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MarkV

Soon to be Collectable Front Wheel Drive Vehicles

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:D:D:D:D

My Current fleet of "un-collectibles":

1984 Cadillac Seville Elegante

1987 Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo

1988 Buick Reatta

1988 Cadillac Seville Elegante

1989 Cadillac Allante

1990 Buick Reatta

1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special

1994 Pontiac Trans Sport

Feel free to be dismissive, but any one of the above will cruise at 80+ all day long with full comfort, good gas mileage (~2000 RPM @70MPH) and if I get in a wreck at speed I won't have a pointy chrome steering column shoved through me.:eek:

Of course anything after 1996 is complete garbage. :roll eyes: /S

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Though a lot of older cars have these qualities too, it may be the advances in safety that help make these 80s cars collectable. These cars really helped to usher in efi and a lot of engine qualities for fuel efficiency. Bye-bye carbs pretty much.

And I don't think these cars were designed to be 'disposable' as was mentioned, it's just people had some disposable income then and everyone wanted to have the new car on the block. And then the affordable, still runs for another 30,000 without doing much but adding oil as it burns, used cars get bought up by kids. By a car for $500, throw on a turbo and new exhaust to juice up the horsies and have fun. Ever see those videos on youtube? 1989 Civic EX smokes Camaro, 1986 Toyota Celica outruns Interceptor...pretty cool when you've got a 4 cyl.,16 valve supercharged sleeper and can mess with the old 'untouchables' between red lights at the beach!

And I think that we're all missing a big, BIG reason cars get cool...GIRLS!

I like VW's Scirocco...had an 85 in 95. Got it for $600. Easy to work on, etc. I'd buy it right back and swap a vr6 into it right now!

Edited by dminer (see edit history)

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Be it FWD or RWD there will not be near as many future collectible vehicles as in the past but there will be more than many would expect. Just to name a few in my opinion: the GTO, Pulse, Tesla, Aztec with the tent accessory, Volt, Roush / Salen products, Bonneville’s with the turbocharged Northstar engine, special edition Corvettes, Centurion trucks, certain model high horsepower Cadillac’s, Pontiac G6 / G8 with the Northstar engine, etc, etc.

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I think that the statement, that the likes and dislikes of car people is narrow mindedness, is unfair and incorrect. I stated my preferences as to which cars I prefer.

There are ways of stating one's own preferences without trashing other people's. There are a few examples in this thread of people choosing not to take those ways.

By definition, the AACA is supposed to be "big tent" - multi-marque, multi-decade, not always top of the line vehicles. It amuses me to see the constant mantra in Antique Automobile and in various meetings of "we have to get more young people into the hobby", when it seems that some on this forum would verbally trash a younger person's pride and joy if he or she showed up to a meet with it.

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A lot of narrow minds...not sure if it is ignorance, or some just enjoy being "the jerk"??

I agree with J3...keep trying to attract new, YOUNG members with such attitudes.

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Well I think as long as a car is stock (or close to it) I think it needs to be accepted as long as it is over 25 years old. I think the most amazing thing is when you see a 1987 model and it has low mileage and has been well taken care of. I always figure the collectable cars will be taken care of and restored but to see one that is not so collectable is a great site!

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The original question: "What FWD vehicles do you think will be worth picking up?"

The question never was related to younger individuals being attracted to the hobby or whether FWD vehicles in general should be considered "collectible." Just as with makes there are people that revere FWD vehicles and those who for one reason or another detest them. Will or are any of them be worth picking up picking up now? Who the heck knows?

"Worth" implies the gaining of value or at least not loosing money from money invested, factors that are impossible to predict given the "youthful" age of FWD vehicles and many of those who are accustomed to them. On the other hand, few cars of any nature appreciate sufficiently over time to consider them a viable investment with most usually ending up with more invested in a 25+ year old car than they'll ever realize out of it.

It is safe to say at this point the forum participants have not identified any significant number of brands or models of FWD vehicles in response to the original question. Somewhat telling!

