Difficulty selecting gear on a 1926 Standard Six

[hidden_hunter]

Hi guys,

Work is progressing well on the standard six, but have come across a new problem in the last couple of days and I'm not really sure where to start. Basically I'm having great difficulty selecting any gears while the motor is running, it just wants to crunch but if you start it in gear with your foot on the clutch the gear engages just fine and you can drive just fine. When the motor isn't running I can select all the gears fine and there is a positive action on the selection. The bite point on the clutch is about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up the clutch pedal (from the initial pressure point)

I'm wondering if it's that the pedal isn't going far enough down to fully engage or should I be looking deeper in the transmission

Thoughts?

[Leif Holmberg]

hidden hunter,a lot of Buick 1925 Std owners have the same problem as you have,but I don`t think anyone can tell exacly what it`s.I have never had that problems on my 1923-1924-1925 Buicks with the nearly same type of clutch.But I just wonder if the axle in front of the gear that goes in to the flywheel not have any grease on it and will follow the engine when it`s started?Or maybe you need to grease the "splines"with molycote where the clutch is going.I`m sure Larry "dirbalaw" have something to say abot this problem as well.

Leif in Sweden.

[hidden_hunter]

It probably hasn't seen steam cylinder oil as per the lube chart in a long time, it is fully greased via the zerks and grease cup .

What's the modern equivalent of steam cylinder oil? I know Mobil seem to still make some but it's pretty hard to track down here is Australia

[ROD W]

Hidden hunter, Thats what you need for the gearbox, a heavy oil to slow the gears down, .Penrite Transoil 250 is made for old gearboxes. Go into the Penrite home page and look at their vintage oils

[hidden_hunter]

is that likely to be causing the difficulty shifting or just a general maintenance thing?

[Bob Engle]

The 600 wt oil sold for Model A Fords is good substitute. I have no experience with the 20,s Buick transmissions, but The Model A's need the thick oil to keep the cluster gears spinning at an appropriate speed to allow good shifts.

Bob Engle

[hidden_hunter]

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=14&id_products=83

Is this one ok?

mobil provide more info on their product (which I vaguely recall the penrite is actually just a rebadge job)

Mobil 600 W Cylinder Oil

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_Cylinder_Oils.aspx

[dibarlaw]

hidden hunter:

Welcome to my world. I have attempted all the aforementioned "fixes" to my 1925-25 including trying to de-gum the faces with solvent and detergent. All made the clutch work better the first few times. But after sitting overnight the same problem came back.. Start up- then gears-no-go! Shut down-- put into gear--restart --hold on to the brake until the clutch breaks free...as the car lurches ahead... A very unrespectable means of getting underway! While the car is parked I have a length of wood wedged under the dash to keep the clutch pedal in. While the car is underway I have gotten used to doing the shifts in a fairly peaceful manner. Although one day it would give me no trouble then the next day, miss a downshift and have to shut down and start all over again. As I approach a stop I depress the clutch then I will give the accelerator a shot to rev up a bit, and the clutch usually breaks free.

Just worried about the day when it does not!

I did find a source for 600# Steam Cylinder oil and it does shift much better than when I first drove it.

Larry

[hidden_hunter]

hidden hunter:

Welcome to my world. I have attempted all the aforementioned "fixes" to my 1925-25 including trying to de-gum the faces with solvent and detergent. All made the clutch work better the first few times. But after sitting overnight the same problem came back.. Start up- then gears-no-go! Shut down-- put into gear--restart --hold on to the brake until the clutch breaks free...as the car lurches ahead... A very unrespectable means of getting underway! While the car is parked I have a length of wood wedged under the dash to keep the clutch pedal in. While the car is underway I have gotten used to doing the shifts in a fairly peaceful manner. Although one day it would give me no trouble then the next day, miss a downshift and have to shut down and start all over again. As I approach a stop I depress the clutch then I will give the accelerator a shot to rev up a bit, and the clutch usually breaks free.

Just worried about the day when it does not!

I did find a source for 600# Steam Cylinder oil and it does shift much better than when I first drove it.

