What makes up a Phaeton?

[buicknewbee]

As some of you know I am somewhat new to the buick crowd and have many questions that go like this. I have noticed that several Buicks have spare tire holders on the front fenders, and have seen other car makes of the past with the same tire holders with the last part of the model name being Phaeton. I have just assumed that the spare tire holders must designate them with that last model name from what I have seen. However just recently I have seen a Buick for sale with the last part of the model saying phaeton, but it does not have the spare tires. Can someone explain this to me please.

Thanks!

[Guest wildcat62]

Welcome buicknewbee!

Growing up with a pop in the Classic Car Club of America, I've asked this question myself before. Here is what I recall.

A Phaeton is a 4 door open touring car. (think no roll up windows) As opposed to a Roadster, which has two doors.

So the difference is not sidemounts (spare tires), but instead doors. Hope that helps.

[38Buick 80C]

Well what Buick calls a "phaeton", and actual automotive definitions of a "phaeton" vary somewhat. Buick called my four door "convertible sedan" a Phaeton, but if I am not mistaken the actual definition of a phaeton would be a four door convertible touring car type with side curtains. The difference being the side windows versus side curtains.

I'm sure there will be others that comment on this somewhat controversial nomenclature

[Booreatta]

I did some research on the topic of Phaeton several years ago and the term came from carriages before the Automobile. When the car came around it was used for mostly 4 door open cars with side curtins and no roll up windows. There are however several phaetons that were 2 door. Example of the Ford model A180 in 1930 it was a 2 door phaeton with sidemounts. Another example of a phaeton was an open car with the folding top folding outside the body of the car in the back. Bottom line would appear the term has been used loosly over the years. So if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it could be a phaeton

Chuck Kerls

[Dave@Moon]

From Dictionary of Automotive Terms A-Z:

Phaeton

An open-type body with two cross seats, it usually accommodates five passengers. A folding windshield, folding weatherproof fabric top and removable side curtains are usually standard equipment. The four-seater was called a double phaeton, and the six-seater or seven-seater was called a triple phaeton.

However it doesn't pay to get too hung up on automotive semantics. (Just search this forum to read all the gaskets being blown every time somebody uses the name "classic" in unknowing vain!) For every term there are weird applications that have to be incorporated.

For instance, to Volkswagen this was a "Phaeton":

[Marty Roth]

Buick nomenclature calls my 1937 Buick Roadmaster 80-C a Phaeton, but technically it should be considered a Convertible Sedan because it has "roll-up windows - instead of side-curtains".

My 1930 Packard 733 is considered a Phaeton - some call it a Phaeton, but some call it a Touring Car, like my 1914 Buick B-37 Touring Car.

Lets add to the terms:

All three Cadillacs are open 6-passenger cars.

The 1941 has glass windows for each of the two doors, but no rear side windows - it is called a Cabriolet, but....

The 1954 and 1970 Cadillacs have these side windows behind the door, and are considered a Convertible Coupe.

See photos, below,

and welcome to the FORUM and the world of Buick

[DavidAU]

If a Phaeton is a 4 door car with side curtains and a folding roof ( and I don't necessarily disagree) but I always thought a Phaeton was a convertible sedan with roll up side windows, then what is the definition of a Tourer.

[Booreatta]

If a Phaeton is a 4 door car with side curtains and a folding roof ( and I don't necessarily disagree) but I always thought a Phaeton was a convertible sedan with roll up side windows, then what is the definition of a Tourer.

I asked myself the same question so I did a little research and what I was able to find out the Tourer is very simular to the Phaeton. Wickipedia defines 'Tourer as an open car with four or five seats. Tourers may have 2 or 4 doors. Often the belt line is lowered in the front doors to give the car a more sportive character. They are usually equipped with a folding roof and side cuurtains"

Chuck Kerls

[Dave@Moon]

From Dictionary of Automotive Terms A-Z:

Touring car<dl><dd>A vehicle with a body longer than the phaeton style, but very similar to it. It permits the use of auxiliary seats in the rear passenger compartment. It was an open car with seats for four or more passengers. Early models had no side weather protection but later were fitted with detachable side screens and curtains. Made until about 1930.

</dd></dl>

However it doesn't pay to get too hung up on automotive semantics. (Just search this forum to read all the gaskets being blown every time somebody uses the name "classic" in unknowing vain!) For every term there are weird applications that have to be incorporated.

For instance, to Europeans these are "tourers":

You and I call them station wagons.

[Guest Oracle]

My page gives you examples of some Phaetons:

RARE CONVERTIBLE CHEVROLETS

The Fisher Body codes were: DELUXE CONVERTIBLE SEDAN WITH TRUNK OR TOURING PHAETON CONVERTIBLE, XX29; PHAETON, XX56; PHAETON CHASSIS, XX06

In Canada in 1935 there was a Chevrolet Model 1256 5-passenger Regular Phaeton in the Standard Six EC series.

In 1936 there was in theory a 1006 Phaeton Chassis in the Master series but none were built. There was though one, just one, 1206 Phaeton chassis in the Standard series.

