Show Car or Hot Rod?

[Guest Old Nailhead]

Hi,

Together with my hubby I am restoring my first classic car, a 1956 Buick Rivera. After a lot of reading on the different forum threads of the aaca club I am trying to decide where to go from here. I guess my question is will the end product of my efforts qualify as a show car or rather be just a hot rod?

First the tires: my husband owns a 1956 Plymouth Belvedere with Bias Ply tires. I HATE how it rides. I could swear those tires are square the way they bump down the road especially when it is a cold day. So I decided I would prefer radials on my buick. They are cost more but I hope for a smoother ride and better handling. However from what I gather that would cost a lot of points at a show?

Second the engine: I want to paint the engine compartment black and the engine itself in the correct buick green/blue (jury is out on what to call the color LOL). BUT I am not sure about the yellowish color of the carburator and therefor thought I'd like silver better and I also like the look of "dressed up engines". So I would like to add finned aluminium valve covers, spark plug covers and valey plate. I will keep the original oil bath breather and paint it black as it used to be. Let me guess that will cost me a lot more points?

Third the rims: I have seen Buicks with red painted rims and wide white wall tires. I like that a lot. It is impossible to say wether the rims on my buick were red or black. Currently they are rust . Could this cost more points?

Fourth the seat covers: I am not sure if I would be able to find the correct cloth type covers the car used to have. The seat covers are torn. I would like to replace them with custom made vinyl seat covers and black and white. I think vinyl would be more durable than cloth and I like the looks. The good news is black and white was the original interior color of the car. So how bad will the point loss for vinyl be?

The car used to be Tahiti Coral - Dover White - Tahiti Coral and will be repainted in its original colors. It also had dual exhaust. The bumper with the dual exhaust is there but the exhaust tips are missing and from what I gather they are very hard to come by. So if I replace them with something that looks similar but is not original will that also cost me points?

I know this is a very long post but I am absolutely new to car shows. Meaning I have never been to one. We are planning on going to Carlise, PA this spring, maybe that will shed some light on car shows for me .

All help would be appreciated on this subject. What am I restoring here a car I can take to shows without embarrassing myself or will the end result be more of a Hot Rod? :confused:

Thanks,

Nicole

[BUICK RACER]

Hey Nicole, you have a great attitude for asking such cool questions!! I have owned 3 '56 Buicks, both sides of the family had them and my folks back in the day! and my Brother has two at the present time, so I sort of kinda like them!!!

There's alot of info on the 1956 Buick Stuff page at:1956 Buick Stuff

and the other links of interest:

BUICK CLUB OF AMERICA

plus you need to join the Buick Club of America too!

https://www.buickclubofamerica.org/subscribe.html

But to answer some of your questions the judging manual will help with how many points are deducted for tires/wheels etc. Some people run radials to drive and have a seperate set of tires and wheels for judging.

http://www.buickclub.org/BCA%20JUDGING%20MANUAL/BCAjudgingrev2.pdf

The engine compartment is black, the engine is a greenish color, paint is available through several sources, the carb should be grayish, the air cleaner is black, now you want to put the way cool stuff on the engine and dress up the interior, time to think "modified" division, which guess what the Buick Club has that too!

Buick Modified Division

Most importantly, remember this is your Buick, you can do whatever you want, cause it's all yours and if you want to make it prettier than it was or keep it original it's up to you, I like to say my car is my trophy, it's a bigger dust collector that a stinking trophy though, Hope this all helps but btw what model is your Buick???????????

[NTX5467]

First, in that model year "Riviera" is the Buick code word for "hardtop". The specific model named "Riviera" didn't happen until the earlier 1960s. Therefore, the basic model name (i.e., Special, Century, Super, and Roadmaster) would be followed by "Riviera", but most would better understand "hardtop"--in the "outside world".

Show cars can be hot rods and vice versa--just depends upon which way you desire to go with it. In the world of the Buick Club of America 400 Point System judging (there should be a judging manual and sheet for download from the BCA website--see the front page of this website's drop-down menus). For the BCA 400 Point system, originality and correctness are key issues--think "End of the assembly line 'correct'", but there's also the Modified Division, plus Archival, and Driven Class too, which can allow Buicks not completely correct to have "places to be" in the grand scheme of BCA National Meets.

