Share My Experience

[ChryslerMike25]

Hello Car Buffs

My grandfather and father restored many cars and were life members of the Gettysburg Region. The last car they did together was a 1925 Chrysler Phaeton. As a kid I even got to help wet sand. Today the car is mine and I had a two year professional restoration completed in time for Hershey this fall. The last time the car was shown at Hershey was in 1972. I was excited and proud to being showing at Hershey again. My dad even made it to Hershey in his wheel chair. He drove the car from the judging field with tears in his eyes as this was the first he had driven the car since his father passed on in 1974.

The restoration company I chose is very respected and the owners are all Senior judges and very active in the AACA. I was excited to embrace this fine organization, become active and maybe even enter judging school. Funny is that several in my local region call me "boy" and heck I am 50.

Well, after my day at Hershey, I just about tore up my membership card and swore never to attend any AACA functions again. I was so disappointed and fustrated with the entire process. I still am.

The Team Judge was RUDE. The judge judging the engine actually asked if I could open the other hood panel, but both were already open. They asked a few questions, but didn't spend much time at my car. So at the Awards Dinner I got a Second Junior. I have since written and gotten my highlighted judging form. Oh My God.

I remember my grandfather and father telling stories of the political nature of the judging and the lack of judging discipline. Well, grandfather, nothing has changed in 40 years.

I have since made investigations as has my restoration firm. Instructions given and comments made at the judges breakfast which have filterd out are disappointing at most. It appears judging is much like playing poker. Dealer's choice and rules change with the dealers.

I am still puzzeled as how cars in my same class from prior years could win First Junior and Senior Awards when restored with chrome and not nickel. If the rules or interpratation of the rules change, these changes need to be made public so all are aware. I just belive the current state of judging and judging professionalism is lacking. This experience has tarnished my entire zeal for the car restoration hobby. I renewed my memebrship for 2012, but still may withdrawl from the organization. My local Region is hosting the Eastern Spring Meet and needs help, but I am so disheartened that I am pondering not to even regster my car or help with the show. I think it best that I may just go look at cars and keep my car for pleasure and rememberance.

These are my first experiences with the Club and I am sorry that my experiences were not fond experiences. My view of the AACA is very tarnished. I wish the club luck in attracting more and younger members.

Mike

[msmazcol]

Sorry for your negative experience. A second junior is not the award anyone really wants to hear announced at the awards dinner. I've felt it myself. As my older and wiser parents said that night one of two things will happen now. Either you will never show your vehicle on a AACA show field or you can dig your cleats in and go for it. Since my disappointing second award we dug in and made a 1st junior, a senior, and two nominations for national awards.

Let the frustration calm down and be the kind of guy that digs in and get it.

The AACA always admits the system is not perfect but is truly one of the better games in town.

Best of luck.

[ChryslerMike25]

Thank you sir. I have yet to be encouraged to advance to the next level. I was going to dig in and move forward, but have you ever seen a truely beutiful car in nickel? I'm not changing my car finishes to nasty nickel and as such have no hope of ever winning my first jr. So I think I will focus my time again to reading on the beach.

Mike

[Shop Rat]

My advice would be to send a detailed letter to the VP of Class Judging, Herb Oakes, and outline what your experience was. He can then track down who the Team Captain was and who the Field Judges were and look at the ratings that the Team Captain gave his, or her, Field Judges and the rating that the Field Judges gave their Team Captain and pursue finding out what happened that you had such a negative experience.

I have sent Herb's mailed address to you by PM.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I believe the owner just admitted that all of his bright work was done in chrome rather than nickle? That alone could easily make the difference between a First and a Second, especially at Hershey.

[R W Burgess]

Is your car similar to this one, Mike?

This is the 1926 Chrysler on the show field in Hershey this year.

Wayne

[Chris Bamford]

...have you ever seen a truely beutiful car in nickel? I'm not changing my car finishes to nasty nickel...

Yes. Many.

