1965 Riviera GS Turquoise small badge in Indy

[Guest carlbraun]

Nice car and the coolest Riviera color...but (sigh) non numbers match engine.

Interesting read on this offering...check it out

Buick : Riviera Buick : Riviera | eBay

[Patrick91914]

Hmmmm....If this car has an LX block, I wouldn't be concerned, but if it has the standard 425, combined with having arge emblems on the side, small emblem on the rear deck...not sure what this this. This car need close scrutiny to ensure its pedigree.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Patrick91914 (see edit history)

[Guest carlbraun]

Hi Patrick

No mention of the engine code thats in the car now. Just the reference to the other tag etc for the Verde Green car.

[RivNut]

I'm thinking that the referenced vinly top was not a factory vinyl top. I can't say for sure but I think that vinyl topped cars did not have the fake vent panel under the rear window and the moldings for the top were a complete setup - at least the ones were that I pulled from a junker a decade or two ago. This one looks like it has the same sail panel trim that a non-vinyl top car has and a home made piece was added along the bottom of where the top would end. A picture of the trim tag would answer those questions.

Ed

Edited November 22, 2011 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Patrick91914]

I'm thinking that the referenced vinly top was not a factory vinyl top. I can't say for sure but I think that vinyl topped cars did not have the fake vent panel under the rear window and the moldings for the top were a complete setup - at least the ones were that I pulled from a junker a decade or two ago. This one looks like it has the same sail panel trim that a non-vinyl top car has and a home made piece was added along the bottom of where the top would end. A picture of the trim tag would answer those questions.

Ed

This is not a vinyl top car. The vinyl top trim includes corner pieces on each side which connects to the sail panel trim and a long strip the goes across the back.

[JZRIV]

Those are 66 valve covers and aren't CA style. It'd be nice to know what code the block is and what number the carbs are.

Considering what it needs, I'll be shocked if anyone bites on the $16.5 buy it now.

There sure are a lot of cars that have had the engines replaced. Its probably why matching numbers can be a big deal for some. Time tends to erase our memory that the quality control in the 60s wasn't close to what it is today nor was the longevity any match for todays cars.

Thanks for posting Carl. It makes for an educational discussion.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: As I have stated many times previously the 425 was not a good engine and when they got around 100 they started playing out. That's why their are so many Rivieras with replacement engines.

In the 60's as a teenager I was EXTREMELY ENCHANTED with the 65 Riviera GS. I couldn't care less if the motor wasn't original. All that mattered was that "425" was a cool number and if I associated my self with that number I really fit in. In the 70's when my teenage enchantment was able to be fulfilled I couldn't care less if it had the original engine.

I got my 65 GS in 1976. The original motor had so much blow by that it was impossible to drive with the windows closed. I purchased a 64 Riviera hit hard in the rear and swapped the engine and several other parts that needed replacing. I drove that car around as a daily driver for a long time and it still starts up and runs like a top today. Of course I had the 425 rebuilt and knowing then what I know now I wouldn't have changed a thing.

In my opinion the thing that matters most is how well the engine as well as the rest of the vehicle runs. Second is the appeal the car has. Happy Thanksgiving, Mitch

[RivNut]

The engine in that '64 Riviera was a 425; that was the only availible engine that year. You could get it with one or two four barrel carbs. I'm wondering why the '64 425 ran so good and so long as compared to the '65 425?

[lrlforfun]

OK Ed: It didn't. When I got my 65 in 76 it had 100+ on it and it was tired. The used 64 engine I put in my 65 had like 70K and it lasted about 30K more then it started knockin. I pulled it out and had a very good machinist rebuild it. After the break in period of about 1,000 miles a friend was hustling Slick 50 and just about forced it into my engine. For some reason the Slick 50 seemed to help. How can I document this? I can't. It's just a feeling I had. And for the record........here's my 425 history as of now..

9 1964 Rivs:

1 rebuilt by me

3 Running good, no history

2 run crummy, blowing by not drivable

3 locked up or scattered

2 1965 Rivs:

1 rebuilt, runs good

1 scattered

So you see, these engines really are not that great. The 2-4 engines got an extra shot of gas in the crankcase all those early years so I would think that they are that much worse than the rest. I have several 1960 Buicks with 364's and 401's and they are DRAMATICALLY much better.