The "yellow" you see on the carburetor is "gold anodize" coating that has aged. If you rub it off, the base pot metal (main body) or cast iron (throttle body) will be obvious and not look too good. NO paint involved, except possibly on the cast iron throttle body being painted black to control rust. "Dressed-up engines" usually means chrome accessories, like valve covers and such. Certainly, Edelbrock and Holley have some shiney carbs available, but to use them on your engine will require some adaptation to the existing intake manifold, provided it's a 4bbl intake.

For that vintage of Buick, the red wheels are correct. BUT if the car had basic hub caps rather than full wheel covers, it might be that black would be the correct color . . . the judging manual should detail this, I suspect, or some other 55-56 Buick operatives might comment on this.

Interior . . . vintage and correct seat fabrics can usually be sourced from SMS in Oregon. To do this, you might need to send them a swatch of what you need to match with some other information on model and trim level. If complete originalilty is not important, respective of which judging standards you might be desiring to comply with, then browsing through the trim fabric/vinyl catalogs at a trim shop might be in order. This way you could mix-n-match fabrics (inserts areas) and vinyls (other seat areas) to get the look you might desire . . . not to mention also which ones might best fit your budget.

As for tires . . . again, this depends upon which set of judging rules you might desire to follow. It is a known trait of bias ply tires (especially with the older nylon cord fabrics) to "take a set" when parked for a while, then needing a few miles for them to smooooth out afterward. Polyester cords pretty much took care of that and should be what is used from about the middle 1960s forward. Still, if the vehicle sits for an extended period of time, the tires will flat-spot . . . EVEN RADIALS . . . and need a few miles to smooth out.

In some respects, many of the things which people complain about on bias ply tires didn't seem to bother us when that was all we had, back then. This can lead to the suspicion that many of these handling things are related to aged rubber bushings in the front suspension system.

In general, the radials we have today are NOT what we had when they first appeared on the scene in the later 1960s and became popular in the earlier 1970s. Current radials have thinner sidewalls than the earlier ones had, but this hasn't seemed to adversely affect things, except that the old "radial ride" smoooothness is not there, as earlier radials didn't "smooth out" in respect to impact harshness until "over 45mph". The current radials feel more like the "bias-belted" tires (the better brands) of the later 1960s, by observation. The advantages of the earlier radials tires are still there, though . . . long tread life, better handling, better traction, etc.

Back to your several comments about "cost me a bunch of points" . . . it just depends upon which "game" you desire to play. What's acceptable for weekend cruises or other similar car shows is one thing. What's acceptable for the BCA National Meet 400 Point System judging is another (see the judging manual). What's acceptable for the Driven Class or Modified Division are different still. So you need to determine just what you desire to do, unfortunately.

If you go to www.GreeneHDProductions.com, click on "Reality Rides" and watch those videos of what they did with a 1955 Buick Special 2-dr Riviera. It's certainly not stock, but is fabulous looking (even in person!). Some liberties were taken for the sake of modern conveniences vs. correctness and originality . . . BUT the car looks correct enough from a distance (other than the real wire wheels, which are obviously not production-correct, but readily available). The seat fabrics are not model year-correct, but are Buick fabrics, for example. The power steering pump is late model GM. The a/c compressor is Sanden, but mounted in the correct location and such.

In some respects, it sounds like your orientation might better fit into the Modified Division orientation, but they are not really that far from the 400 Point system judging, either. Be aware that unlike many other judging systems, the 400 Point system is a "deduct" system rather than an "add" system. There is no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Place, but point ranges for Gold, Silver, and Bronze (descending order). In this orientation, it can be possible to have a higher-scoring Gold level vehicle that can still be "Gold" with only a few indiscretions, but if too many build up, it could easily be "Silver" or "Bronze" . . . which might be a shame in some respects. So, read the BCA Judging Manual and see what you think.