And I've seen countless teens and '20s cars that I, personally, felt were diminished by their chrome-plated brightwork.

Your car, your choice.

Did your restoration firm recommend chrome plating instead of nickle and/or suggest chrome would be acceptable in AACA judging?

[Bob Hill]

You dont know how the other cars scored overall other than they got a 1st Junior. BTW, Hershey is probably the hardest place to win a 1st Junior because there are so many crs that you stand a chance of being "high pointed" and getting a second even with a car scoring 365 or more.

[Shop Rat]

Straight from the pages of the 2011 Offical Judging Guidelines.

Page 1

C. GENERAL POLICY

The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging. The end result of the accurate and

honest evaluation of a vehicle by a judging

team will be the proper determination

of the deserved award for the owner’s efforts.

Page 2

2. There shall be no penalty or premium

for over-restoration. Over-restoration and nonauthentic

restoration are not the same.

Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss

than original paint would be considered

over-restoration.

Chrome plating or varnishing

a part which was originally painted

would be considered

non-authentic restoration,

and the vehicle would receive the

appropriate point deduction

on the judging form.

It is every owner(s) right to do what they want regarding restoring any vehicle they have. But there are point deductions for incorrect/non-authentic restoration when that/those vehicles are shown at a National AACA Meet.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[ChryslerMike25]

Good Morning Wayne

That is my car. This picture was taken after judging was completed.

[Bob Hill]

Thank you sir. I have yet to be encouraged to advance to the next level. I was going to dig in and move forward, but have you ever seen a truely beutiful car in nickel? I'm not changing my car finishes to nasty nickel and as such have no hope of ever winning my first jr. So I think I will focus my time again to reading on the beach.

Mike

If I understand this correctly, you car is supposed to be nickle and you have it as chrome? If so, the fault of you not winning a first is NOT the judging teams - it is yours.

I get a little upset when folks want to do things the way they want them and then get ticked when they can't get by with it. if you want a 1st Junior, resotre the car correctly. If you don't, stop blaming everyone else.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Bob Hill (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Beautiful car, Mike. We'll be featuring a 1926 Series 60 six-cylinder phaeton in the next issue of Antique Automobile. I really appreciate the tasteful colors you chose, and the fact that you have used black sidewall tires. I especially love your period-looking use of lights for turn signals. (I'm assuming they're turn signals, but I like them because they look like they're correct for the car.)

As mentioned, the judging system is not perfect, but outside of a marque-specific judging system, it's the best game in town. I personally think the car is the trophy, and you've got yourself one heck of a nice looking trophy whether you ever show it again or not. I hope you do. In my opinion, it's more fun to enter the car with "Do Not Judge," but I understand that it's always nice to have it judged especially after a full restoration.

I'm a lover of the nickel plating over chrome, and there is a way to do chrome plating to make it look like nickel. I'm not sure what the process is, but it can be done. With my little knowledge of the plating system, I think what they do is let the nickel plating tarnish slightly before doing the final chrome dip.

Edited December 22, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[ChryslerMike25]

Yes Bob I am aware that nickel is correct. My question and the reason for my concern is how other cars in my class that have been chrome and not nickel have gotten Senior Awards? When did the rules change and when did stricter enforcemet apply to the nickel versus chrome? If this is the enfored rules for 2011, then that needs to be communicated either in the rule book or in a communication to the membership.

Have a wonderful Holiday.

Mike

[Bob Hill]

Yes Bob I am aware that nickel is correct. My question and the reason for my concern is how other cars in my class that have been chrome and not nickel have gotten Senior Awards? When did the rules change and when did stricter enforcemet apply to the nickel versus chrome? If this is the enfored rules for 2011, then that needs to be communicated either in the rule book or in a communication to the membership.

Have a wonderful Holiday.

Mike

The rules never changed - the judging got more correct IMO. IMHO, the cars before should have never received a 1st Junior if they had chrome plating vs. nickel.