Again, this matching numbers mythology is mythology with one exception. I have a pair of 63 Rivs with 65 401-turbo combination and as many know that interchange, while still possible, is usually horrible and could easily ruin a car because it's done by people who aren't knowledgeable. Mitch

Edited November 23, 2011 by lrlforfun
added information (see edit history)

[Jolly_John]

Hi, Gang. I think as the earlier Gran Sport Riviera models have attained a broader following, and the prices have been subsequently pushed up well past $25,000 on many of these cars, guys are starting to be more concerned about getting (and possibly demanding) a numbers-matching car.

For example, in the 1960's to early 1980's, many Corvette guys couldn't have cared less about owning a numbers-matching Vette. They just wanted to own a particular year or body style of Corvette. Then, as prices of the earlier models rose because they were being pursued by more collectors, the Corvette numbers-matching mania really kicked into high gear. I sense a bit of that same thing happening with the Riviera Gran Sports. John

Edited November 24, 2011 by Jolly_John (see edit history)

[BadgerRivFan]

Could not agree more with your comments John...

[1965rivgs]

Comparing a Buick Riviera, the top of the line of a auto maker which attracts older, conservative, value oriented consumers, and the typical `60`s muscle car which was relatively inexpensive and marketed by a division with a performance reputation, or a sports car like the Corvette, is really comparing apples and oranges.

The typical Buick Riviera buyer was older and more conservative than the muscle car or Corvette buyers. The Rivs were no doubt kept better, driven more conservatively, recognized when new as destined to be classic cars and just too damn expensive to be thrashed to parts and pieces. Besides, it is a heavy car and not your typical candidate for drag race enthusiasts. My experience has been that the majority of real GS cars still retain their original drivetrains.

It is true that when the Nailhead sees any appreciable rpm above redline it self destructs but any large displacement `60`s V-8 is tired by 100K. We short tripped them more, no fuel injection, blah, blah, blah..

When given a choice it is always desireable in a collector car to retain the original drivetrain, or any original components for that matter, because that is an indication that the car was not abused, may have relatively low miles or was perhaps owned by few owners. But as we have seen in the muscle car market having documentation is nearly as good, in terms of value, as having matching numbers. The numbers matching aspect was huge for awhile but that seems to have tapered off. I think as Buick Rivieras go we are privileged to have a better chance to find a numbers matching car.

There seem to be quite a few "hodge podge" specimens surfacing lately. Buyer beware,

Tom Mooney

[Bleach]

True, it was a car that attracted older richer buyers. The 63 I owned was originally purchased by a gentleman in his 60's and he lived in an affluent part of Los Angeles. When I bought the car, the owner was well into his 80's and the car had over 90K miles but still ran great and was mechanically in excellent order. The rest of the car fared less than optimally as it did mechanically. The body suffered a number of collisions. Both front fenders had been replaced at some point, the rear quarter right behind the right door had suffered a serious hit, the hood and both door panels showed signs of repair and so did the rear quarters in trunk areas.

It still looked great after all that.

[Paul K.]

FWIW, I had good luck with the 425 in my '64. Bought it with 106k when I was 16 and it was a screamer. I ran it hard as any young kid would but I also maintained it well. It was a perfectly maintained car when I got it too which helped a lot. The 425 finally got tired at 151k miles, it still ran strong, but the oil pressure was down to about 5 psi at idle.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: Tom has stated that he thought the majority of 65 GS units could still have their original engine. This is a statement based upon the facts that Tom has accumulated in his years of appreciating these cars. I really don't know and while certainly an interesting fact to know it remains unclear.

For the $64,000 question....... how many 65 Rivieras including GS models, have survived, period. I have posed this question and I would think that there are statisticians out there who have formulas in determining the survival rate of things. Registries can be helpful in small amounts but when dealing with initial production numbers over several thousand I would think it takes a real expert to know how to zoom in.

On the "What's My Car Worth" show the other day they featured a 58 Savoy 2 dr. ht. They claimed that there were about 18-19,000 units built and that it was a common car. Perhaps, but by 1968 probably most were long gone.........but then again, who really really knows??? I saw a 57 Savoy 2 dr ht on Oakland in the mid 70's and it really got my attention!

[Yellowriv]

Ok, so now I'm properly confused.

Can someone tell me why a 401 is a better engine than a 425, if in fact this is correct?

Secondly, I read that nailheads are very durable engines, but this is not clear from these posts. As an owner of a 322 and 401 am I missing something?

[1965rivgs]

The Nailhead does not like high RPM. Usually the piston pin gets ripped out of the piston skirt and wallops a hole in the block or takes out the central oil galley which runs front to back thru the center of the block. I have seen many of these.

It is foolish to run the rpm up on this motor because it stops making power in the upper RPM ranges because of the heads...they dont breathe well, at least not in stock form.

Tom Mooney