no oil to motor

[Guest rls65rls]

hello everyone, help! we're at the point of trying to get the motor ready to fire up. we filled the motor with oil to pre prime the motor...but to our amazement there is no oil coming up to the heads or valves and cylinders. does anyone know what the problem could be. the oil pump or pick-up tube, and if that's the problem can the oil pump or pick-up tube be changed without pulling the engine. the motor has been rebuilt but the original oil pump was reinstalled, I really don't know what else the problem could be. I really would hate to have to pull the motor. the mechanic thinks that's what has to be done. this is starting to get expensive. any help would be great. you have all been awesome in helping me with putting together this car, I'm really thankful for all your help. rls65rls :confused:

[dan at larescorp]

Did you spin the oil pump before firing the motor? It takes a while to get oil through the motor on the initial fire up. Pull the distributor and make a tool to turn the oil pump shaft. If you use a drill or something along those lines to spin the shaft you should be able to make it build enough pressure to send oil to the valves without the motor running. That way it doesn't cause any damage to the motor.

[Guest rls65rls]

Did you spin the oil pump before firing the motor? It takes a while to get oil through the motor on the initial fire up. Pull the distributor and make a tool to turn the oil pump shaft. If you use a drill or something along those lines to spin the shaft you should be able to make it build enough pressure to send oil to the valves without the motor running. That way it doesn't cause any damage to the motor.

hello. that's how we started. we used the drill to spin the engine but no luck.

[60FlatTop]

I figure you mean you are using the drill to spin the oil pump, not really the engine. Be sure it is rotating the same direction the distributor turns and that the oil pressure switch has been installed in the bell housing flange. If that hole is open there could be oil under the car.

If things are good so far put an extra 3 or 4 quarts of oil in and try spinning the pump. If the oil pump wasn't primed with a light assembly grease you might not be getting a suction. Adding extra oil might cover the pump and get it pulling.

Once the engine lubes drain the extra to bring it back to the correct level.

That's what I would do if the car was here.

Bernie

[Guest rls65rls]

thanks .we'll give that a try if that don't work do we have to pull the engine to put in a new oil pump? thanks.

[60FlatTop]

You can slither the pan out with the engine in place. The four bolts above the cross member are best removed with a 1/4" drive socket set. The exhaust and lower radiator hose need to be loose. And take the bolts out of the transmission mount for GP. I have used a block of wood under the crankshaft pulley for a gentle lift.

Be sure to remove the fan shroud and disconnect the transmission cooling lines. The engine needs to come up at least 4 inches

If you reinstall the pan with the engine in the car use fine thread through the oil pan bolt holes to keep the gasket in place. And watch where you put your fingers.

Be sure to disconnect the battery. Imagine you hand on the crank if someone hits the starter. One revolution is enough.

Bernie

[Guest rls65rls]

thanks Bernie. I'm sure we'll have to try that, I'm pretty stupid now that I think about it, not to have installed a new oil pump, don't know what else it could be. hate to pull the engine.

Edited February 27, 2014 by rls65rls (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

If the original oil pump was inspected and found to be OK, it should not be assumed a problem just because its the "original". The pump would have had to have been really scored up/worn bad to not build any pressure at all. Surely this would have been observed during rebuild.

What direction are you spinning the pump and what are you using to spin it?

Were the pump gears packed with vaseline/grease on reassembly.

Are you sure all the oil galley plugs were reinstalled in the block when it was rebuilt?

[Guest rls65rls]

hey Jason, all you guys have been great with the info, as to the engine re-build everything was taken to a reputable engine builder in the town I live in here in wis. you would think they would have checked everything before installing parts back into the motor. suposidly the average re-build, I guess the only thing to do is start with a new oil pump.

Edited February 27, 2014 by rls65rls (see edit history)

[alini]

Did you do anything to 'prime' the pump. If the pump was dry during assembly it wont' suck up oil as well. Some folks put assy lube in the pump as the put things together, so there is something to help create suction

[Bill Stoneberg]

hey Jason, all you guys have been great with the info, as to the engine re-build everything was taken to a reputable engine builder in the town I live in here in wis. you would think they would have checked everything before installing parts back into the motor. suposidly the average re-build, I guess the only thing to do is start with a new oil pump.

i had my engine rebuilt by the best guy in town too. Timing gears on wrong, the rod caps wer backwards and when I pulled the cam it looked like it was put in with a hammer. Don't trust anyone with a Buick engine and check everything.

