1957 Buick is Stalling while driving

[1957buickjim]

Need some advice on this. My 1957 Buick was running fine then all of the sudden, when I try to start it, it cranks a couple of time, but acts like it is not geting spark. Soem times the carb spits gas. Then I wait a couple minutes and it fires right up. Then, while I am driving, the car stalls out. I put the car in neutral and hit the pedal and it starts up again, but it may do it 5 minutes later or never. No rhyme or reason to it. I rebuilt the carb to factory specs (2BBL Carter - 364 250 HP Dyanflow) and it worked like a champ for the last year. Took it off to repaint the engine compartment (was off the car for about a month - no gas in it) and reinstalled. Started right up. Worked fine for about a month, then this started happening. I can barely go 3 miles without the stalling. Any ideas on what it could be? Any advice would be really welcome, since this condition prohibits me from driving my car any futher than around my neighborhood. Thanks.

[Guest 60electra225]

I would try swapping out the coil as a first step.

[Fr. Buick]

Fuel filter?

Also check cap and rotor, points gap and timing.

[Caballero2]

Also, check your ballast resistor, they have been known to burn out with age. The break in the steel coil in it can make and break related to heat expansion and contraction. The symptoms are like those you describe.

Dan

[1957buickjim]

Thanks guys. Any suggestions as to where to get the coil and ballast resitor? Those seem to be the simplest fix. I have heard that the coils available now are not as good as the older ones that are original, same with the ballast resistor. Any suggestions to where to get those parts would be appreciated.

Msgr, I put a new fuel filter in the car when I hooked up the carb again, so I don't think it could be that, but I will check anyway. It can't hurt.

Would like to eliminate those as possible causes first before going after the rotor, cap, points and timing. The car runs well, no dieseling when I shut it off, so I think the timing is set ok. Thanks guys. I will try to get those fixes in and report back. Thanks.

[Caballero2]

One other thing, the wire that goes from the coil to the distributor gets old and cracked. It then can ground out intermittently against the distributor housing or other possible ground contact point. I think that the tri-five Chevys used the same ballast resistor. They are being reproduced and are available at danchuk .com. I probably have good used older production coil among my stuff if you determine that is your problem. - Dan

[1957buickjim]

Thanks Dan! I will look on danchuk for the resistor. I will also check the wire from the distributor. I will let you know about the coil. I did drop it from about 3 feet when I was getting ready to install it. Could that have messed it up? Thanks.

[NTX5467]

I had an issue with my '68 LeSabre that was similar. When I got the car, I would run it while it was parked. Every so often, the rpm would start declining and the engine would die if I didn't "catch" it first, by pumping the throttle, then everything would be fine. I'd done the normal tune-up stuff after I got it, so I knew all of that was in good condition.

When I started driving it, I'd be going down the road and the rpm would start going away, as if it was running out of gas. Usually, if I started wildly pumping the throttle, it'd catch and be good again. Sometimes, I would end up coasting to the shoulder before it would restart. When it did, it didn't want to idle, so I'd manually raise the rpm to a fast idle in "N", then quickly shift into "D" and drive off. I usually had to try to keep the rh rr tire on the dirt to soften the driveline shock.

Back then, I had a bag phone cell phone which used the cigarette lighter plug for power. That safety net went away when I discovered there was no power to that plug! So, the last time I had the performance issue was on the way back to my shadetree shop. I felt lucky to get there! And that's where the car stayed!

I got a new fuel pump and installed it one night. I'd known that the prior owner didn't want his daughter taking the car to college with her, so he sold it to my employer, with whom I struck a deal for the car . . . a deal I couldn't pass up. One thing was curious about it, though . . . the fuel line to the carb had been cut and a piece of rubber hose over where the tubing was sawed. I'd figured that I would get a repro line anyway.

In taking the fuel pump off, I noticed that both bolts which held it on were different--one had a smooth flange head and the other one had a serrated surface on the bottom of the flange head part of the bolt. The smooth bolt was on the front and the serrated one was on the rear of the pump mounting flange, which was the way it came apart. The smooth bolt was on the pivot point should the rear bolt become loose, the serrations were on the rear bolt to help keep it tight (without needing a lock washer).

