due to guides not having seals. According to the manual this is normal.      

 

So, when you get that point of smoking start to worry.   For now, plug the leaks(sounds like you have) and drive!

 

I guess I have nothing to worry about! Definitely not doing that, that's for sure!

 

I'm running the V-Power NGK 5858s and have had no complaints. I tried the Champions and the ACDelcos but they all fouled up. There was probably nothing wrong with them, just the oil fouling from the vacuum pump (though I hear the R43S ACDelcos are trash anyways). The shop manual said to use the 160 t-stat, so that's what I've had in there since day 1. I might go for the 180. The discussion over the HD clutch fan conversion has me pondering and being in the Pacific NW, I'm going to try it here in the next week or so.

 

For now, the car is a "drive it when I feel like it" type deal. It unfortunately sits in the rain now because I was pushed out of my grandfather's car port by 'underprivileged' tenants. I've been checking oil daily, the leak seems to have passed. I'm guessing it was the oil pressure line at the block. At idle, there wasn't any seeping that I could see, but I'm sure at higher RPMs that thing must have been spraying the block because there isn't any more residue. I'm still watching the rear main closely as I still can't tell if it's leaking or not, but the dip stick has been consistent. Vapors are confirmed to be coming from the road draft tube. Condition unknown, but it's doing it's job. Oil seems to be wicking through the valve cover gaskets. When I rub my fingers across the back, they're wet, but they aren't spilling oil out. Is this normal?

 

Thanks again everyone for the input. I've been on this forum contributing consistently for a year now and without you guys I would be no where! (well, maybe somewhere, but progression would be extremely slow lol).

[NTX5467]

Thanks for those updates!  In diagnosing (or POTENTIALLY diagnosing) some issues, we can tend to head toward the "default worst case scenario", which can increase anxiety of "What to do??"  As with many problem-solving activities, taking a few steps back and then starting to look at the possibly failed system to investigate where the problem might be, also checking for correct installation in the process.  Plus considering just how serious the issue might really be.  In many cases, a fastener that has become a little loose from normal hot/cold temperature cycles or a gasket/seal which has compressed and "set" (held by said loosened fastener), such that a little "re-touch" of the retainer's torque could be all that's needed, plus a little brake cleaner spray to clean things up.

 

With earlier vehicles, some things just normally "seep" due to their gasketing methods and materials.  "Seep" is not a "leak", per se, for these vehicles (seeps collect dust, leaks "hit the ground, eventually").  As I've mentioned, using some high-temp black silicone sealer to coat the rubberized cork valve cover gaskets can seal them from wicking oil through them.  The other side of wicking is that also means your motor oil is getting into all of the small spaces for better internal lubrication . . . some brands and viscosities being better at that than others, by observation.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[avgwarhawk]

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

I guess I have nothing to worry about! Definitely not doing that, that's for sure!

 

I'm running the V-Power NGK 5858s and have had no complaints. I tried the Champions and the ACDelcos but they all fouled up. There was probably nothing wrong with them, just the oil fouling from the vacuum pump (though I hear the R43S ACDelcos are trash anyways). The shop manual said to use the 160 t-stat, so that's what I've had in there since day 1. I might go for the 180. The discussion over the HD clutch fan conversion has me pondering and being in the Pacific NW, I'm going to try it here in the next week or so.

 

For now, the car is a "drive it when I feel like it" type deal. It unfortunately sits in the rain now because I was pushed out of my grandfather's car port by 'underprivileged' tenants. I've been checking oil daily, the leak seems to have passed. I'm guessing it was the oil pressure line at the block. At idle, there wasn't any seeping that I could see, but I'm sure at higher RPMs that thing must have been spraying the block because there isn't any more residue. I'm still watching the rear main closely as I still can't tell if it's leaking or not, but the dip stick has been consistent. Vapors are confirmed to be coming from the road draft tube. Condition unknown, but it's doing it's job. Oil seems to be wicking through the valve cover gaskets. When I rub my fingers across the back, they're wet, but they aren't spilling oil out. Is this normal?

 

Thanks again everyone for the input. I've been on this forum contributing consistently for a year now and without you guys I would be no where! (well, maybe somewhere, but progression would be extremely slow lol).

 

 

I went to the 180 t-stat for hotter running and better burning in the cylinders.   When I pulled the heads the carbon build up was horrendous.  Also, the 160 t-stat the car never really got warm in the winter(I do drive the vehicle in the winter).     Nothing like driving with a parka on.  So the decision to run a hotter t-stat resulted in better performance, steady reading of the heat gauge and heat in the cab.    

 

Concerning your valve cover gaskets.  Replace them!  Newer material resists soaking up of oil.  It is a very easy job.  Two nuts and it's ready to come off the head.  Scrap off the old gasket.  Small coating of RTV silicone to keep the gasket in place when installing.   One tip(thanks Father Buick), check to see if the side walls of the valve covers are straight.  If they are shaped like ( ) then put them in a vice and gently tighten the vice until the side walls of the valve cover are I I.  Over the years, the tightening of the the nuts pushed(bows out) the walls of the valve cover.  This will produce leaks.    