[60FlatTop]

Don't take a good steak to the best short order cook in town, he'll cook it like bacon. He doesn't know what it is.

I agree, the pump would have to be really bad or broken not to pump. My guess is that it wasn't primed. Flood the oil in and get the pump submerged first. If 3 or 4 quarts don't do it try a couple more.

Bernie

[1965rivgs]

hey Jason, all you guys have been great with the info, as to the engine re-build everything was taken to a reputable engine builder in the town I live in here in wis. you would think they would have checked everything before installing parts back into the motor. suposidly the average re-build, I guess the only thing to do is start with a new oil pump.

Assuming you are turning the pump in the correct direction call the rebuilder. The more you mess with the motor the less likely he will be to stand behind his work. If you start getting into changing out the oil pump you are giving him a crutch/excuse to lean on. He will probably appreciate the call instead of hearing after the fact that his work was unacceptable and that you are a dissatisfied customer. Good luck!

Tom Mooney

[Guest rls65rls]

I'm no engine builder or mechanic, so the major things like the engine were done by the pros ,I'm learning as I go and its cramping the old budget.

[RivNut]

We've been around these engines for a long time and I can't tell you how many times engines have been reassembled and the oil galley plug that is hidden inside the distributor opening had been left out. (If they were even removed in the first place.) Did the front cam bearing get installed in the right position? It's a slot rather than a hole, even though it lines up with a hole in the block. If it's "clocked" wrong, oil doesn't get past it.

The real engine gurus are independent guys who don't participate in this forum. Not saying there's not a plethora of info here, but it takes someone especially familair with a nailhead to get it right. Just because a guys rebuilt X number of small block chevys and 2x big block chevys carries zero credibility in rebuilding a nailhead.

Ed

[60FlatTop]

Ed, The oil galley plugs have been left out or not removed at all, many times. It's pretty plain in this capture from the shop manual:

I'm not an engine, transmission, tune-up, rear end, or any other type of guru. I am a skilled reader. Back around 1988 I left my Riviera at a spring specialty shop (gurus, I guess) to have new rear springs installed. The instructions in the manual looked to be beyond what I was personally confident in. I left the car and the shop manual. When I put the manual on the counter the foolru asked why. I told him there were specific instructions. He gave me a stupid look. I picked up the car it leaned to one side, the distance from the axle was different side to side, and the spring ends did not point as instructed in the manual, which sat on the counter in exactly the same spot.

Dealing with professionals, whether mechanics, doctors, or lawyers (I might trust an Indian Chief) has been an increasing disappointing experience since the spring incident. Most recently I had a transmission rebuilt at Bozo's Transmission. I get to listen to that mistake whine whenever I put it in gear.

Although I might have some machine work done, and measure the results myself, I'll never take an engine to anyone for a rebuild or pretty much anything.

Bernie

Edited February 27, 2014 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Guest clamshells]

First things first replace that old pump. Even if the oil pump worked when the engine was running prior to the work always replace the oil pump with a rebuild.

Excessive assembly lube and a weak oil pump in combination could be a the culprit.

Sounds like a good job on the cam bearing installation and I agree on the shop manual mentality.

Good luck.

Edited February 27, 2014 by clamshells (see edit history)

[johnrex]

We've been around these engines for a long time and I can't tell you how many times engines have been reassembled and the oil galley plug that is hidden inside the distributor opening had been left out. (If they were even removed in the first place.) Did the front cam bearing get installed in the right position? It's a slot rather than a hole, even though it lines up with a hole in the block. If it's "clocked" wrong, oil doesn't get past it.

The real engine gurus are independent guys who don't participate in this forum. Not saying there's not a plethora of info here, but it takes someone especially familair with a nailhead to get it right. Just because a guys rebuilt X number of small block chevys and 2x big block chevys carries zero credibility in rebuilding a nailhead.

Ed

The O'Reillys in Springfield, Mo. rebuilt a 425 for a friend. Got the cam bearing in wrong and trashed the engine!

[dan at larescorp]

The O'Reillys in Springfield, Mo. rebuilt a 425 for a friend. Got the cam bearing in wrong and trashed the engine!

O'Reilly's would have sent the motor off to another vendor to be rebuilt. They do not do R&R in house.