After I got the fuel pump replaced and the bolts tightened, after some pumping, the engine started and sounded better than it ever had. Not just more responsive, but sounded better, too! That's when the mystery seemed to unravel as to why the fuel line had the "joint" in it, for a pressure take-off to run a fuel pressure gauge. For good measure, I figured I'd get a friend to go through the carb, but that happened later still.

So, fuel pumps are pretty inexpensive compared to all of the angst they can cause. Even if yours might still be considered "good", you might change it for good measure.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[1957buickjim]

Thanks Willis! When i took the engine and compartment down, I put in a rebuilt fuel pump as well and new lines and filter to the carb. To keep it original though, I put the wire clamps on the lines from the pump all the way to the carb. Is it possible that there may be a slight vacuum leak or something that could be causing it? I know those clamps are not the tightest items in the world, or the OE's would still be using them?

I am not leaking any gas anywhere from the pump forward to the carb, nor from the tank to the pump.

I also have also read that the stalling condition could be a result of a vacuum leak somewhere. I did put a power brake system on the car (originally had manual brakes) which necessitated the installation of an additional line, check valve and vac booster tank, all with additional vacuum lines. Could that be a problem as well? Have you heard of any of those being an issue?

I do have 2 more rebuilt fuel pumps, and another aftermarket non rebuildable AC pump as well if that is the item.

I guess, in a perfect world, I would like to start with the easiest and work to eliminate those items first. Any suggestions on a plan of attack on this?

[NTX5467]

If the hose clamps aren't leaking, they're probably fine.

For grins, I think I'd try the AC pump and see what happens. Not that any of the rebuilts might be flaky, but this way you'll know that the innards of the pump are "as produced" rather than otherwise. If there's a vacuum leak from your added brake booster items, it should be obvious at all times.

One way I've found to check for possible vacuum leaks is to bring the engine up to about 1000rpms or fast idle. Hold it there and let things stabilize, then suddenly release the throttle and listen to how smooothly the rpm drops . . . as in "linearly" or if it might waver a little before the final drop to base idle. If it tends to waver, then there's probably a leak somewhere, otherwise it'd fall smoothly and normally. IF the carb has a dashpot to delay complete throttle closing, you might need to readjust it so it's not functioning for this test. Then, reset it back to where it was previously. But it also might be possible to run the test with it functioning, but you might need to listen a little closer to the way the engine rpm responds to the closed throttle situation.

One thing bothers me, though . . . I'm wondering if there might be something going on inside of the fuel tank. As in sediments or previously-done sealer temporarily clogging the pickup screen on the sending unit? Three miles might be time enough for the carb to come off of fast idle and return to base idle, but not anything else related to engine heat to really affect things.

When it restarts, is the idle OK? Will it drive for another 3 miles and then it's an "instant replay"? How does the engine do above idle? I'm wondering if there might be some accumulated deposits inside of the venturi cluster feed tubes . . . which carb cleaners will not remove. Check the "Loping '55 Buick" thread in the AACA "Technical" section. My last post kind of condenses some things I've mentioned previously regarding the venturi cluster supply tubes.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Caballero2]

There is a chance that the drop damaged the coil. It is unlikely though. Another coil as a trial is probablly worth the test. - Dan

[JohnD1956]

I would test the carb base gasket. While running spray some WD 40 around the base and if the idle changes, you've found a vacuum leak.

[1957buickjim]

Maybe there are multiple problems. I guess first, when cold it sometimes starts, but some times it only cranks a couple of times, like it is not getting spark, but only a couple, not like the starter or battery is low. Whirrr whirr..nothing. Let off on the starter. Whirr whirr. no click click click, which i find disturbing. I did smell gas and did see it shoot gas out of the carb at least one time when I took the top of the air cleaner off.

I would let it sit for a minute with the air cleaner top off, and then it would fire right up. That is the first puzzling problem.

The second is the stalling. I did put the fuel pump on, and is was a rebuild one. I will give the known good one back on and see if that alleviates the issue. I have been wondering if it is something in the fuel system as well. I wondered if the carb may have a blocked jet or something.

I did add the factory correct fuel filter (glass bowl), which it did not have before. The filter inside that was new, as well.

The tank has never been sealed and I did have a new sending unit put in about 4 years ago. I do have a filter at the tank as well, trying to make sure that there is pretty filtered fuel reaching the pump. I will replace that first.