If you might desire to be a member of the AACA, they have their own judging standards (which can coincide with the BCA standards, but might allow some things the BCA doesn't).

Some key advice might be to "Don't do anything you can't undo later" with respect to things like additional chrome engine accessories, interior items, or wheels/tires combinations. Two of out main participants in here, "Old-Tank" and "5563" are very well-versed in 1955 Buicks . . . how to correctly restore them and how to do some things to make them be better and more enjoyable vehicles to own and drive and show without incurring large points deducts in BCA 400 Point system judging . . . where BOTH have placed highly in the past, and still can.

So, download the BCA judging documents and see what you think. Then you can also do the same things for the AACA judging documents. In either case, you'll have to join the respective organizations in order to participate in their national meet show events. See what you think best fits your orientations and desires and proceed as desired.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest Old Nailhead]

The car is a 1956 Super 2d-hardtop.

Thanks for all the great advice. I will definately check into the modified class and in joining the Buick Club.

The Valve covers etc I have checked into are polished aluminium which makes them much more pricey than the chromed versions from Edelbrock and co. But they are made for the V8 322 Nailhead of my Buick (4-bbl) without anything needing to be altered. So if I wouldn't like them anymore I could just take them back of and put the original covers back on.

A lot to think about!

Nicole

[Bill Stoneberg]

You know, don't worry about points, make the car what you want it to be and as long as it tastefully done (in other words, no lime green sparkely seats and green shag carpeting) people will appreciate it.

Modified, hot rodded, restored or original, the car is yours to drive and enjoy and there is a place in the world and hobby for all involved.

[JohnD1956]

HI Niole, I have the same model car as you, with the black and white interior. As for the original seat style and covers, I have decided to do what you propose. Change the cloth for vinyl. But my plan involves changing the seat pattern to resemble the Convertible Super's Interior. That would have been all vinyl to begin with and from the picture I saw in the sales catalog, appears to be a straight-forward pattern that a shop could easily reproduce. I say easily not knowing anything about sewing. And I know I read somewhere that the super could be had with any one of three custom interiors, so it could be argued that this was one of the three.

However, I do not consider my car a show piece worthy of judging. I just plan to drive it till the world runs out of gas.

[Thriller]

Nicole,

A couple more points to consider.

As others have mentioned, the only judging that you would lose points for the changes you describe is the BCA 400 point judging. If you are looking at local car shows, it is typically either "people's choice" or "driver's choice" which just refer to which folks get to vote...they typically don't care about originality. If you are looking at wanting an authentic car as it rode off the assembly line, the BCA 400 point judging is probably best for you.

Judging can be a real turn-off for a lot of folks. For me, I have found that the last few items to correct get quite expensive, so you really have to consider how strict you want to be in that regard. Mild modifications can also lead you to consider the BCA modified judging, which would allow you to do the things you describe, while still potentially winning an award with the car at a BCA event.

Red would have been an optional colour for wheels in 1956. Body colour was also available, and I believe black. Choose which one you think will look best to you.

The seat fabric should generally be available...if not perfect, something close. The question you will want to ask is which you prefer. Personally, as a fat guy, I like cloth because it doesn't heat up in the summer sun like vinyl does, particularly an issue if I'm wearing shorts.

Good luck. Please feel free to share your story and photos in the Me And My Buick forum. We like pictures.

[Guest 1956 Nailhead]

Nicole,

Chances are that you won't be attending many BCA shows. You are planning on going to more local shows. I think you should just make it into the car you personally want it to be. You know my stance on this and well I can agree to all the changes you want to make. With but one exception.....please no Tahiti Coral on the wheels. Red please please please....I will do anything else you want to the car. Two options inclusive anything you want as long as the wheels are black or red as in dressage it is okay as long as it is black or black. One thing for sure it will be a beautiful car when we finish it and sounds awesome. This is going to be a long but fun project and we definitely appreciate all input from everyone on the list. We are pulling the transmission this week for rebuild. Soon the surgery begins to patch and remove cancerous sections. We will post pictures along the way and keep everyone up to date.