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There are ways of stating one's own preferences without trashing other people's. There are a few examples in this thread of people choosing not to take those ways.

Since you chose to quote me, I have to respond. I never trashed anyone's car or their preferences. I simply stated that I don't like most cars built after a certain era. I also don't like liver, rap music, opera or 350 lb women in Spandex pants. For those who do like these things, good for you. I do not think that my likes or dislikes are better than yours, just better for me. In the end, that's what matters, do what makes you happy. Late model (to me) FWD cars make me sad;)

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Just came home from the 2012 Auto Show (new cars). The AACA has a display on the main floor this year and it was so crowded you had a hard time getting to see the old cars.

Lots of kids of all ages with their parents and/or grandparents (I guess it's spring school break here).

Didn't look to me that there was any shortage of young people lusting over FWD or RWD cars. Plenty of kids ohhing and ahhhing at the AACA display, which included a very cool 1909 Luverne touring car.

Edited by ken bogren (see edit history)

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I never trashed anyone's car or their preferences.

And I didn't say you did ...

... in fact, I chose your response because you weren't nasty.

:)

Edited by j3studio (see edit history)

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And I didn't say you did ...

... in fact, I chose your response because you weren't nasty.

:)

No problem. Sometimes the meanings get lost in the translation. You can't see sarcasm, good natured rib poking and other silly behaviors over the net. I guess that what the emoticons are for:D:confused:;):eek:

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The original question: "What FWD vehicles do you think will be worth picking up?"

The question never was related to younger individuals being attracted to the hobby or whether FWD vehicles in general should be considered "collectible." Just as with makes there are people that revere FWD vehicles and those who for one reason or another detest them. Will or are any of them be worth picking up picking up now? Who the heck knows?

"Worth" implies the gaining of value or at least not loosing money from money invested, factors that are impossible to predict given the "youthful" age of FWD vehicles and many of those who are accustomed to them. On the other hand, few cars of any nature appreciate sufficiently over time to consider them a viable investment with most usually ending up with more invested in a 25+ year old car than they'll ever realize out of it.

It is safe to say at this point the forum participants have not identified any significant number of brands or models of FWD vehicles in response to the original question. Somewhat telling!

I'll bite, covering the 1980s only:

1988-1989 Buick Reatta

1980-1985 Buick Riviera (I prefer the T-Types, but the convertibles certainly have their fans)

1980-1985 Cadillac Eldorado (Biarritz, convertible, Biarritz convertible :) )

1987-1989 Cadillac Allante (though the final 1993 version with the Northstar engine seems most wanted)

1987-1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z

1984-1986 Dodge Omni GLH

1986-1989 Ford Taurus (1989 Taurus SHO stands out)

1984-1986 Honda Civic CR-X

1980-1985 Oldsmobile Toronado

1983-1989 Pontiac 6000STE

1983-1984 Volkswagon Rabbit GTI

Edited by j3studio (see edit history)

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"Worth" implies the gaining of value or at least not loosing money from money invested,

Not in this hobby. There are so many reasons people own old/collector cars beyond cash value that increasing or decreasing cash value is probably not even in the top 5 or 10, unless the "hobbiest" is actually just in the "hobby" for the money.

Edited by ken bogren (see edit history)

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As far as "investments", you've just got to pick your targets on that. AND see how much of the work you can do yourself. This can be where the lower level trim models can come out good . . . not much optional stuff to chase, especially chrome trim, rather than the top trim level models with lots of "wear items" to chase.

Sometimes, I think we get a little too uptight about prices of things. Of course, "economic viability" is important, but I suspect we've all seen people spend lots of money on a vehicle that we all know will never be worth the investment, but then it's usually on a vehicle that nobody's seen in many years. And, sometimes, you pickup a price guide and are amazed at the price that vehicle is now listed at. Another . . . "You never know . . ." situation.

When the VW Rabbits and GTIs were new, they were neat cars. Same with some of the similar Audi coupes. Subarus always had a following in ski and snow country, before they got trendy and more popular, but they also built some performance coupes that for which the work "unique" did not do them justice.