As for the venturis, I do have another rebuilt carb that I can put on the car. I guess that can't hurt. How would I clean the venturis on the other carb? Can I blow them out with air or is is a total disassemble?

As for the vacuum leak tests, I will put WD40 test on the car, as well as run the other tests at idle speed. From what I can tell, the idle seems to be ok, but now armed with this data, I will really do the deep dive testing to check it.

Can I test the coil in some fashion with an ohm meter to see if it is in spec before investing in a new coil? I am assuming that there is some tests that I can do to see if it is in spec to a certain ohm or voltage range.

I guess I would like to get some idea on where to start the process first. I think that I will go for the vacuum leak tests first when I get it running, then the idle tests. If there is a test spec for the coil, I could do that before I start it to make sure that is in spec.

Checking all the connections and wiring (I did put a new wire harness on in the engine compartment so all the main wires are good) but it did not include the ignition wiring, so I will look at those to make sure that they are not cracked and possibly shorting out. Check the distributor to coil wire. Is there a way to check the ballast resistor in the same fashion as the coil, i.e. ohm meter or volt meter?

When all those are complete and up to snuff, then look at the fuel delivery system from the tank forward. Replacing the filter at the tank is a given. If the problem still persists, then replace the fuel pump.

Let me know if I have it all covered. Looks like I may have to buy some spare parts anyway just to see if the stuff works (coil, ballast resistor, condensor on the coil). If anyone has anymore ideas, please pass them along. This is one of those intermittent frustrating problems that interfere with the pleasure of driving this Buick Beauty! Thanks for all your help so far.

[Caballero2]

Put the ohm meter across the ballast resistor. If continuity is good, tap the resistor with the handle of a screw driver if there is no bounce in the meter needle, then the resistor is probably good. But, make sure the screws are tight that connect the electrical wires. Then make a similiar test with the wire from the distrutor. Dan

[1957buickjim]

Thanks Dan. That will be check 1.

[old-tank]

Jim

Be sure you have a vented gas cap. Also check the wire from the points to the junction on the distributor body. Check the points dwell at all rpm. Drive (as a test) with the vacuum advance disconnected.

Willie

[1957buickjim]

OK..so I decided to start it up and drive it to check symptoms again. This time, when I tried to start the car, the starter continuously engaged as the car started, then stalled, cranked and clickkkkkkk clickkkkkkk, cranked and started up. Once it was started, I let it idle in the dirveway for 10 minutes...smooth idle, did not shut down or stall. Decided to take it for a test drive to see if it would stall. Ran fine. Drove for about 25 minutes / 10 miles around my neighborhood. Nothing. No stalling, no anything. Ran fine. My guess is there might have been some bad gas in the line or something.

Pulled into the driveway and turned the car off. Attempted to restart. Back to sounds of the car trying to start and run at the same time. then clickkk clickkkk then the cars started for 5 seconds, stalled. Tried starting it again, whrrr whrrr ZOOM - started. This time not so smooth, not really rough, but a little more up and down with the idle than before. Turned it off, then some desieling after turned off.

Took it out of the drive to back it in the garage, and then it stalled in the middle of the street when I shifted into reverse. Tried starting it again and same as before, like the starter is going. Then it started right up, backed it into the garage and there she sits.

I think it might be in the starting circuit somehow. It was very disconcerting to have the starter and the engine running at the same time for those few seconds. I don't think that is good for either of them. What would cause the starter to continuously run like that once the engine is started? I wonder if it is the starter? It is beginning to be like owning Christine...

[old-tank]

I think it might be in the starting circuit somehow. It was very disconcerting to have the starter and the engine running at the same time for those few seconds. I don't think that is good for either of them. What would cause the starter to continuously run like that once the engine is started? I wonder if it is the starter? It is beginning to be like owning Christine...

You need a new starter relay. See my website: Low tech tips then Relays. This may not solve all of your problems, but will fix this one.

Willie

[1957buickjim]

Thanks Willie! I will look into getting one. There is a car quest nearby and I will see if they have one. Maybe that will cure one of the ailments.

[Caballero2]

Jim:

Somewhere here, there is a thread that looked at the problem of the starter continuing to run while the engine is running. I think the relay could be correct, however, those on the thread found a bad ignition switch the problem.

