Dry soot

[Guest btate]

My 55' Buick 264 nailhead spits out a lot of water with dry soot floating on top of the water. It always does this whether the rh is 45 to 70 per cent. It is not antifreeze and it is not oil. It is water and soot and the soot is dry as a bone. And not just a little but what I consider a good deal. Is this normal? I have seen water blow out the back exhaust but not every time with soot. This cannot be normal. By the way the choke seems to hold in forever, but the car will spit water and soot even if it has been driven a few miles( not as much) It does it upon start up and finally goes away. The car never smokes. What is this?

[Pete O]

Sounds kind of normal to me. Water is a by-product of gasoline combustion. Soot too. The accumulated water vapor in the muffler condenses as the muffler cools. When you start it up, the exhaust gases are blowing the water out of the muffler, and carrying away some of the soot as well.

[Guest btate]

Thanks Pet, I just do not remember any cars I have ever had that did that. My first car was a 55' chevy. second car 58' Corvette and many after that.

[old-tank]

Bill

If the choke is hanging closed for too long, that will contribute to excessive soot. The tube from the manifold to the choke housing should get hot in just a few minutes and the choke should be fully open before the coolant thermostat opens.

What is the gas mileage?

Willie

[JohnD1956]

Just guessing that in addition to running too rich with the choke, you should find that the Buick has a more agressive cam than the 55 Chevy, and at idle it is probably pulling more air/fuel mix into the cylinders which may tend to lead to higher carbon-soot output. Can't speak for this relative to the Corvette.

[Guest btate]

I may need to back off on the octane. I have been using 93 octane and it is 100% gasoline and it is running too rich. Willie, i have not yet checked the mileage but will try to do soon.

[avgwarhawk]

I run the lowest octane in my 264. Does not knock or ping. I average about 15-17 mpg on the highway with the 3 speed. Around town about 10 mpg or so. I get water at the tailpipe. It is normal. It also has some soot but not much really. The more I drive it the less soot is produces at the next start up. My choke will kick down in about a minute of warm up.

[60FlatTop]

Mine's like the one above, just much less soot 'cause its the delta wing warhawk model.

Bernie

[Guest btate]

Well low octane it is. I will see how the choke works with low octane but should not have anything to do with the ocatane. thanks Bill

[avgwarhawk]

The low octane will not have any effect on the choke and it's operation. The choke spring works on the principle of metals ability to contract and expand from cold or heat respectively. I would suspect your coil is whined a bit to tight. Like most of us.

[Guest btate]

Chris, today I move it cw to a leaner setting. Will give it a try tomorrow. I didn't move it much but noticed the butterfly valve is about 25per cent open. I may have moved it too far. Bill

[avgwarhawk]

This is where a choke angle gauge comes in handy. Let us know how it goes.

[Guest btate]

Chris, and all others, I just filled up with 87 octane (100% gas)( only needed 13.3 gallons, so some of the gas is 93 octane. When I got back from gas station, I looked in the service manual and it calls out "Premium" gas, So, would the book not be correct? This morning I noticed the choke did not come in play but car started very well. I drove it down to the service station to fill up with gas and when I got back in the car it took forever to start. I tried pumping the gas to barely pushing in the starter. It kept almost hitting but would not quite hit. The next time while in the mist of trying to hit I pushed the pedal on to the floor and it started. Upon starting this morning and choke not in play the water was spitting but no soot. I also noticed the service manual spells out gas tank capacity as 19 minimum !!! should that have been 19 max. I moved the choke about 2 notches toward the richer setting. I went too far yesterday toward lean.

[old-tank]

Bill

The service manual is referring to the available gas in 1955. I drove a Special many miles from 1962-1976 and never used premium. My first Century (1977) protested on regular and ran well on premium and got 19 mpg. Now even the Century will run well on regular or midgrade (hot weather), but now gets 15mpg.

To set the choke, the engine must be cold. Set the throttle on the fast idle cam or just hold it partly open while adjusting the choke until it is just closed. The engine should start easily and the choke should be cracked open slightly by the choke pull-off. The pipe to the choke should get hot real soon and the choke will slowly open and be fully open before the coolant thermostat opens. Even with no choke or one adjusted too lean, you should be able to start the engine by pumping the gas before starting (to enrich) and then feathering the gas pedal until it runs smoothly. Seems the worst time to shut off and then restart an engine after a few minutes is after driving a block or two: I have had the choke open while sitting and have a lean condition or other times it did not open and have rich or flooded condition....just gotta know your engine's idiosyncrasies.