[Restorer32]

As applied to Packards a Phaeton is an open 4 door with no roll up windows and no jumpseats. If it has jump seats it is a Touring. If it has no jump seats but does have a second windshield behind the driver it is a Sport Phaeton.

[poci1957]

As has been stated, it is difficult to find hard and fast rules for this sort of thing, but I think one could safely summarize as:

TOURING a (usually) four door open car with 4-7 passenger seating and no roll up side windows; a term used mostly for cars before the late 1920s.

PHAETON a two or (usually) four door car with 4-7 passenger seating, usually with no roll up side windows, used on cars of the late 1920s-1930s. Sometimes applied to convertible sedans on later models.

CONVERTIBLE SEDAN a four door with roll up side windows and a folding convertible top that when closed provide a weathertight (more or less) interior.

This should hopefully be a good catch-all for most usage, Todd C

[buicknewbee]

I'm sure glad that I'm not the only one that doesn't quite understand the termanology. Evidently over the years the term has been used loosely. That's ok though just as long as I understand that it just doesn't apply to a buick, and realy has no bearing on the value of a 30s or 40s convertible. I have been looking at some buicks that have been advertised for sale as phaetons and I just wasn't sure what that meant. Didn't know if that meant they should demand a higher price or if it just stated that it had sidemounts. Thanks for all the responses.

[poci1957]

That's ok though just as long as I understand that it just doesn't apply to a buick, and realy has no bearing on the value of a 30s or 40s convertible.

Didn't know if that meant they should demand a higher price or if it just stated that it had sidemounts.

I forgot you asked about the sidemounts, they are not related to the topic other than that phaetons were often higher end cars that had sidemounts.

[West Peterson]

There's a huge, huge difference in value between a phaeton and a tourer (touring). There is more difference than just jump seats. The body of a phaeton is shorter than a touring, which makes it look sportier and thus more valuable. In the late 1920s and throughout the 1930s, I don't believe that Buick ever built a true phaeton.

[John_Maine]

I believe Mercury also called their first 4 door hardtop in 1956 a Phaeton. However, phaeton to me has always been a 4 door open touring type car.

[Marty Roth]

Hate to have to contradict Vertigo,

but the body of a Phaeton is not necessarily shorter than the body of a Touring,

certainly not in the case of many series of Packards

[buick5563]

This is very interesting, thanks for bringing it up Newbee.

Since I am generally a Post-War guy, I guess I always thought of it as an early four door convertible. For example, I never thought of an "LBJ" Lincoln as a Phaeton.

Carry on...

[Restorer32]

Hate to have to contradict Vertigo,

but the body of a Phaeton is not necessarily shorter than the body of a Touring,

certainly not in the case of many series of Packards

Actually Packard Touring bodies 1929 thru at least 1934 are indeed longer than Phaetons. We have made top irons and bows for both and they differ significantly. All 9th thru 11th Series Packard Tourings share the same body shell as do all 9th thru 11th Series Phaetons and Sport Phaetons. If it has jump seats it's a Touring. If not, it's a Phaeton.

[buicknewbee]

This is very interesting, thanks for bringing it up Newbee.

Since I am generally a Post-War guy, I guess I always thought of it as an early four door convertible. For example, I never thought of an "LBJ" Lincoln as a Phaeton.

Carry on...

Yes I didn't know any of this info. This will probably prove usefull in buying a convertible someday!

[Marty Roth]

Vertigo -- Yes, Buick did build Phaetons in the 1920s and 1930s,

and,

With defference to Restorer 32, it seems that there is a lack of consistancy in terminology between Phaeton vs Touring*:

1929 Buick Series 129 5-Passenger Sport Touring, Model 29-55

1930 Buick Series 60 7-Passenger Phaeton, Model 30-69

1931 Buick Series 90 7-Passenger Phaeton, Model 95

1932 Buick Series 90 7-Passenger Sport Phaeton, Model 95

1932 Buick Series 60 5-Passenger Sport Phaeton, Model 65

apparently not all Phaetons don't have jump seats, and

not all Tourings have jump seats

* Source, Seventy Years of Buick, George Dammann, Copyright 1973, Revised edition

It looks like when we try to make a rule, the exceptions are already there.

Car below , acording to Buick is a 1914 Buick B-37 5-Passsenger Touring

[nzcarnerd]

Phaeton is just a flash name for a touring car. It came into more general use later in the 1920s and was used mostly in the 1930s when convertible bodies constituted a much smaller percentage of most manufacturer's production. In the early 1920s typically about 80+% of production was open bodies - mostly touring cars - but by the late 1920s it was less than 20%. The open body car became more of a lifestyle thing - whereas early on it was really all you could get, unless you paid a lot more money and you got something that would be shaken to pieces on most roads of the time. As others have said there is no hard and fast rule to these vehicle body names.

There is an interesting comment in this story - Fisher Body Company, Fisher Body, Fisher Body Division, Fisher Brothers, GM, Fred Fisher, Albert Fisher, Charles Fisher, Fleetwood, General Motors, Standard Wagon Works, Coachbult.com - about Fishers and how they lowered their costs early on but the car makers still charged a high price for sedans.

Edited October 29, 2011 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)