Dan

Edited September 14, 2011 by Caballero2 (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

when I tried to start the car, the starter continuously engaged as the car started, then stalled, cranked and clickkkkkkk clickkkkkkk, cranked and started up. Once it was started, I let it idle in the dirveway for 10 minutes...smooth idle, did not shut down or stall. Decided to take it for a test drive to see if it would stall. Ran fine. Drove for about 25 minutes / 10 miles around my neighborhood. Nothing. No stalling, no anything. Ran fine. My guess is there might have been some bad gas in the line or something.

Pulled into the driveway and turned the car off. Attempted to restart. Back to sounds of the car trying to start and run at the same time. then clickkk clickkkk then the cars started for 5 seconds, stalled. Tried starting it again, whrrr whrrr ZOOM - started. This time not so smooth, not really rough, but a little more up and down with the idle than before. Turned it off, then some desieling after turned off.

Took it out of the drive to back it in the garage, and then it stalled in the middle of the street when I shifted into reverse. Tried starting it again and same as before, like the starter is going. Then it started right up, backed it into the garage and there she sits.

I think it might be in the starting circuit somehow. It was very disconcerting to have the starter and the engine running at the same time for those few seconds. I don't think that is good for either of them. What would cause the starter to continuously run like that once the engine is started? I wonder if it is the starter? It is beginning to be like owning Christine...

Just checking the timeline of this problem:

Before you had this problem the car ran good on your rebuilt carb, then you pulled the carb, and replaced it and now you have all this problem. Is this right?

If so, I would try to install a new carb base gasket. Incorrect vacuum will impact the timing and idle. Vastly incorrect timing will impact the cooling. Hot valves and fast idle lead to diesling. That and the switch at the carb is supposed to break contact when vacuum pulls the ball bearing in the switch out of play.

Also, I would double check all vacuum hose fittings and any rubber components, going so far as to disconnect and block some lines with golf tees to see if you can isolate a faulty vacuum unit, like the wipers, wiper switch and powwer brake booster. I believe it does have vacuum wipers, correct?

Plus I would check your generator wires. The clicking from your starter would be from low voltage. Is your battery up to full charge level? Is your generator charging properly? When the car starts the output from the generator is supposed to act like a failsafe to prevent the starter from running. With lack of vacuum at start the switch, it would remain in play, but the generator should prevent the starter from continuing to run.

The only thing I can't figure out is how it ran fine for 25 minutes and 10 miles and then you start with the problems again? This type of thing is very frustrating.

[buick man]

Jim: From what I have been hearing from you I think it is fuel problem. You have water in your tank from and it separates as you refill and then starts the problems all over again. Drain the tank. Take it out by releasing the two straps at the bumper end. Once the gas is out the tank removal takes about 4 minutes. Take a gallon of acetone and pour it in there and swish it around. Then let is sit on a bench/table outside in the same position it is in when installed in the car. The tank is not heavy. Remove the internal filter and look at it. I would remove it and just use the proper brass fitting to allow you to reinstall your rubber line. The filter element in the glass bowl is more than enough to filter your fuel from a "clean" tank.

Do this and you have eliminated the most likely suspect. If it was electrical it would tend be more consistent and not sporadic.

That's my vote!

David

[61polara]

I had a similar problem on a '57 Buick. It would run great for 15-20 miles and die and would not restart. Let it sit for 30 miniutes and it would crank right up and run for another 15-20 miles and die. There is a filter/strainer on the pickup tube in the tank. This tank had not been cleaned out and the sediment in the tank would clog the filter. After 30 minutes, enough would fall off that the car would crank again. Cleaning and sealing the tank and removing the pickup striner solved the problem.

[1957buickjim]

Well, took Willie's advice as a start. Changed out the starter relay with an old one that I had, but still worked. Started up, ran for a few minutes, then stalled in the driveway. Tried to start it for about 3 minutes, would only turn over two or three times, like it wanted to kick over and start, but stopped. The car did this for about 3 minutes, then it kicked over and started up. Idled fairly well, but initially it seemed that the engine / carb was flooded. Lots of smoke on the second start. Let it idle for 2-3 minutes then took it for a ride for about 30 minutes, 8 - 10 miles. Ran well, no stalling while under load or at stops. Took it home and turned off the engine in the driveway. Tried to start it up again, started right away. Turned it off. Tried to start it again, and again the same like it wanted to turn over but only a couple times then stop. Did this for about 2 minutes, then started up again. Looks like I eliminated one gremlin (starter relay) but still have another one or two lurking about. Any ideas? Maybe the carb or settings? Seem to be getting there..Thanks for all the help so far.