Larry

it's annoying because it was shifting great for me just last week

[hidden_hunter]

Should you be able to see the gbox oil level from the filler plug?

[dibarlaw]

You should be able to feel the oil at the threads of the side plug. Fill it up till it starts to run out or just below the "sight hole " as the manual states.

[Mark Shaw]

I use Shell Dentax or Texaco Thuban SAE 250 WT lube for rear ends and transmissions in all but my 38 Special.

[hidden_hunter]

You should be able to feel the oil at the threads of the side plug. Fill it up till it starts to run out or just below the "sight hole " as the manual states.

Thanks guys! any rough idea of what the total capacity is? or am I barking up the wrong tree thinking this might be the main reason for the difficulties

[hidden_hunter]

Ok, filled it up with fresh oil (and did the diff at the same time) which was surprisingly hard on my thumbs from squeezing such thick oil out of the bottle!

Unfortunately it didn't resolve the issue, I still can't select any gears. I've done what the manual states to clean gummy clutches by putting gas in to clean it but need to wait for it to fully dry before I can see if that resolves the issue (it's a bit cold here in Melbourne today, so I've left it overnight)

Failing that, what's my next option? Open it up and perform a visual inspection and go from there? My shop manual talks about having to remove the rear axel to get at it, is there any easier way or is that really the only way to do it?

[dibarlaw]

hidden :

Again welcome to our world. I know that torque tube drive stops a lot of "do it your self" home repairmen. I deliberately passed on buying several nice 1930s Buicks back in the 1970s because of the rear axle removal in order to service. " Runs great, but what is that sound?. Oh, just needs a pilot bearing real cheap fix".......So instead back in 1987 I bought a 1937 Special with what felt like a good clutch and then blew it on the drive home. So I still had to pull the rear axle. Sat for 25 years before I got a clutch back in her. All I know is that a much younger man that I am now pulled it out.

When we bought the 1925 in 2011 it was to be running well "all it needs is the clutch adjusted...." So I am trying all the fixes as stated before I pull that rear axle. That young man is long gone.

Best of luck :

Larry

[DonMicheletti]

With a transmission like that, if you have gear change problems, it is very unlikely that the problem is the transmission.

Undoubtedly, the clutch isnt disengaging properly and there are a lot of reasons that can happen.

Also, with a "crash" box, youll always get gear clash when you put it gear after starting the engine. That can be especially bad if the engine is idling fast.

You can always do what the manual says..."shift quickly..." Youll still get clash, bit it will be at a minimum. It is the same going from 1st to 2nd, etc.

[ROD W]

Hidden hunter

This is the way they removed the rear axles in 1930. There is one fellow working under the car, If I was under the car I would want more than just a block and tackle holding it up. Dibarlaw, sorry to hear about your ongoing clutch problems.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ROD W (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Last week I was redoing the cobbled up brakes (steel split rivets) with properly counter sunk and set brass rivets, new tires and repainting the two wheels on the drivers side. Today I adjusted the brakes, filled the transmission which was about 1/2 pint low and went for a drive. Of course I started out in the same fashion but every shift up or down afterward was quite positive with a minimum of clash. Thank God for small victories! This week I will change out the old radiator for the re-cored one I had made last year to hopefully cure the chronic overheating.

I guess we have to just keep at it!

Larry

[hidden_hunter]

Status update lunch time Sunday, prop shaft has been seperated (after some creative uses of jacks and stands to separate the spring holders)

Anything I should take the opportunity to look at while I'm here?

[ROD W]

Check the pilot bush in the centre of the fly wheel isn,t worn. Check the clutch throw out bearing, If your relining the clutch discs it would be a good idea to replace the felt oil seal at the back of the motor.( if the back of the motor is very oily). But this can be done later. Ensure the splined discs move freely in the splines on the fly wheel and the splined clutch hub. Ensure the clutch discs are not bent or warped.

[hidden_hunter]

Guess what we found between the clutch and the transmission?

guessing that wasn't helping the situation!

It was pretty gummed up in there, so we gave everything a good clean. The clutch seemed ok, so I think I'll leave taking it apart for now and hope the cleaning and removal of the rag is enough to get it shifting again.