[TexasJohn55]

If the original oil pump was inspected and found to be OK, it should not be assumed a problem just because its the "original". The pump would have had to have been really scored up/worn bad to not build any pressure at all. Surely this would have been observed during rebuild.

What direction are you spinning the pump and what are you using to spin it?

Were the pump gears packed with vaseline/grease on reassembly.

Are you sure all the oil galley plugs were reinstalled in the block when it was rebuilt?

AGREED.

First things first replace that old pump. Even if the oil pump worked when the engine was running prior to the work always replace the oil pump with a rebuild.

Excessive assembly lube and a weak oil pump in combination could be a the culprit.

Sounds like a good job on the cam bearing installation and I agree on the shop manual mentality.

Good luck.

DISAGREE.

Try removing the oil pressure sending unit or plug and drill prime again. If any oil flows out while priming, it is likely galley plugs left out.

[Guest rls65rls]

hey guys, after a few days of lifting the motor a little to get the oil pan off the oil pump looked ok ,have not tested it yet, but.........my mechanic tried to rotate the crankshaft and it won't move. we took a screw driver to the fly wheel and we got it to move but very hard. the starter even won't turn it over. so would anyone maybe guess what could be holding it up. could this be a crap shoot ,like wrong bearings etc. I'm guessing i'll have to pull the engine and start over.

[RivNut]

I'm guessing i'll have to pull the engine and start over.

Probably your best idea.

[TexasJohn55]

Yep,

Pull the trans first and see if it will turn freely by hand or starter,

Did the engine spin freely before installing it?

Has it spun freely with starter after installing it?

[60FlatTop]

Depending on what point the mechanic got involved. I would consider pulling the mechanic first.

Bernie

[Guest rls65rls]

hello again, just an update to the motor problem, after pulling the engine on the riv, and after taking the the motor partly down we found the guy that re-built the motor installed the wrong crank bearings.so much for 1800.00 for that build. you would think the guy that installed the motor would have caught that when he installed the tranny. no receipt for the work, just a gentlemans agreement and a hand shake. I wonder if that would hold up in court. anyway I want to thank everyone who gave me a shoutout, you guys are great....thanks rls65rls

[Guest onedesertdog]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, and Yes, a verbal agreement or a handshake will hold up in court. I know this for a fact.

Buddy

[TexasJohn55]

I cannot comprehend how anyone can install the wrong size bearings and not know it. The mains would have locked the engine if wrong size as soon as they were torqued making it impossible to install pistons and rods. Same for rod bearings, should lock up immediately. Then how do you turn engine?

If undersize bearings were installed, it would spin just fine but not build much oil pressure.

Did you not say engine was locked up? I have been confused since this thread started.

[JZRIV]

I am scratching my head over this as well but as we know these things happen more often than they should. One thing is clear, whoever assembled the engine is incompetant and there will be more errors inside waiting to be discovered. Even if the builder agreed to correct the problem I personally could never trust anything they do and would have the engine torn back down by a professional and gone through. Any work the previous builder did must be scrutinized by someone familiar with the nailhead because now they aren't just looking for problems associated with normal wear but also human error.

[Bill Stoneberg]

After my "fun" with the nailhead built for me, I am going back to putting it back together myself. Its been a while since I did it, but I know how to read and know which cylinder is # 1 (for example).

If it would have gone in a car, it never would have started and it would have had to come back out.

[DualQuadDave]

If your motor ends up being totally fubar'd, I do have a built and done 65 401 shortblock I am selling. Yes, I back up my work and can provide references from those on this board and others, all with Nailheads. Let me know if I can be of help. Thanks and good luck!

Edited March 14, 2014 by DualQuadDave (see edit history)

[TexasJohn55]

Originally posted by DualQuadDave, "$1800? That is a tip for building a Nailhead. I have built over a dozen of these and the machine work is at least that much, no parts included"

Really? I hope you were exaggerating, since your post has been deleted. IMO, that is alot for machine work. What does that amount cover?

[DualQuadDave]

No, not an exaggeration. To do bore/hone, balance, pistons pressed onto rods, resize rods for ARP rod bolts, polish and/or turn crank, deck block, machine for screw in oil galley plugs, cam bearing install, freeze plug install, deck heads, new iron guides installed, serdi valve job, set the height on the valves, check and equalize the spring pressures, etc. I deleted the post because I really didn't feel like going on and on about it, but since you asked there it is. Russ and Tom are the guru's, but I doubt very many are rebuilding to this level. I build each motor like it's for me. You can do cheaper, but it's not going to be better for the $$.