It is like saying - I know speeding is against the law but my other friends speed and never get a ticket then complaining about being stopped and ticketed.

Not trying to be harsh but I have had two cars go through (and win) in AACA judging. I knew what the rules were and was determined to make my cars as correct as possible. Had I had an item that was incorrect, I would have to accept not winning if the item was the cause.

You don't like nickel and that is fine. My 29 Model A has nickle and yes it is not as shiny as chrome but if I wanted a Senior Award, it had to be nickel - even if cars with chrome had somehow passed earlier.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Bob Hill (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

It may be that the vehicles you have seen have had the chroming done after the award was won.

It does boil down to you chose to have what should have been nickel plated chromed. That is your right. But there is a penalty to be paid for incorrect restoration in the AACA venue.

[R W Burgess]

Well Mike, here's another picture of your car, you and your passenger entering the show field.

I guess you're wondering how I managed to take all of these pictures? I have about 10 of your car by the way.

Actually, my wife Gloria, just purchased an exact copy of your car in a local restaurant museum in Virginia, same color, model 70, the works. Imagine my surprise when I saw your car turn down the show field aisle. I have the original picture that I posted earlier as my desk top picture. It's an incentive to get cracking on restoring ours.

Thanks so much for bringing your Chrysler to Hershey. As West said, it means the world to folks like us to see such a wonderful restoration.

Wayne Burgess

[Restorer32]

With point judging, depending on the quality of the competition on the day, a car could easily win a First with chrome instead of nickle if all other aspects of the restoration were correct. In my humble opinion a Second is quite good under the circumstances. The rest of your car must have been quite nice. Beings it was Hershey I'm sure there were some very high scoring cars in your class. With competition like that it doesn't take much of a deduction to drop you from a First to a Second. In the 15 or so years I have judged we have always deducted for chrome where nickle was original.

[BMW1939]

Restorer, you are certainly right when you suggest that a vehicle can win a First and have incorrect plating. Within perhaps the last five years two motorcycles from the teens have won their First and Senior Awards and gone on to receive National Awards and both have chrome brightwork. I understand very well how the AACA judging system works, but it still seems odd that plating can matter in one situation and not another....

[trimacar]

Aww, come on guys and gals....chrome has replace nickel for years... I don't agree, just an observation...

And Susan, the copy of the judging rules posted, to me that just confuses the issue.

"There shall be no penalty or premium

for over-restoration." But over restored is not the way they came from the factory, and chrome has been accepted for years on just about anything 1920 and up, nickel has a lot of character, but the "shine" is what people want....and I'd be willing to bet a lot of judges these days are looking for the shine.....would like to be proved wrong

"Over-restoration and nonauthentic

restoration are not the same.

Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss

than original paint would be considered

over-restoration." OK, now let's be real here....many early cars came with fantastic factory finishes, lacquer that's been sanded and made beautiful......and now there's base coat and clear coat that's judged and acceptable? And, for example, the Model A class..the fenders were DIPPED in black paint, correct? How many Model A's have won Senior awards with dipped fenders?

"Chrome plating or varnishing

a part which was originally painted

would be considered

non-authentic restoration,

and the vehicle would receive the

appropriate point deduction

on the judging form." Yes, a chrome plated valve cover on a 1927 Chevrolet would be silly, but this does NOT address the issue of chrome plating things that were originally nickel.

Guess I sound argumentative, and you also have to put my comments in the category of "a guy who doesn't get his cars judged". Just my opinion.

[Shop Rat]

Aww, come on guys and gals....chrome has replace nickel for years... I don't agree, just an observation...

It doesn't matter if any of us disagree with the rules as far as what they are in a current year. The rules are the rules, as judges and Team Captains we obey the rules and judge according to them.

If folks do not not agree then they need to either band together and present a case that the AACA will feel has merit and get the rules changed, or show their vehicles as is and take their chances, or enjoy their vehicles as they see fit without showing them at National AACA Meets and not rant against the rules of the AACA.