Only thing with used cars is that you've got to watch out for the "trim shop option kits" (add-on fabric-covered fiberglass roof caps) with fancy nameplates on them. Whether the car is fwd, rwd, or awd. As always, know what you're buying.

To each their own. I know that rwd and fwd have their own benefits. But as long as at least ONE wheel (or pair thereof) whether rwd or fwd, will leave rubber on the ground, that's always a plus! But, as in the case of a '96 Grand Marquis I rented one time, the mighty 4.6L OHC V-8 would NOT even spin the wheels in loose dirt (after I found the traction control and turned it off!). It did good to get 25mpg on the highway at 65mph, too! But, later model years were much better (power-wise). A plain jane Buick Regal LS or LeSabre 3.8L V-6 would have left that Mercury in the dust!

The "flip front" Buick LeSabres and Park Avenues of the later 1980s were really neat and nice cars--period! Even get them with tachometer and gauges, too! Later, after the first model year, the Park Avenue Ultra came standard with the supercharged 3800 V-6. Incredibly nice cars with luxury in the Traditional American Motorcar orientation! These cars, when new, had very few problems and if you can find a nice one now, it'll be worth whatever you might need to pay for it. It'll always attract attention when you open the hood, other than the Buick logo silkscreened onto the hood insulator pad. The whole model series back then were incredibly nice cars--period. Nice size, decent power and great fuel economy, comfortable, quiet, and classy looks. And that fancy leather interior on the Park Avenues!!! (How's that for a specific recommendation, Jim?)

Enjoy!

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)

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I tried to sell my Park Ave. Ultra in 95. Beautiful car, every option, low miles, no issues. Advertised it on various sites and papers. Not one single bite. I traded it in on a Toyota and got 1800 bucks for it

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I'll bite, covering the 1980s only:

1988-1989 Buick Reatta

1980-1985 Buick Riviera (I prefer the T-Types, but the convertibles certainly have their fans)

1980-1985 Cadillac Eldorado (Biarritz, convertible, Biarritz convertible :) )

1987-1989 Cadillac Allante (though the final 1993 version with the Northstar engine seems most wanted)

1987-1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z

1984-1986 Dodge Omni GLH

1986-1989 Ford Taurus (1989 Taurus SHO stands out)

1984-1986 Honda Civic CR-X

1980-1985 Oldsmobile Toronado

1983-1989 Pontiac 6000STE

1983-1984 Volkswagon Rabbit GTI

The majority of cars on this list are now 25+ year old antiques. Yet how many car shows do you see any of them at? Not just AACA shows, but any show. I see Reattas and Allantes at shows. But really not any of the others. Even 1979-85 Eldorado, Riviera, and Toronado which were extremely well received when new, don't show up very often. Even with the high production of Tauruses and Pontiac 6000's, I do not see any at shows. There are, however, a lot of post 1980 Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes. Even newer Chrysler 300's and Dodge Chargers and Challengers show up at shows more frequently than any of the cars on this list.

I have even been to many Cadillac shows where they show through the 1990's - current. The only ones that show up in any significant number post 1980 are the rwd Cadillac Broughams and the Allantes. Even the unique 1980-85 Seville doesn't show up much. The Allante is unique as a 2 seater, and many consider the Brougham the last "real" Cadillac. And even these are always nice original cars because you could buy 3 or 4 for much less than a full restoration on one. So I just don't see post 1985 Sevilles and fwd DeVilles becoming hugely popular anytime soon, even with Northstar engines.

Edited by LINC400 (see edit history)

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We think of many of these these cars as dull to drive and cookie-cutter similar to look at. But someday they're going to look quaint. Few people will want them as daily drivers, but they'll be fun to take to an ice-cream shop or a pizza parlor. And some folks will take them on tours of similar-performing cars.