Willie

[Guest btate]

Thanks Willie, I only drove about a mile to the service station. It is embarrassing to have several people coming up to you and tell what a great car and it will not start.

[Guest btate]

Willie, I left out the damper riser in the exhaust due to being in a mild climate. I wonder if that has anything that effects the choke?

[NTX5467]

The "damper" (i.e., "heat riser valve) is there for MORE than just cold starts. When the ambient air near the valve's thermostatic spring is cold, it closes the valve (as the choke thermostat does on the carburetor). As the exhaust manifold and ambient air heats up as the engine (exhaust manifold, air coming through the radiator, etc.), then the valve would open more until it was fully open. The diverted exhaust heat goes to the part of the intake manifold directly under the carburetor, where it helps evaporate the richer fuel mixture supplied by the carburetor, while the choke is still "on". Later, it performs a similar function which can allow for a generally leaner carburetor calibration than a similar "cold" manifold might provide to the cylinders.

NOW . . . many "hot rodders" blocked that heat passage in the desire of a "cooler mixture supplying a denser mixture to the cylinders". Or trying to delay "heat percolation" in the carburetor after stopping the engine after it's at operating temperature. I don't really know if these orientations are really as effective as many suspected, but it did remove heat sources from the intake manifold, for whatever good that might have done.

In ANY event, having the choke set to "best lean performance" position is the best way to head. Just rich enough to have good cold-start driveability and lean enough to not increase fuel consumption during "warm-up" periods. This CAN require some fine-tuning and "try it and see if it works" rather than blindly following the service manual, per se, as the choke thermostat springs have been observed to "tighten with age" (i.e., increase tension) so going a notch or so leaner in the basic setting on an older thermostat might really be where things need to be.

The "water and soot" are completely normal. The "water" is "condensate" formed as the hot exhaust gases contact the cooler exhaust pipe/muffler material. If you think YOUR car is "a producer", I've seen many late-model (including NEW) Toyotas that look like that after they have run a little bit, when you hit the throttle, they'll kick out about a CUP of condensate from the exhaust pipe. This CAN be minimized somewhat by drilling a small "1/64" drain hole" in the rear bottom of the muffler, so it'll drain out from there. Many OEM mufflers had these holes from the factory, including many current-production vehicles. Not big enough to cause an "exhaust leak", but big enough to let the water drain out as the vehicle idles or the engine is stopped.

I remember one winter, I watched a then-new 1963 Mercury Monterrey sedan produce a sooty puddle in the parking lot, as the owner had the engine running as his wife was in the grocery store . . . for about 15 minutes or so. Scientifically, it all made sense that it happened that way.

I wouldn't worry about the water, but would be concerned about getting the carb adjustments to the "best lean driveability" orientation . . . whether for cold-start or otherwise. Might take some tinkerin' to get to that point, though.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[old-tank]

Willie, I left out the damper riser in the exhaust due to being in a mild climate. I wonder if that has anything that effects the choke?

That will have nothing to do with the choke. One more trick on adjusting the choke: after moving the housing leaner or richer, tighten, tap lightly with a screwdriver handle and flip the choke blade a few times to settle everything down.

Willie

[avgwarhawk]

Btate,

I took two pictures at my tailpipe. Condensation/water. The engine was running about 1 minute when the picture was taken. A bit of soot. It used to be a bit more sooty but with working the engine regularly I do not see much soot.

Hope the video works. A little 264 thunder. Single exhaust. She sound meaty enough.

http://s133.photobucket.com/user/avgwarhawk/media/VIDEO0007_zps5519833b.mp4.html

Edited July 2, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[KAD36]

Out of curiosity, what heat range plugs are you using and what do they look like? Black sooty or gray tan? And what heat range? In the winter when I'd run it in the garage every so often, it would leave a black puddle that stained the garage floor and that just looked wrong to me. My plugs were pretty black, while not enough to foul them, that was a giveaway. When the car was in constant service my plugs were all a grey/tan. Leaner choke adjustment, hotter plugs, slight adjustment on timing and mixture and letting it warm up and run at a fast idle to get the condensation out and avoiding short runs cleaned mine up dramatically. Actually, my belief is the choke and running it more helped the most.