[Beemon]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

One tip(thanks Father Buick), check to see if the side walls of the valve covers are straight.  If they are shaped like ( ) then put them in a vice and gently tighten the vice until the side walls of the valve cover are I I.  Over the years, the tightening of the the nuts pushed(bows out) the walls of the valve cover.  This will produce leaks.    

 

I was actually really curious about this because mine are like ( ) and not | |. Maybe I should jump the gun and go buy aluminum covers?? Kidding. Thanks for the tip!

[avgwarhawk]

8 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

I was actually really curious about this because mine are like ( ) and not | |. Maybe I should jump the gun and go buy aluminum covers?? Kidding. Thanks for the tip!

 

That is up to you on the aluminum covers.  I put mine in a vice and closed until the walls were straight.  Below are the walls that need to be squeezed back to straight.  New gaskets and hand tighten back on the head.  Life is good. 

 

  

 

 

[Beemon]

In your pictures, the part of the cover that seals on the gasket looks trapezoidal. What I mean is the lip on the outside is tapered, they aren't straight compared to your walls. Is that normal?

[avgwarhawk]

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you post a picture of you cover?

[Beemon]

Sorry I'm getting back to this late,

 

That's the intake. I guess I didn't really notice how bowed it was until you said something, but I had perceived it to be normal since the other side is identical. I guess I should be doing valve covers soon? Despite their condition, the back of the block is dry.

 

Oil seems to be fine. It seeps slowly, like 1/8 of a quart a day. I've been driving it every day in the morning to campus and the oil leak has almost vanished. I think a huge portion of it was due to the oil pressure line because the issue seemed to almost go away after replacing it with a more expensive piece. There still seems to be oil behind the oil pan. I picked up the oil pan gasket, rope seal and sneaky pete. The top of the engine is dry off the backside, so the oil accumulating behind the oil pain is most likely from the rear main.

[avgwarhawk]

Yes, the covers are bowed.  Once off the head squeeze straight in a vice or similar.  If they are not leaking then there is no rush to change. The new gasket will solve the weeping/saturated with oil issue.  Glad you are plugging the leaks one by one.  The hardest being the rear main.  Ain't that always the case???  But you know, as much as I plugged, patched, replaced, slathered on black sticky sealant, torqued to specs, scraped and cleaned there always is a drop or two forming somewhere under the engine.     

Edited September 23, 2016 by avgwarhawk
spelling (see edit history)

[EmTee]

13 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

But you know, as much as I plugged, patched, replaced, slathered on black sticky sealant, torqued to specs, scraped and cleaned there always is a drop or two forming somewhere under the engine.     

 

That's how you know it's alive!

[NTX5467]

The (somewhat) "luxury" of having a "daily driver" for alternative transportation is that you can take your time to address the little "nagging" drops and drips that many engines seem to have (especially the older designs).  Whether it's a valve cover (somewhat traditional) or an oil pan drain plug, fixing OR minimizing them is a good type of "stress relief" and a "labor of love" for our vehicles.  AND, when you make progress, it's a "victory" upon which other progress can be made!  A "victory" which can be celebrated with PRIDE!

 

On the issue of valve cover "warpage" or "bowage" . . .

The earlier valve cover designs used "center studs" and nuts with which to retain the valve cover to the cylinder head.  I don't recall any issues with the "bowage" as illustrated, but I can NOW see that it's possible with the orientation that "a little tight is good, more might keep things from leaking better".  Just as the air cleaners with the base plate and upper area, with the filter element inside . . . crank down to make sure that filter is slightly compressed for best filtering performance (which also exerted a constant pulling force on the air cleaner stud, which could deform the air horn casting itself . . . which I first found out about in about 1968 on our '66 Chrysler 2bbl carb. 

 

Those valve cover retention methods were then moved to "flange bolts" (ala the '55 Chevy V-8, or similar), first 4 bolts, then 6 bolts/cover on some engines.  With no or minimal "spreading" of the bolt torque on the valve covers, the classic "depression" at the bolt hole area existed, which had to be flattened with a hammer when new valve cover gaskets were installed.  To ensure they didn't move and leak?  The also classic "yellow" sealer (or other appropriate name) that was a total "operation" to remove when new gaskets were installed.  Yet, with all of the later, wider "spreader" bars and washers, valve cover leaks still existed due to the "wicking" action.  Compressing the cork was supposed to minimize it, as smaller cork particles were also supposed to do, but would happen with time.  Some oils had lighter components which would wick sooner than others, by observation.