And Susan, the copy of the judging rules posted, to me that just confuses the issue.

"There shall be no penalty or premium

for over-restoration." But over restored is not the way they came from the factory, and chrome has been accepted for years on just about anything 1920 and up, nickel has a lot of character, but the "shine" is what people want....and I'd be willing to bet a lot of judges these days are looking for the shine.....would like to be proved wrong

Explain how you feel that chrome has been accepted? Not according to the rules. Just because a vehicle got an award does not mean the chrome where nickel should be was "accepted". It just didn't knock the vehicle enough points-wise to keep it from getting the award. It might have been the highest point vehicle otherwise and made the current minimum.

"Over-restoration and nonauthentic

restoration are not the same.

Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss

than original paint would be considered

over-restoration." OK, now let's be real here....many early cars came with fantastic factory finishes, lacquer that's been sanded and made beautiful......and now there's base coat and clear coat that's judged and acceptable? And, for example, the Model A class..the fenders were DIPPED in black paint, correct? How many Model A's have won Senior awards with dipped fenders?

Base coat with clear coat is accepted because the other methods of painting are no longer allowed by law. I personally have no idea how many Model A's have won a Senior Award with dipped fenders? Probably no one knows that.

"Chrome plating or varnishing

a part which was originally painted

would be considered

non-authentic restoration,

and the vehicle would receive the

appropriate point deduction

on the judging form." Yes, a chrome plated valve cover on a 1927 Chevrolet would be silly, but this does NOT address the issue of chrome plating things that were originally nickel.

Here are the actual guidelines for the deductions regarding items that have been incorrectly plated.

Page 18 - Item 10

10. Plating must be of the authentic type for

the vehicle being judged. Chrome plating

prior to 1928 is incorrect unless authenticity

can be documented by the owner.

Hard Nickel is acceptable. Deduct 1 point

for each item with non-authentic plating

with a maximum deduction of 10 points.

Ask for documentation on questionable

plating.

Guess I sound argumentative, and you also have to put my comments in the category of "a guy who doesn't get his cars judged". Just my opinion.

So noted.

[trimacar]

Susan, thank you for the "so noted", as my ramblings are just that!!!

[msmazcol]

Page 18 item 10 nails it on the head. Max deduction of ten points for chrome vs. nickel.

400-10=390 still way into a Senior award.

Review your judging report and make a few changes your golden. Your chrome can stay.

[Shop Rat]

Susan, thank you for the "so noted", as my ramblings are just that!!!

No problem.

[ChryslerMike25]

Thank you my fiends for many ideas and suggestions. I have a course of direction planned now.

So now can we discuss original factory accessories,,,like wheel covers for spare tires!

Thanks

Mike

[Shop Rat]

Thank you my fiends ...... Mike

:eek:

[MCHinson]

ChryslerMike25,

I suggest you find a local experienced Judge and ask him or her to help you look over your car. Two sets of eyes, especially when one is experienced in judging, going over the car and looking at the highlighted judging sheet will probably be able to find a few easy to correct minor issues that can cost you quite a few points. It is certainly possible to minimize the points lost on other issues to make it easier to compete successfully even with incorrect plating. Hershey is a tough venue. All it takes is one 400 point car, and the 10 point rule means you could have 389 points and get a Second Junior. Another car could get a First Junior on another day at another meet with only 365 points if it had no other car in the same class. A smaller meet would be an easier place to get a First Junior or a Senior, but it can be done at Hershey. Attention to all of the minor details is the secret to success on the showfield. Good Luck!

[West Peterson]

I'd also like to add that just because a car has been professionally restored, usually the expertise has to come from the car owner. In other words, unless the shop has a proven record that they know that type of car inside and out, the owner needs to be an integral part of the restoration.