Edited July 2, 2013 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

Ken, I have the same experience. Running the car regularly just about eliminated the sooty puddles. Mostly water now. Not much as you can see in the pictures.

Not sure if your question on plugs and heat range was directed at me.

Edited July 2, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Guest btate]

Plugs are Autolite 75 set at .040 gap. I set gap a little more open due to having an MSD distributor. I am sure the plugs are black as can be, since I have started it up so many times and only a few block run at a time. I am going to do a another compression test soon and will pull plugs for inspection at that time. the picture showing water and soot is helps since mine looks just like it after about a minute. Thanks NTX for explanation on the damper. I hate to change to 87 octane from 93 octane, since the car has very little power but if that helps it run better, then I guess that is what I will run.

[avgwarhawk]

You are only throwing money away using 93 octane. As far as power, other than just above turtle speed the 264 is not a quarter mile monster. Blistering away from lights is not in the cards. However, it is very capable in today's traffic with little issue of keeping pace.

I was glad to see your water at the tailpipe is similar to what I experience.

[60FlatTop]

30 bucks invested in a set of AC 45's could make an amazing improvement; 45R's are OK. And set them at .035". Its just a cheap test and pretty much all I've used since the mid-'60's.

If I couldn't get AC's I would consider NGK's as an alternative. I've had a couple of v12 Jaguars and those plugs are friendly to fussy engines.

I did a major tune up on a '50 Buick straight eight a few years ago and went to the parts store with the original AC plug. I tossed it on the counter and asked them to open boxes until they found and NGK that looked like it. Don't remember the number but I was very happy with the results.

Autolites? They'll make your car run like a Plymouth.

Bernie

[KAD36]

NGK B6S and B5S work well in my Buick. The lower the number on an NGK, the hotter the plug, which is opposite of the ACs - on an AC the higher the number hotter the plug. I used to run R46 ACs because I couldn't find the 44s at the time - and decided when switching to solid core wires to try non-resistor plugs and rely on the resistor in the rotor and the condensers to clean up the radio - which didn't work so hot (a little ticking noise on the radio), but thats ok - its my poor mans tachometer. Too many ticks to keep count of = engine spinning fast. Ticks slow enough to count = engine spinning slow. After all, this is a Dynaflow and its a cruiser not a bruiser - we're not exactly rolling around 6000 rpm and pulling for 2nd :cool:... although in my late teens had the thrill of owning a 70 cutlass with a 455....

Am happy with the NGKs - had to bite my lip a little bit moving away from the AC Delcos as ACs are used in all my other vehicles.

If I might add one more note on cold carburetor adjustment - remember to check your fast idle speed. It should be..... fast. Like 1200-1500 rpm fast. Too low a speed as the choke comes full on will load up the plugs and she'll blow soot. Speed and mixture on a cold engine are a balance that count. Seems we all have our unique ways of setting chokes. Mine is set so after about a minute or so by tapping the throttle it comes off the high cam - I don't drop it in gear at 1500. Personally, the 2197 has been a durable carburetor once set up right. I rebuilt mine 25 years ago and really no issues to speak of, other than scaring the crap out of me with all the little parts that landed on the newspaper. I probably couldn't do it twice.

And on the 93 octane - that was in my tank all the time, and from trusted advice on the board backed down to 89, and sometimes mix 87. My vapor lock frequency also diminished using the lower octane. My timing is around 7-8 deg advance (at the edge of the indicator) and no detonation - however, realize my compression is also down in the 130 psi range +/- 3 psi across all 8 cylinders because some knucklehead dealer put low compression gaskets on the heads back in the 80s and my rings are a little worn.

Runs like a top these nailheads.

Chris - that soot puddle in my garage - looks like somebody dumped a couple ounces of paint on the floor. Yours looks good!

Edited July 3, 2013 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Autolites? They'll make your car run like a Plymouth.