Next challenge, getting the transmission back on.. any tips on the best way to get it back on easily?

[DonMicheletti]

Since you have done all this work to get to the point where you can check the condition of the clutch, why not go ahead and check it and maybe save yourself the work of doing it all over again?

Cheap insurance

[hidden_hunter]

Gave the clutch a good clean out as well while we were at it, so hopefully we're good to go now

Does anyone have any tips for getting the prop shaft to mate with the back of the transmission?

[hidden_hunter]

ok, I got it all back together and still the same problem - can't shift into gear without it crunching - as far as I can tell when my foot is on the clutch pedal the clutch isn't disengaging and continues to spin.

I had resisted taking the clutch out of the car as the manual states I should use a press to get it back together (which I don't have) but it seems like I'm going to have to do it anyway and find a way to put it back together - unless anyone has any ideas of anything else to try

What's more is something seems to be rubbing and causing marks on the clutch when you look in the inspection hole - see photos

[Leif Holmberg]

hidden_hunter.I can`t belive you need a big press to do that work.I have never used a press other than a skrew clamp or my skrew vise for my 1923-1925 cluches.I even think you can use your hands to press as well if you are strong enough.Another way is to use a threaded rod and nuts with large plate on each side to press the parts and put the nuts on the clutch plate.

Leif in Sweden.

[Dave_B]

hidden_hunter, when you take apart the clutch but a nail in the hole in each of the three studs coming through the plate seen in the pictures. This will keep the spring compressed when you remove the nuts at the clutch perimeter.

Dave

[Jim Bourque]

There are 3 empty holes that you can put bolts through and install nuts on to clamp the outer cover to the inner. That will keep the spring compressed while you take the clutch pack apart. You will not be able to replace the lining on the cover unless you clamp the inner and outer covers in a vise and remove the 3 bolts/nuts. When reinstalling/assembling the clutch pack leave the covers clamped together to realign all plates with the drive pins and center spider using the transmission input shaft to locate the whole thing to the flywheel

Jim

[ROD W]

I use clamps

[hidden_hunter]

Thanks guys, looks like I might have a few busy weekends ahead of me!

I assume no-one saw anything obviously wrong in my pictures before? when I put my foot on the clutch pedal it seems to move all the way in on the small shaft you can see through the inspection hole

[Roger Barrett]

I have run into this on several of these cars. The first one I had the trans in and out more times than I care to admit. The problem is alignment between the engine and transmission. Misalignment here will cause the pilot shaft to bind in the bushing in the rear of the crankshaft, causing just the symptoms you describe. The best way to check it is to attach a dial indicator to the flywheel or clutch, anything that turns with the crankshaft. Run the indicator on both the rearward facing surface of the clutch housing (lateral runout) and the outer surface of the housing that extends into the trans housing bore (radial runout). Both should be less than .006" total runout. Problems can be corrected with shims between the cylinder block and clutch housing and/or playing around with the dowel pins. This is a common practice with heavy truck repair. It is standard procedure to check the alignment when replacing a truck clutch. On my 1926 I had to make a lot of corrections to the clutch housing. This car as it turns out was involved in a rear end collision when it was almost new, damaging the trans housing, clutch housing, and block, all three. Also, the alignment of the crankshaft in the block is suspect. After making the necessary alignment corrections, the clutch performs and releases as it should. It is not likely you will have to go to measures I did, but alignment is crucial. Also make sure your pilot bushing or bearing is not binding on the input shaft. A quick and low-tech way of checking all of this is to remove the clutch and bolt the trans in place. With the trans in neutral the input shaft should turn freely. If not there is either a problem with the pilot bearing or alignment. Try this first. You can pull the clutch out and put it back in without special tools.

Roger

[dibarlaw]

hidden_hunter:

I will be posting more on my thread on 1925 Clutch Issues but this is what I used to hold the rear plate and spring compressed on mine. Also some comparisons between the Standard and Master clutches. I know that yours should be different than mine.

Standard on the left. Standard spider on the left.

Best of luck :

Larry