Look at the Model T. The ones in the early 20's couldn't have been more plain-Jane or obsolete even when they were new, and everything else you could buy was faster, fancier and probably safer. In the mid-30s you could hardly give one away. But they have a HUGE following today, with two national clubs and activities every weekend all over North America, Australia, New Zealand and Europe. The last Model T was built 85 years ago, so while the average T enthusiast is not young, he's not reliving his youth. I'm 75. I grew up in an a fairly upscale part of the country where I hardly ever saw a Model T, and I always wanted to have a Packard dual-cowl phaeton or a Duesenberg. Guess what, guys. The Packard and the Duesy ain't gonna happen; not enough significant figures in my bank balance. But I love my 99-year-old Model T and drive it - carefully! - all over the place. And no, I don't remember it from my younger days, and I sure as blazes didn't buy it new!

Do I want an ordinary car from the 80s? Nope. Not the slightest interest. Neither as a driver nor as a collector. But someday, some people will want them. Most will, by then, have been junked. But a few will have been treated kindly and will still be in nice shape, and they will be sought out. Which ones? Well, the Reattas and Allantes will command more money, and many Citations will be stripped for parts, but there will be a market for all of them. I just don't expect to be around to see it.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

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Gil- Well I wish I could drive a Model T daily out here in CA! But, I would be killed! Here we have to drive hundreds of miles a week on busy and crowded roads and freeways! But, to answer your response the 1980's cars and up are still in high use due to their fuel economy (at least most models). This helps to contribute to the lesser number of good quality ones out there, because most are driven into the ground, unlike many cars from the 1970's and before. Say from 1985 and up, the cars are reasonably good on gas and parts still readily available so, people drive them and abuse them and when they need something they dont buy it because 'it is not worth it'. I have never done this with any of my cars. This will seem funny to most, but, the 1988 Corsica that I have with 79k on it has undergone a restoration. It was purchased from the original owner, and my friend did a few things to it when he owned it, but, I have done the majority. Which included everything from a new rack and pinion to a new and correct factory steering wheel, factory correct radio (from the horrible cd player that my friend put in) and even the window crank and hubcaps had to be correct! and I had the windshield replaced and ac repaired. I recently put a new hood on and had it painted (the old one became bent because of the placement of the old prop rod). This may seem crazy to go to all of this work to fix a 25 year old economy car worth about $1500! But, I like it and it is clean and has low mileage and has been worth every cent (especially now with gas prices being the way they are!). Of course I love my Continentals and the D-19 and the 490 touring car. But, this car has a use and it is a nice driving car. I have even semi retired my 3 year newer lesabre due to the gas prices (I drive around the city 5 out of 7 days per week and it can only get about 20-23 mpg when I drive a typical week, but, out on the highway I get 26 mpg!) and with 25-30 combined MPG on my Corsica I cant go wrong. I will still use the Lesabre on road trips and to fill in if something happens to the Corsica, but, while the gas prices (4.50 in CA) are outrageous I will be driving the old Corsica!

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The majority of cars on this list are now 25+ year old antiques. Yet how many car shows do you see any of them at? Not just AACA shows, but any show. I see Reattas and Allantes at shows. But really not any of the others. Even 1979-85 Eldorado, Riviera, and Toronado which were extremely well received when new, don't show up very often. Even with the high production of Tauruses and Pontiac 6000's, I do not see any at shows. There are, however, a lot of post 1980 Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes. Even newer Chrysler 300's and Dodge Chargers and Challengers show up at shows more frequently than any of the cars on this list.

I have even been to many Cadillac shows where they show through the 1990's - current. The only ones that show up in any significant number post 1980 are the rwd Cadillac Broughams and the Allantes. Even the unique 1980-85 Seville doesn't show up much. The Allante is unique as a 2 seater, and many consider the Brougham the last "real" Cadillac. And even these are always nice original cars because you could buy 3 or 4 for much less than a full restoration on one. So I just don't see post 1985 Sevilles and fwd DeVilles becoming hugely popular anytime soon, even with Northstar engines.