[Lapham3]

Sorry to read this. For me-the 'word' or evidence('tracks') of a 'rebuild' or substantial recent work has been a red flag. I lose count as to how many of these situations I've seen or been aware of. Too bad, but that seems to be reality....another reason I've never to much bought into the old 'you get what you pay for' Dan Mpls. Mn.

[60FlatTop]

In a similar vein, last fall I got a call from a person I did work for in the mid-1990's. His car was a non-Buick but popular collector car. I corrected a number of running issues as simple as replacing the distributor vacuum diaphragm to bypassing the tail light wires that had been welded into the metal repair around the wheel well. The car ran great and he let it be known that I charged far too much for my skills, the ones the other places he took the car first didn't have.

A few years later a charging problem developed (not my charging, the electrical system).

His call to me last year was for advice on his legal recourse because, for a few reasons, the other guy had left his car sit in a field for almost 10 years with racoons nesting through the open window. The car is pretty much a parts car. Apparently the cost of the cheaper guy was the car.

I read the stories on the forum and comment. My wife will tell you my personal quote, "Restraint is my least recognized attribute."

In the 1950's and '60's shops used to screw up foreign cars all the time. OUR cars ARE the foreign cars of today. 25 years ago carburetors and distributors went away. Drum brakes, prefabricated lines? I had a car come in one time with a brake line coiled to make it the correct length. The owner told me the mechanic said you can't cut those lines.

Shops are grinding out standard repairs on ten year old cars with an average value of $4,000. They charge from $80 to $120 per hour in a place that would even look at our cars. Mechanics in larger shops are under pressure to upsell, that's where the service manager's commission comes from.

This is a Buick group on the AACA forum. Guess where the technical resources lie to keep your car running and to move through the refurbishing or restoration process. It is in your local chapter meeting and the resources of the clubs. You won't survive alone and even then you need to develop skills for your own independence. Then share your skills with others or sell the service.

If I went back into the collector car service business I would be at about $180 per hour. Don't forget, if I make a profit 40 to 50% of that goes to taxes and fees.

Learn the skills, work with friends, and enjoy the clubs or be skewered.

Bernie

Edited March 18, 2014 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[DualQuadDave]

In a similar vein, last fall I got a call from a person I did work for in the mid-1990's. His car was a non-Buick but popular collector car. I corrected a number of running issues as simple as replacing the distributor vacuum diaphragm to bypassing the tail light wires that had been welded into the metal repair around the wheel well. The car ran great and he let it be known that I charged far too much for my skills, the ones the other places he took the car first didn't have.

A few years later a charging problem developed (not my charging, the electrical system).

His call to me last year was for advice on his legal recourse because, for a few reasons, the other guy had left his car sit in a field for almost 10 years with racoons nesting through the open window. The car is pretty much a parts car. Apparently the cost of the cheaper guy was the car.

I read the stories on the forum and comment. My wife will tell you my personal quote, "Restraint is my least recognized attribute."

In the 1950's and '60's shops used to screw up foreign cars all the time. OUR cars ARE the foreign cars of today. 25 years ago carburetors and distributors went away. Drum brakes, prefabricated lines? I had a car come in one time with a brake line coiled to make it the correct length. The owner told me the mechanic said you can't cut those lines.

Shops are grinding out standard repairs on ten year old cars with an average value of $4,000. They charge from $80 to $120 per hour in a place that would even look at our cars. Mechanics in larger shops are under pressure to upsell, that's where the service manager's commission comes from.

This is a Buick group on the AACA forum. Guess where the technical resources lie to keep your car running and to move through the refurbishing or restoration process. It is in your local chapter meeting and the resources of the clubs. You won't survive alone and even then you need to develop skills for your own independence. Then share your skills with others or sell the service.

If I went back into the collector car service business I would be at about $180 per hour. Don't forget, if I make a profit 40 to 50% of that goes to taxes and fees.

Learn the skills, work with friends, and enjoy the clubs or be skewered.

Bernie

I agree, 150%! I am having exactly that experience in South Florida. Nobody knows how to work on old cars anymore or does not want to take the time to learn(not cost effective). I am getting more calls everyday to work other people's cars and I know a handful of shops left that do decent work and they are slammed. Price per hour is going up. It's hovering around $120hr currently, but foresee it going up due to demand.