 

When Chevrolet went to the center-bolt valve covers on the small block engines of the middle 1980s (as the 1986 Corvette aluminum heads I bought for my Camaro engine), they ALSO devised an internal support structure to keep the valve cover gaskets from being over-compressed (and the orientation thereof).  On the underside of the cover was a cross-brace attached to a tube.  The tube was of a calibrated length, including brass washers which interfaced with the appropriate bosses between the bolt tubes and alloy head material.  There was also a similar copper washer that went under the bolt head prior to the bolts assemblage through the cover and torqued into the cylinder head.  "Calibrated compression" of the gasket.  Also, in an effort to decrease seeps, there was also a flange on the inner side of the valve cover stamping which shielded the valve cover gasket from "raw oil", which also related to the "raised rail" of the cylinder head for the valve cover to seal against.

 

PERHAPS  . . . some of these more recent strategies for not over-tightening valve covers might be adapted to Buick engines to help prevent/minimize any valve cover deformations as ultimate "dry" valve cover gaskets are sought?  Additionally,my "oft-mentioned" strategy of "preparing" gaskets for installation.  If done correctly, these upgrades might be incognito until things are disassembled!

 

In my earlier searches for ways to minimize valve cover leaks, I discovered that many of the mechanics of the time had their own tricks to ensure "no seeps/leaks".  I watched them to it and they all seemed to do a good job.  I came to despise the "yellow goop" retention method!  No telling how many labor hours were consumed in removing that stuff, but it was the accepted way to do things . . . NOT.  Perhaps a dab to keep the gasket from moving as the valve cover was flipped at installation time, but not with strings of sealer on the valve cover gasket surface. 

 

Once my machine shop operative pointed out the real reason for the seeps, the "wicking action", which once it starts, nothing can really stop it, then I sought ways to stop that from happening.  I'd already discovered that using OEM-quality carb base gaskets, with a thin layer of high-temp silicone sealer on both sides of the gasket (key word is "thin"/smeared), I soon discovered that when I took a carb off that what was left of the sealer on the intake manifold mount flange could be rubbed off with my fingers.  So MUCH better than that old "yellow stuff" and the need for a gasket scraper!!!  This also meant the gasket could be re-conditioned and re-used, as no chunks of it were attached to the manifold.  I expanded that to other gaskets which I replaced.  If I was going to do it, I didn't want to spend a lot of time cleaning things I could make come off cleaner in the first place.  And THAT's why I started to put a thin/finger-smeared coat of black high-temp silicone sealer on ALL gaskets I replaced, let it cure overnight, then installed.  Not only NO leaks/seeps, but easier disassembly (remembering chiseling that yellow stuff in my high school days!).

 

In the 1980s, a new style of flat gasket appeared.  The "print-o-seal" gasket.  GM started using that as thermostat housing gaskets on small block Chevy engines.  A bead of sealer was applied, robotically, to both sides of the base t-stat gasket.  Better sealing was the result, long-term, by observation.  No more nagging seeps from the t-stat housing!  I adapted that to the intake gaskets with embossed ridges in them.  I'd put sealer into those grooves, then smooth it with a Mr. Gasket gasket scraper, then smooth sealer over the rest of the total gasket.  When cured and torqued, "instant" Print-o-Seal gasket, DIY.  I also did that with the metal intake gasket plate on my 383 Chrysler V-8, too.  No reason why it would not work great on any other similar design gasket!

 

It's been one of my orientations to improve earlier designs with more modern sealing technology.  Not unlike using better motor oils for better service life and engine performance.  With the correct amount of installation expertise and execution (using black rather than orange or blue sealers!!), everything is typically "invisible".  Although engine paint used to be the outer seal of the valve cover gasket (helping to minimize the wicking until the paint heat-cycle crazed later on, allowing any wicking to be facilitated), FEW people would notice "black" rather than engine color in the shadows under the flanges of the valve covers.

 

ONE other thing about "engine sealing" . . . an O-ring is not a universal item.  They might all look the same, and appear so, the COMPOUND of the rubber can be different as to what types of oil/fluid it seals against!  In my earlier days in the dealership parts business, a tech came up and wanted the O-ring for a transmission dipstick tube.  I asked one of the parts people where it was and he directed me to the universal assortment of O-rings we had.  The tech chose one and left.  A few weeks later, same request, except that that last one had leaked.  I knew that GM had a specific part number for that item, so I sought one of them (which we also had in stock).  I gave it to the tech and the item was charged on a repair order.  It seems that our parts person had been giving out those universal O-rings for a while, but the tech was having to change them as they leaked later.  That OEM-spec part was built to seal against atf, but the universal one apparently was NOT, so it swelled and leaked after a while.  Same with using fuel line for power steering return line!  It might work with some oils, but not all of them (including atf).  GM also used to service specific fuel line hose as they also had specific power steering return line ose.  All were listed in the old "Standard Parts" listings, although sold in specific "roll" lengths at prices which were more than "auto supply" items.

 

These have been my experiences, your experiences might vary, which I respect.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

So.... any advice on removing the oil pan? Got all the bolts out, can't get it free. Hit it a few times with a rubber mallet, tried using a puddy knife but there's really no room under there.

[JohnD1956]

If it's that tight, then check again for a remaining bolt or two. Also have you removed the trans inspection plate?