WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks guys, gonna purchase some new wires today and probably some new spark plugs just for safe measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Be careful of how you route your wires and maybe a new distributor cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 10-4 James. I've been reading a bunch of other threads on here this morning regarding similar issues. I saw this post from John. I liked his idea where he added wire looms to his spark plug wires and to the cover bolts. Would this help as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I agree/concur. It appears the wire is finding a easier way to ground through the rubber boot. That is electrical blue. Replace all the wires. Replace them one at a time so the firing order is not buggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks guys, gonna purchase some new wires today and probably some new spark plugs just for safe measure.As long as you are in there replace the plugs. Assure the gap for each plug is correct. Work each cylinder and wire one at a time. This will prevent crossing wires mistakenly. When pushing on the new wire onto the spark plug assure these are tight. It is ok to squeeze(pair of pliers) the metal lead that snaps onto the sparkplug so it is snug and will not come loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 10-4 James. I've been reading a bunch of other threads on here this morning regarding similar issues. I saw this post from John. I liked his idea where he added wire looms to his spark plug wires and to the cover bolts. Would this help as well?yes!I was thinking of that thread!!Hopefully that will be the answer to your problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 GAAAK! I guess I assumed too much or did not keep up or remember what was done to that engine. I thought it was newly refurbished and had new wires and the rest of the ignition system was good. That is a huge spark, since the spark will fire across the smallest gap which should be the spark plug at 0.035" max. Either there is a loose boot on the a plug or the plug is fouled creating resistance or those are deteriorated resistance wires. Or you have the Pertronix wired with the ballast resistor bypassed. If you use Pertronix use a stock coil wired through the ballast resistor as was done originally (what is that chrome thing anyway?). Good wires don't need to be isolated except for avoiding running parallel where induction firing can occur (you will not see this in the dark).I ran across a discussion where an MG engine was run on a dyno with various combinations of plug wires and points and Pertronix. On that test engine the highest power was achieved with points and solid core wires. There was no mention of plug type. I use NAPA-Belden 700175 wires with Autolite 85 plugs (I was using the non-resistor Autolite 75's, but had interference with an added cruise control)...in addition to those old primitive points.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I'm with Willie. Sometimes we get ahead of ourselves and believe each and every ignition part has been replaced but there is still an issue. I guess our first question in these type threads is: Has a complete tune up been completed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Okay, I ordered some new BWD wires and Autolite AP85 froms OReiley's this morning and they are supposed to arrive this afternoon or tomorrow morning at the latest. Engine was rebuilt in '03 and poor thing just sat. I never even tried to start her until early 2012 (I'll spare you all the excuses!) I had put in fresh oil and gotten new wires from Bob's and new Autolite 85's and distributor cap. Triple checked the wire paths to the manual. Lamar and I got her timed, started and idling good. She would pop every now and again, but I thought it was backfire because I hadn't gotten an exhaust yet. Little did I know... I've never even driven her (Brakes and a myriad of other stuff to do on her caused this second break) We did bypass the ballast resistor back then because it started smoking when we were trying to start her. I have the Pertronix and the flame thrower coil. So let me see if I can find a ballast resistor and an original coil.Just so I'm clear, so that blue flame is actually a spark that is going all the way into the block and out through the hole in the exhaust manifold? holy schnikes!Thanks so much guys.oh and to answer your question Chris, a complete tune up has never been completed. oi, I've got lots to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Please get rid of the flame thrower. It is not needed. If the mixture does not burn in the cylinder with standard plug, coil and points it was not meant to burn. Honestly, I run the points. No fuss or muss. I drive the car about 2500 miles per year. Replacing the points will happen somewhere around 2020. Standard coil is plenty. Yes, it does appear the wire is arcing to the manifold which means it is the easier path to ground. The plug itself should be the easier path to ground. It is intermittent and producing your putt putt at the tailpipe. Hoping all valves are doing their thing! Replacing that wire should tell the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Point to the spot the blue flash is coming from...I lost my orientation when the video went dark. Also don't use those platinum or other premium plugs in that engine. The tiny electrodes are easily fouled with oil or an overly rich mixture which can happen in a carbureted engine but not in modern fuel injected engines.When you are satisfied with the ignition tuning, take it out and "drive it like you stole it". I want to hear a drive report since all this other stuff is giving me a headache.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 What were the compression readings?Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Oh there's an undeveloped neighborhood just around the corner I've been aching to take the 'ol girl :cool: Understood Willie, thanks. I'll get the regular 85's instead of the platinum. Thanks to you and Chris it also sounds like I really need to just get rid of the Pertronix altogether (I'm sorry I didn't heed your suggestion years ago!) O'Reily's has a replacement ignition coil and ballast resistor. Distributor cap is going to take a few days. Crap, I guess I need points and a rotor too. Regarding the blue mystery:Red arrow is pointing to where the blue flash is coming from (this is just a photo I found on the internet) So the spring, pin, butterfly and weight are removed. There's a hole where the pin was inserted to hold all these parts and that is where the blue mystery is coming from. Does that make sense? Edited April 1, 2015 by WillBilly53 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 What were the compression readings?Bernie1-3-5-7 all are at 145 lbs/sqr. inch.2-4-6 are at 130 with 8 being at 135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Ok, that's not a spark from a wire arcing...still could be induction firing or sticking valve causing a miss. Recommendation: install a ballast resistor and wire to + terminal of the stock coil, drive it an report back. Change only one thing at a time for now. Plug that hole in the manifold: drill, tap and install a bolt.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 There was discussion about avoiding parallel wires. I think that if you use the pretty stock wire covers you have to have parallel wires. The stock coil and points apparently did not breech the insulation thus loomed. But the Blaster et al may have overwhelmed the old design. The HEI generation of cars uses fat spark plug wires and needs new ones often.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Excellent, thanks Willie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 I routed the wires like the pictures in the manual, but now I'm questioning it. I know what parallel means, but maybe not so much in this context. Does someone have a photo or other close up example of what the should (or shouldn't) look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The picture on Willie's post shows the ignition wire cover installed. The wires run through this cover. See also figure 2-2 in the 53 Shop Manual. My covers are missing though and the wires work fine with the standard coil.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I've always routed the wires similar to what the manual shows and as long as the wires are good, you should be fine, esp if you don't have the covers on. They look great and were of course supplied when new, but for me, they've given me problems in wet weather.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Hey Will,I love that you are being persistent and continuing to ask questions. Even "basic" questions. It makes reading easier. It helps people who don't know everything, myself included. I have been frustrated more times than I care to remember. I just had to give up on a car that had problems that I just couldn't solve in a timely and cost effective manner.I agree that you should definitely only change one thing at a time. The real bummer comes in when you change two things with two new parts and a different problem occurs. Why? Because one of the new parts is bad right out of the box. That will make you say bad things. Sometimes loudly.You will get it, man. Keep at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Ok, that's not a spark from a wire arcing...still could be induction firing or sticking valve causing a miss. Recommendation: install a ballast resistor and wire to + terminal of the stock coil, drive it an report back. Change only one thing at a time for now. Plug that hole in the manifold: drill, tap and install a bolt.Williethat narrow blue flame sure looked like a spark. But, I agree that coming from that part of the manifold, it is not electrical.I lost my bearing in the dark.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Originally Posted by 60FlatTop What were the compression readings?Bernie1-3-5-7 all are at 145 lbs/sqr. inch.2-4-6 are at 130 with 8 being at 135That looks like a gasket issue to me .Each bank is consistant within itself.But, one thing at a time, Will.let's fix the problem at hand.then deal with compression, later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The compression shows the left bank about 15 PSI higher than the right on all cylinders. The first step of a tune up is the compression check. If the cylinders are not all within 10% the chances of it running smooth are low. All the low ones on one bank raises a red flag.Was the carb propped over for the test?Did you use a screw in compression tester or a rubber plug type?Was that test wet or dry? If it was dry what did the wet test show?A leak down test is in order at a minimum.Post #104, Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Thank you Mike, Willie, James, John, Chris, Lamar and everyone else I forgotten! I was just telling my wife last week how cool everyone is on this forum. I was 28 when I first got her in '02 and didn't even know what a carburetor looked like, or what a distributor was (still have tons to learn) I've had to redo things twice and more because of my laziness or ineptness. (I think I could do a torque tube retainer job blindfolded now, lol!) I know I'm not as active on here and post with more questions than I do solutions, but you all have been a tremendous help and I really do appreciate it. Hopefully I have answered some others' questions over the years and can pass what little I know to some else in the future.I apologize for the orientation of that last part of the video. I was indeed trying to watch for arcing in the dark and saw that blue flame so I quickly put the camera down in the bay to try and catch it on video!I pick up the spark plugs, wires, stock coil and ballast resistor today to install. I'll also plug the hole in the manifold as Willie suggested and I'll report back. Hopefully with some "good" news.As my first art professor once told me. If you are having trouble with a piece, go back to the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) I learned by doing hands on as well. Although the large chunk of metal under the hood looks mysterious to most it really isn't. Hope it all goes well after the tune up and plugging the blue flame thrower! Edited April 2, 2015 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The compression shows the left bank about 15 PSI higher than the right on all cylinders. BernieBernie, my '55 264 2v showed similar results with one bank lower than other, wondered why but it runs OK. Pretty sure it has been rebuilt also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 One cylinder head and/or the block deck may have been surfaced more resulting in the higher compression on one side. Also one head may has valve recession from use and repeated valve jobs resulting in lower compression. One that I encountered like that had a thicker head gasket on one side. If everything is working right (ignition and carb), you probably would not notice a problem....that is not causing low power, spitting and missing. One thing at a time before you go to a leak down test.