Mike, I'm not saying that you weren't. You probably were if I understand your passion for this automobile. But, the restorer is relying on you to provide the essential details as to what is correct and what isn't. I'm going to bet that once you receive your judging comments back, the points that knocked you down to a 2nd Junior will probably be fairly simple to fix. Things like valve stem covers, bolts with modern markings, hose clamps and carpet where it doesn't belong, (combined with the chrome deductions) would take you out of that first-place category quickly at a meet such as Hershey.

Hope to see you at Gettysburg. As you can see from these posts, there are a LOT of people willing to help you get your car to the next level. These same people will more than likely end up being lifetime friends.

[Bob Hill]

ChryslerMike25,

I suggest you find a local experienced Judge and ask him or her to help you look over your car.

Excellent advice !!!

Before I took my Model A to Punta Gorda in 1995 for it's first AACA National, I had a couple of experienced AACA Judges to go over it with a fine tooth comb. I had been winning Best of Shows left and right at the local level but that meant nothing when going for a 1st Junior. They found lots of little things that I needed to either correct or detail so I spent the winter prior to the show doing everything they said needed to be done. When I got to Punta Gorda, guess who was on the judging team for my car ? One of the guys I had asked - in fact, I think he may have been the Team Captain. Needless to say I was nervous as I knew he had already "judged" it in great detail 6 months earlier and knew what was wrong. Fortunately I won my First Junior at that show and my Senior at Hiawassee, GA later in the year and was nominated for a National Award to boot that year. Had I went to Punta Gorda with what I "thought" was a winning car, I would have come home VERY disappointed.

BOB

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bob Hill (see edit history)

[Guest billybird]

Everyone talks about how hard it is to win at Hershey. I disagree. IMHO, Hershey would be the easiest place to win due to the massive number of cars. In a meet that size, the vehicles can't possibly be scrutinized as they would at a smaller meet. { judges fatigue? } I have personally seen cars that won at Hershey with dual exhaust { should have been single } Wrong radiator and hardware all from NAPA when the correct fasteners are available. If I had a vehicle I wanted to "pass off", I'd try it at Hershey. Just all my opinion.

[Steve Moskowitz]

My first car in AACA judging was a nickel car....plain pain to clean. In my opinion worse than doing a brass car. There are a couple of processes that some use to do a nickel car without going the chrome option. The Chrome just sticks out on a car that should be nickel in my opinion. Certainly makes life easier though for those of us that don't enjoy polishing!

There should be no deduction for a spare tire cover if it is factory optioned. The key is documentation. A friend and I both have '29 Oldsmobiles and he has the only piece of literature that shows a factory spare tire cover. When I first saw it I thought it to be wrong and simply asked (which is what a judge should do) and found out I was wrong!

The one thing I have seen over the 8 years on this job is people judge the entire club over the actions of one or two people. There is no excuse for rudeness but that vast majority of our volunteers are friendly and spend a lot of their own money coming to a meet to judge. They are not reimbursed and the awards are not much at all!

Anyone that has a judging issue SHOULD contact the VP of Class Judging as Susan said. We can determine almost everything including who the judges were. If we do not know about a problem, we can't fix it. On the rare occasion that a judge does not act professionally they are either counseled or asked to not participate.

[Shop Rat]

..... If we do not know about a problem, we can't fix it.

An exellent point Steve. Complaints talked about here are rarely seen by the VPs of the different committees as many never come onto the forums. It is best to send a letter to the VP in charge of the area where there has been a problem.

On the rare occasion that a judge does not act professionally they are either counseled or asked to not participate.

I personally know this is the case. In all the times I have been a Team Captain, and also a Deputy Chief when the AACA had those also, I have had one person that I had to refer for re-training. It was done and I have since judged with this person and they have improved and even joined the C.T.C. program.

At each meet the Team Captain has an evaluation sheet to fill out regarding each judge on the team. And the team has an evaluation form to fill out regarding how the Team Captain did their job.

[Guest proxie35]

Why was my reply deleted????????????????????????????????????????????

Well, Well guess no one will admit their actions.

Edited December 31, 2011 by proxie35 (see edit history)