Jason

[Guest Rob McDonald]

NICOLE, that is so sweet how Jason jumped in to share your thread. I envy that the two of you are in this together. Those 400-point cars you might see at the national shows or on the Barrett-Jackson fantasy channel are not from the real world. Only the best of the best craftsmen work on those restorations, which often cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. They don't get driven on public roads for years after the work is done and then only when the gleam is gone and they're not drawing in the trophies like they used to. Please build your Buick the way you want it to be, then get out there and give us all the joy of seeing a great old car, cruising in its natural habitat.

[Guest 53Nailhead]

Most importantly, remember this is your Buick, you can do whatever you want, cause it's all yours and if you want to make it prettier than it was or keep it original it's up to you, I like to say my car is my trophy, it's a bigger dust collector that a stinking trophy though, Hope this all helps but btw what model is your Buick???????????

X2.....What 'Berta said

[Guest brh]

Nicole

Did not read this entire thread as the first response pretty much covers anything I am gonna say. Again, its great you have the courage to ask good questions. I have a 65 Skylark, I put radials on it because I drive it to shows. The car is all original except for what had to be replaced, it has great sentimental value to me. I don't own or drive this car for anyone else, just me. First show I took its rusted frame, non detailed engine, and radial tires to it won a bronze. By the way, on the way to a show I had to slam on the brakes at 60 MPH to avoid an accident, they can have the 4 points.

Build it for you, have fun and welcome.

[RICK YOUNG]

Welcome aboard.

I too like radial tires.

For interior cloth/vinyl try

Largest Selection of Cloth, Vinyl & Leather Automobile Upholstery - SMS Auto Fabrics

[SBRMD]

I have a question for all who have so magnanimously responded to this poster's original restore-or-rod question, and I am glad to see that there are several very knowledgeable and well-respected club members here to do so.

The following notion has been asserted on another board: that small non-original modifications to a car (say adding Buick road wheels to an Electra that was not available this way from the factory, or adding a remote passenger mirror from a later model where only a manual was originally available) actually "destroys the authenticity" of other correct specimens of the same model (say an identical correct Electra wearing it's original hubcaps) by promugating incorrect assumptions about what is factory-correct for that car among potential future buyers of the car, and among BCA judges at meets.

I personally think this is illogical and flatly wrong, that a minorly modified car does not affect the "authenticity" of it's correct sibling any more than adding a new screen door to a house affects the "authenticity" of the identical original house next door.

It's obvious, I think, to everyone that people can and should do what they want with their own cars; but this assertion would hold that when we do, we are actually hurting someone else's correct car. The latter doesn't make any sense to me. Very interested in what you all think about this, especially as people with offices and/or strong presences within the BCA.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Robin

Mpls MN

BCA #33891

Edited March 17, 2011 by SBRMD (see edit history)

[The Old Guy]

The simplest way to resolve the problem is to enjoy your Buick the way you want it , and do NOT worry what anyone else thinks

[SBRMD]

Joe, I personally don't give a darn what anybody thinks about what I do to one of my cars. The reason that I pose the question is that I am interested to know what people who are active in the BCA, who perhaps hold office (like Mr. Young, Mr. Stoneberg and others) think about this specific point in question. The point is being made by another BCA member; it's my belief that making such arguments publicly, besides being in fact wrong, creates an adverse, unwelcoming atmosphere in the club, alienates others, and potentially drives current and prospective members away. Therefore, I am soliciting opinions. What's yours?

[The Old Guy]

SBRMD

My personal belief is that the whols judging system needs a COMPLETE overhaul. We have judges that do not know enough , and while we have many that are competent, there are not enough of them.

I have stated numerous times that there should be judging teams made up of members familisr with the particulr years as they are the most knoweledgable about those cars. The BCA set up is that you can't judge a class if your car is in it.

I believe there should be seminars for members that want to know what is correct for their Buick , and the conductors of those seminars should know what is proper .

The national judging has been done in the past by many members that really try, but do not know what is right.