Bernie

Good heavens! Are we talking 426HEMI, 413 MAX Wedge, 440 6-Barrel, 340 . . . or a 1955 Flathead 6-cylinder?

From what I've found, it seems that NGKs are more efficient transferers of electrical energy than other brands of spark plugs. ONE thing to remember, though, is that their heat range numbers run BACKWARDS from how other brands of spark plugs do their heat range numbers! NGK higher heat range numbers = colder heat range, NGK lower heat range numbers = warmer heat range . . . as other brands of spark plugs heat range numbers indicate hotter heat ranges with higher heat range numbers.

There probably are some who'd disagree, which I fully understand, but I stopped using AC Spark Plugs in Dad's Chevy pickup after I happened to "win" a Magic Santa award (which was a $20.00 gift certificate to the local Ford dealership). ONLY thing I could think of that I might want ended up being a set of spark plugs, after I'd done the work to determine which heat range crossed with AC 44s (which I was cleaning and gapping about every 6 mohths). I gapped the Motorcraft spark plugs to .035", put a drop of motor oil on the threads, and installed them. Then, about 8 months later, I realized I hadn't done my maintenance with the spark plugs! I pulled a few out, checked the gap, and visually inspected them. I put them back in with NO changes! That was when my orientation toward AC Spark Plugs started to become solidified.

Later, when I got my new '77 Camaro, with HEI ignition, I figured I'd look at the plugs after about 30K miles or so. "Normal wear", so I gapped them and put them back in. Later, I got some Motorcraft plugs and put in it . . . AFTER I discovered that some of my friends had had similar results from replacing the AC plugs in their Chevies, as I'd had years earlier. I also went ONE heat range colder, in the cross-over, so I could add a few more degrees of timing without putting the spark plug's tip into a "too warm" condition (with associated wear and other issues).

One time, I screwed-up my courage and bought a set of Split-Fires (back when they were the reputed "best plug on the market"). THAT was a mistake, other than the cost! I went back to my trusty Motorcraft plugs, gladly.

In our Chryslers, I always used Champions as they were OEM and did work well in those engines. Motorcrafts worled well in them, too. As did the later NGK V-Power plugs.

IF you can find the old Petersen Publications "Ignition Annual", circa 1965, it has some very good information in it. That's where I first learned of the "J-Gap" plug, which was strictly a "racing spark plug" back then. Later, when I found an NGK spark plug informational flyer at a local Toyota parts counter, I realized that much of what I'd believed about spark plug gap designs was not quite right . . . things which the V-Power orientation addressed and changed . . . a change that worked better than the Nippondenso/Accel U-Groove plug did.

When I learned what "J-gap" was and why it was significant, I would spend a Sunday afternoon converting a set of Champions for our '66 Chrysler to that configuration . . . with a point file. Later, I used some diagonal cutters to speed things up. I could feel a difference in throttle response and off-idle torque.

Ooops! Too many "speed scrects"!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[carbking]

I didn't see it mentioned, but the snow-white tailpipe of yesteryear which was the mark of a well-tuned car was very simply....................lead!

Now that thankfully the gasoline is lead-free, the soot (which was always there) is now what one sees in the tailpipe.

When the engine is started, water condensation in the exhaust is heavier than the hot exhaust when the car was previously shut off, and washes some of the soot from the tailpipe (normal).

A vehicle that sees mostly highway driving will exhibit less soot at startup because the higher exhaust velocity will keep the tailpipe more free of soot than a vehicle that sees only in-town, idle or parade use.

Jon.

[avgwarhawk]

Chris - that soot puddle in my garage - looks like somebody dumped a couple ounces of paint on the floor. Yours looks good!

It was not always like that. I have found that running the car weekly and some drive time keep the nailhead happy.

[trp3141592]

Hi,

btate said,

Chris, and all others, I just filled up with 87 octane (100% gas)( only needed 13.3 gallons, so some of the gas is 93 octane.

I am insanely jealous of your locale's availability of real gasoline! All we have here is 10% ethanol-laced fuel, and my LaSalle won't run on it--it boils out in the fuel pump settling bowl and kills the engine with vapor.

I am working on solutions, but having real gas available would solve it.

--Tom

[Guest btate]

Tom, I think you can google 100% gas in your city and maybe find it. Bill