[trp3141592]

Hi,

It's not just a post-war Buick that is having hiccups. I am having the same symptoms with my 1940 LaSalle. I REALLY want to hear what the issue comes down to.

The "water in the bottom of the tank" suggestion catches my eye. I'll be looking into that next weekend. I'll let you know what I find.

--Tom

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

Did you find the problem Jim ??

[trp3141592]

Hi,

As promised, I am letting y'all know what I found with the stalling, or cutting out, of my 40 LaSalle--the same problem that is the topic of this post.

I did the following:

Put three bottles of Heet in the gas tank to mix with possible water that may have accumulated from condensation. No change.

Opened up a kink that I found in the fuel line. No change.

Fabricated and installed an aluminum heat shield around the over-the-top exhaust manifolds to reduce heat at the carb. No Change.

Rebuilt the water pump and visually assured massive water flow through the radiator. No change.

Blocked the radiator shutter open. No change--but runs cold as ice.

Replaced distributor cap, plug/coil wires, and coil. No change.

THEN--the car refused to start, or even fire, in the parking lot at work a couple of Sunday afternoons ago. At last--it was in "failure mode" while standing still and I could see what was going on. Cranked like Jack the Bear, but no pops or hint of starting. Popping open the hood I checked all accessible items, and all seemed OK. Then I realized I didn't smell any gasoline. A quick test with the should-be-part-of-EVERYONE's-tool kit volt meter showed that I had 6 volts at the electric fuel pump, but no pump action. The ground for the pump tested good. Conclusion: the electric pump, with less than 100 hours on it, was intermittent, and I finally caught it in a dead moment.

So, what to do? It was Sunday afternoon, all alone in a secluded parking lot, and feeling pretty lonely right about then. I had my cell phone, but I also had my pride. Going home with the car on a hook was not appealing to me. Well, like everypone who has a vintage car, I carry lots of stuff around, and the stuff included a hunk of used rubber fuel line and some clamps. In a few minutes I had hooked up the 71 year old original mechanical fuel pump and hit the starter. The old pump worked (!), pulled fuel through the dead electric pump, and she fired right up. Since then I have been running on the old mechanical pump and the old gal now holds highway speeds with nary a hesitation.

Case closed.

Moral:

1) Arrange for failure to occur when the car is not moving so you can investigate it. Neat trick if you can do it. Took me two years.

2) Carry any and all imagingable parts and supplies in the trunk, along with your tool box and volt meter.

3) Have your cell phone with you.

4) Remember--there is a REASON--you just have to find it.

Happily motoring again,

--Tom

[1957buickjim]

Well, here's the rest of the story (to quote the late great Paul Harvey):

1. I took OldTank's (Willie's) advice and changed out the starter relay. Took the cover of the removed one and saw that it had arc'ed the contacts at some point. Cleaned up and used an original Delco that I had in my parts box. The car fired right up.

2. With the starting problem possibly over, I was now taking Buick Man's advice to a point. Unfortunately, before I recieved his note on draining and removing the fuel tank, I had just filled the sucker...so I had no place to put 20+ gallons of gas....so, I thought it might be water in the fuel tank, so I put a can of SeaFoam in the tank as well as some octane booster (guys - what is your take on the stuff - the octane booster?). Started the car up and let it idle for 15 minutes, then took it for a short ride....ran ok, no stalling.

3. Parked the car in garage for a few days, then tried it again. Car started up, and ran at idle. let it warm up for 10 minutes, then took it out for a 30 minute drive. Car ran like a champ, no stalling or problems. Shut the car off an restarted it and went off without a hitch. Drove great!

As a bonus, I would usually have to use starting fluid to help start the car after it had set for a few days, but now, starts right up after a few cranks.

SO...as Mike5563 says, always follow Willie's instructions..you can't go wrong! Thanks everybody for all the insight and help on this! Now onto headliner installation and new front carpets..