I have beat this subject to death over the years, and I am sorry if I come off in a negative way , but The BCA has evolved into a different organization than the one I joined in 1969. There is no such thing as "sstatus Quo " and I realize you have to move in some direction, I just don't care for the direction it is going.

[buick5563]

The simplest way to resolve the problem is to enjoy your Buick the way you want it , and do NOT worry what anyone else thinks

Exactly!

Steve, to your question of what the board members think, I think that they both echoed these sentiments. I personally think that this board is very interested in growing the club and NOT excluding anybody regardless of modifications they make.

The title of this thread is a bit misleading because as NTX stated above, you can have a hot rod (street rod, Kustom, etc) AND a show car with the same car.

The kind of mods that Nicole was wanting to make didn't magically turn it into a hot rod, just a slightly modified driver, which is what many of us have in our garages.

[SBRMD]

Mike and Joe: I completely agree with you guys, and I think you're right Mike in the estimation of what the board members think. Nevertheless, I would like both of your specific opinions (and the opinions of as many others as possible) to this specific question:

Does a small "incorrect" modification to one person's car actually "destroy the authenticity" of a different person's absolutely factory-correct, unmodified car, by promulgating incorrect assumptions about what's correct for that model, among future buyers and BCA judges?

This is the specific assertion being put forward, which the person refuses to back away from. I personally think this is as logical as calling a bird a fish, because the last bird you saw was wearing a fish suit.

[Guest my3buicks]

To clarify SBTMD's question and concern - Since it is me he is referring to

My thoughts and feelings are incorrect items put on a car such as the chrome road wheels, sport steering wheels( for examples), and similar non-authentic items do over time melt and blur the lines over what is and what is not correct in a specific car line when these alterations become popular and constant. One example, How many times do we see road wheels on an Electra of the 60's or early 70's even on the show field? While the judges catch the wheels (hopefully) that person walking around getting ready to restore his car sees the pretty wheels and thinks they are correct - thus perpetuating another incorrect restoration or car. To keep the same example: We see it all the time on eBay, people assume these modifications are correct and listing even says original Buick wheels, when the car changes hands the uniformed buyer thinks his car is authentic and correct only to get upset when he shows the car and finds out they are incorrect. He gets mad at the judges, not the person he bought the car from.

Simply put, "popular" non-authentic alterations that we routinely see on cars can over time blur the lines of what is authentic or not.

He has blown this way out of proportion and is assaulting a personal vendetta against me on another forum.

I gave my opinion and he can't accept my opinion for what it is, and has to prove my opinion to be wrong since it differs from his. It's an OPINION!!!!

I will not respond again on this thread as he will continue his assault and to make it personal and I would ask that other forum members do the same.

Edited March 17, 2011 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[SBRMD]

Well, glad Keith appeared, to state it for himself. I originally started a thread on BuickCenturion about how to install a '75 b-body passenger remote mirror on a '71, which Keith felt frustrated enough about to hijack with a tantrum about his feelings (see above, and feel free to go there if interested), and when I refused to let him blame me and others for his frustrations, you can see the theorized results.

There's no vendetta here, no assault, just asking the assembled for opinions. That is the nature of a forum. Chose this thread because it rather directly addressed the issue, and several well-known members of the BCA had already been here. Asked the question cleanly and didn't name names.

Differences of opinion are the spice of life, and to be encouraged. I do think that accusing others of "destroying the authenticity" of your own car, by modifying their cars, is an inappropriate and uncollegial stance to take, on top of being factually wrong. And in the setting of a club that is worried about membership and has numerous public debates about how to shore up same, such attitudes are to be held up for scrutiny, and if indicated, scorn. How many people, prospective and current members, are alienated by such heat? When I pointed out to Keith that I thought he was being offensive, he replied "offensive, maybe...do I care, no.." (close enough?). He also went on to say he loves controversy, and that my taking exception to his assertions was "amatuer hour", that I should "keep dishing". Now he asks for you all to be silent to this question. Why?

What do you all think of this particular question of authenticity?

Edited March 17, 2011 by SBRMD (see edit history)

[Thriller]

I think there is a lot of "correctness" going on here.