I don't know that one should judge the cars in question future present or desirability on the basis of what one may see at brand club specific or local general car shows. Brand club activities are a bit of what the AACA is about but not restrictive on age of vehicles; they are more about brand appreciation than anything else. Local charity shows are usually open to just about anything with wheels and the organizations holding them are usually just thankful to see a variety cars, old and newer, and enough cars showing up that they have a show.

In our local area charity fund raiser car shows are more supported by the street rodder clubs, and even low ridder clubs than any of the brand clubs and a few of us show up with restored vehicles from times past. In this case it's all about geography and there being no brand specific clubs within 75 to 100 miles.

Edited by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

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Wes - Last month I was at the HCCA annual convention in LA. We had a great time and were bused to some fine collections, like Nethercutt and Mullin. But the traffic, at any hour of the day, on both freeways and city streets, was appalling. You're right - it would be suicidal to drive a Model T there. But I wouldn't want to drive anything else there, either. I'm glad I don't have to!

And, while I drive my model T a lot, it's not really a daily driver. I've been caught in the rain many times, but if I'm not on a car tour and the weather looks unpromising, I go modern. And, with gas lights and no turn signals, I'm careful to be home by dark. And I avoid cities, Interstates, and places with heavy traffic. I enjoy the car (and my other brass-era cars), but selectively. I'm dying to drive a brass-era car, but I don't want to die driving a brass-era car. The syntaxes of those two expressions are different!

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

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I'm dying to drive a brass-era car, but I don't want to die driving a brass-era car.

:)

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Gil-This will seem funny to most, but, the 1988 Corsica that I have with 79k on it has undergone a restoration.

___________________________________________________________

Was wondering about a couple of things on the restoration; Was it hard to find engine and transaxle parts? When you painted the car did you remove the engine/transaxle as a assembly with the ft suspension to be able to get to the engine bay for painting? If I'm not mistaken Corsica shares parts with Beretta?

D.

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This will seem funny to most, but, the 1988 Corsica that I have with 79k on it has undergone a restoration. It was purchased from the original owner, and my friend did a few things to it when he owned it, but, I have done the majority. Which included everything from a new rack and pinion to a new and correct factory steering wheel, factory correct radio (from the horrible cd player that my friend put in) and even the window crank and hubcaps had to be correct! and I had the windshield replaced and ac repaired. I recently put a new hood on and had it painted (the old one became bent because of the placement of the old prop rod). This may seem crazy to go to all of this work to fix a 25 year old economy car worth about $1500! But, I like it and it is clean and has low mileage and has been worth every cent

Sounds like it has had a lot of repairs. But I would not call that undergoing a restoration. A restoration involves complete bodywork and repainting the entire car, all new upholstery, rechroming (if applicable), plus rebuilding or repairing mechanical components. As much as you like your Corsica, I don't think you would have bought it if it needed all of that when you could get 4 nice ones for what it would probably cost for all of that if not more. It is not even worth doing that to most 1970's and even some 1960's cars. So I really don't see too many people pulling a 1980's car out of a junkyard or barn and doing a full restoration on them anytime soon. That is not to say no one has ever done it. But it is a common occurrence with 1900-50's cars. I just don't see it happening to many post 1980 cars anytime soon.

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First and second generation Volkswagen Rabbits/Golf's, Jetta's, etc. Mighty fine cars, I own a few, and they last longer without rust-out then their competition. Mechanicals and such are superior also. The '85 jetta has 300,000 plus on the original drive train without anything other then a head gasket and 2 clutch replacements. The '84 Rabbit is almost broken in at 190,000 miles with 1 clutch replacement. Maybe its just me, but then again maybe it quality from Wolfsburg. HPOF here we come!!!:)

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Here's another response. The 1980 Grand National First Volkswagen Rabbit mentioned earlier in this forum discussion is one of the most accurately restored cars at an AACA National Meet as are the majority of restored Volkswagen manufactured vehicles that are shown at AACA meets. :D

So are the 80ty's front wheel drive cars worth saving/restoring, and showing at AACA events? Of course they are. They are automotive history.

;)I imagine the same question gets asked for each new decade that starts a 25 year cycle?:cool:

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