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Yeah, kinda what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So the blue flame is shooting out at the bottom of the exhaust manifold. And its not electrical. So combustion is apparently not contained by the exhaust valve. Does this sound right? A Sticking exhaust valve?Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So the blue flame is shooting out at the bottom of the exhaust manifold. And its not electrical. So combustion is apparently not contained by the exhaust valve. Does this sound right? A Sticking exhaust valve?PatIt could quite possibly be the fuel mixture that was not burned in the cylinder as it should but burns as it exits the exhaust valve hitting the hot manifold creating a backfire of sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 That looks like a gasket issue to me .Each bank is consistant within itself.But, one thing at a time, Will.let's fix the problem at hand.then deal with compression, laterThe compression shows the left bank about 15 PSI higher than the right on all cylinders. The first step of a tune up is the compression check. If the cylinders are not all within 10% the chances of it running smooth are low. All the low ones on one bank raises a red flag.Was the carb propped over for the test?Did you use a screw in compression tester or a rubber plug type?Was that test wet or dry? If it was dry what did the wet test show?A leak down test is in order at a minimum.Post #104, BernieI don't disagree about the importance of the compression test results.My thouhgt is get the ignition system fixed firstone step at a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 When everything else is good, the engine will run decent with those compression readings. I've seen way worse than that, in running and driving cars. Not to say that something might be wrong, but once you get it running well, you may be able to just drive it and all will be good. Also, those readings should be verified before you go pulling the engine apart. The basics will screw you just as bad as the complicated stuff. I listened to your you tube video, and I must say to me, it sounds like an engine running with bad timing, either about zero, or even a few degrees retarded, ie late. I wonder about that Petronix, I have used them also, and they can improve the general running of the engine, but only if they are ok, and all else is up to scratch, but I have had them go bad. What I'm getting at, it could be its' not set up right, or it could be defective, that's the least likely scenario, I would think, but possible. Also, I always found that the timing needs some adjustment one way or another when the Petronix is installed. I know that you have a multitude of opinions here, all from good experienced guys, but go through the basic stuff, I would even suggest that you put points back in, gap them properly, which will put you back to factory ignition, and see what that does. Also, as someone else has said change one thing at a time, so you know what is doing what. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 One more thing (yeah, I know it never 'one more thing') check the rotor since you have have been running with Pertronix without the ballast resistor (the hotter spark will overheat the early nailhead rotor to the point of even catching fire. Specifically check the carbon rod between the center and tip for overheating...or alternately check continuity between the the center and tip. One thing at a time Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 thanks for the encouragement folks. I've got my bag of goodies. I went ahead and got points, condenser, distributor rotor, distributor cap, spark plugs (ACDelco R43S-they were out of the Autolite 85's), new plug wires 7mm with silicone insulation (and plastic wire loom per John's post), stock coil and ballast resistor.I also ordered a tach/volt/dwell meter that should be here on Tuesday.Tomorrow is going to be a fun day! Wish me luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhambulldog Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Nice Catch !! All that gear !I have better luck with the ACDelco-R43S than the others. Have you a timing light as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 When pulling the spark plugs, try to keep them per left and right head , and in the cylinder order, and then take a picture of the ends that are in the motor. It could help identify a problem and area to concentrate on. For clarity, I am suggesting a picture of four plugs at a time. All the ones from the left side, in cylinder order. And then all the ones from the right side, again in cylinder order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Good idea to read the plugs and label them for further study.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillBilly53 Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 When pulling the spark plugs, try to keep them per left and right head , and in the cylinder order, and then take a picture of the ends that are in the motor. It could help identify a problem and area to concentrate on. For clarity, I am suggesting a picture of four plugs at a time. All the ones from the left side, in cylinder order. And then all the ones from the right side, again in cylinder order.man, of course I didn't do that! dang it. I'm posting some photos of the plugs anyways. That one on the far right... how the heck would that happen? I promise I didn't set a .000001 gap. I also notice there's that one with what looks like zero carbon. Maybe hasn't been firing? anyways, I drilled, tapped and plugged the exhaust manifold hole where the heat riser valve was with a grade 8 bolt. I put the new plugs in torqued to 20-28 lbs per the manual, put the stock coil on and put in the condensor. I was about to put in the points when I noticed it looks exactly backwards to what is in the manual (see photo). The mechanism looks flip-flopped. What in the world? All the parts I look up online shows that the part I have is correct. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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