First, I think Joe said it quite well - my opinion is strong, but I am concerned about the quality of the judging. Judge knowledge is important. Also important is understanding the judging process and what the judging forms mean. Every judging form I've had thus far has led me to ask what I think are serious questions about the process. I can understand someone being picky (even though judges are told "don't kill the car") and I can certainly understand some items being missed. However, there are some basics like mandatory deductions take all the points noted. Unfortunately it seems we have some judges who are too knowledgeable to grace the judging school with their presence in case they might learn something.

I think Keith is also right to a degree. What proportion of "old Buick" owners are BCA members (or we could add in AACA as well)? What proportion of members have their cars judged and / or are judges? Of those judges, how many are truly knowledgeable? Unless correctness is documented well (and perhaps that is something the BCA should consider assembling with video / photographic evidence), there is a risk that someone will do something to their car, sell it as a correct car, and the error in knowledge is passed on. That is based on assumptions though. How often do we hear chuckle about ads that are quite ridiculous to the informed (say an "original" car with an SBC where a Nailhead should reside)? If the buyer knows their stuff, the error doesn't propagate, but if they are new to the hobby, or come to Buick from a lesser brand, I can see Keith's point being valid.

Steve is also correct. There's a local '66 Wildcat that is customized. I bug the owner (a fellow BCA member) about his pimped-out 'Cat. Does the chrome under his hood make mine incorrect (ignoring the "unacceptable" Nailhead colour)? No. That isn't to stop anyone from making assumptions, but you know what they say about Ass U Me.

The problem with the argument is simply whether or not there is the "gold standard" to ensure that we know what is original. For now, the closest we come is a combination of BCA judging manual, BCA judging school, and knowledgeable judges. This is somewhat fallible at present as we know errors are made.

I'm sure I've blathered on longer than anyone wanted to read....

[Guest 1956 Nailhead]

Hello All,

Uhm...okay don't know what brought all that about. However, although we are new to a Buick we have seen and I am sure will continue to see this in many forms of exhibition or showing of any sort. Something that may be of assistance here would be to possibly make a publishment of each year Buick with what parts were correct and acceptable for "correctness, authenticity". Here it is in a nut shell if you can't explain why one particular car "won" over another then the ones losing will not understand and only lose interest and walk away. You often see this in many organizations involving showing such as cat shows. If you don't understand why your exhibition was not chosen, then your organization will not grow as people will quickly lose interest. Me, however I like authentic to a point but you know I also like what I like. We do our research and ask questions and trust me I can get annoying with my questions but you know what I get the answers I seek. Not all people are going to be as insistent and persistent as we are. I have a 56' Plymouth as well. It is 100% original and I like it that way. This 56R we are going to make what we want it to be. It is going to be original buttttttt........we are going to do mods that we want it to have without destroying the integrity of the originality. When we have sank 15K plus into this project you can darn well bet after all the hours, blood, sweat and tears we invest I am not going to care if you don't like it as I can agree to disagree. Either way it is going to be a sweet car and well I am going on and on and I am neutral as I agree with each on points in this. Anyway, all have a good night and we appreciate all the input. It may be pink but hey.....it's paid for. We will keep you updated as this project progresses. Tranny removal to commence tomorrow AM need to get some rest.

Jason

"P.S. Drive it like you own it!!!"

[Thriller]

Jason - good attitude.

In case you aren't aware, BCA judging is a points based system against how it would have come off the factory line. The cars don't compete against each other (in theory), but each one is evaluated for authenticity, condition, and workmanship of its components. They are not judged against each other to determine which is best.

[SBRMD]

Thanks for your responses, Jason and Derek.

Certainly, there's lots of issues around judging and "authenticity". And I agree with Keith that as people do "inauthentic" things to their cars, confusion results. Of course, this is always the case with any collector cars: Corvettes, GTOs, Mustangs, Deusenbergs, etc. It's always up to the people who are really into that model to make it their business what's correct.

But is it a fair claim to say that people who modify their own cars (making them inarguably "inauthentic") actually do harm ("Destroy the authenticity") to others' "correct" cars?

Mr. Young? NTX? Mr. Stoneberg? Roberta?

[Bill Stoneberg]

Saturday morning and I get a call about a thread on the forum..

My thoughts are that the judging system is not perfect. Too many people dont pass the knowledge on that they have or we make it too hard for them to do so. Take my own case, I have restored a 1950 Buick Wagon, I know what is right on the car and what is wrong because I spent the time researching and talking to others over the course of 10 years. I pass it along as asked and in judging but its not easy for who wants to restore the car to find the information. Its not like the Corvette club where they have a book where every little paint mark is listed. I am glad we are not that anal about things, but we have to find a way to keep the knowledge.

Does my incorrect fuel filter (on my wagon) or Alternator and extra fan (on my 47) make your car any less ? In a perfect world it shouldn;t but someone looking at my car on the showfield with its incorrectness, then at the banquet or in the magazine seeing me get my award figures that it must be correct. Only people who have done the research knows about the 1 pt (I assume) deduction for the fuel filter.

60's cars I know very little about but I image it would be even harder. So many options and models. You would really have to do your due diligence.

So in response to the question posed "But is it a fair claim to say that people who modify their own cars (making them inarguably "inauthentic") actually do harm ("Destroy the authenticity") to others' "correct" cars?"

It depends...

Most of the time I dont agree with this statement as I look at each car individually but if you see a trend develop (all cars on the show field now have incorrect fuel filters), then I would.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history)

[old-tank]

So in response to the question posed "But is it a fair claim to say that people who modify their own cars (making them inarguably "inauthentic") actually do harm ("Destroy the authenticity") to others' "correct" cars?"

It depends...

Most of the time I dont agree with this statement as I look at each car individually but if you see a trend develop (all cars on the show field now have incorrect fuel filters), then I would.

Individuals that do this are seldom the problem. It is the well known restorers and suppliers that contribute to the problem. Take a restorer/supplier in NC---his 'kits' for a 55 Century convertible are pretty, pretty expensive and pretty much wrong. The problem is that his stuff is now the standard. Some would argue: "that is all that is available"...no-o-o, do the research and then go to the west coast for the correct material and have it constructed locally.

Willie

[NTX5467]

"Authenticity"? "Correctness?" Yikes!

Back when radial tires and halogen headlights were being discussed and lobbied-for by some BCA members . . . the justification for the BCA allowing these items on particular earlier model Buicks as . . . The AACA allows them. Now, should that really matter? The AACA, with all due respect, is not the BCA and vice versa. Then, at the 1996 BCA National Meet in Plano, I heard a casual discussion of the tire/headlight issue in the main hallway of the Plano Centre. The "answer", as presented by our Office Manager at the time (I believe) was that "For Buicks, the BCA should have higher standards of correctness/authenticity than all other vehicle clubs which might also allow Buicks on their showfield for judging." (paraphrased) After hearing that orientation, it all made sense to me! Also, in those earlier times of the BCA, there were NO modified vehicles allowed to be a part of any BCA-related judging (they had to be done separately, not a part of the BCA activities per se). Now, with the expanding "divisons" of the BCA, such modified vehicles have a place to be at BCA National Meets.

Authenticity and correctness have their place in the grand scheme of things, to be sure. As our vehicles are "historical artifacts", keeping them correct CAN be important for many reasons--reasons which not everybody might subscribe to or participate in.

Now, let's consider GM Replacement Parts, purchased from franchised GM dealerships or as NOS items. There have been times when a rear view mirror, lh side, might have had a carline divisional emblem on it, as what was installed on the assembly line when the vehicle was initially built. This might be the SAME mirror as other divisions used on a particular body series (A, B, C, D, X, F, etc.), but with their respective divisional logo on it. If the car's mirror was damaged and needed replacement several years later, there was a good chance that the original part number was superceded to a "generic" mirror with no logo on it . . . across the board. So, you can have one vehicle with the logo'd chrome mirror and another vehicle just like it with a mirror without the logo (due to the wreck damage and the correct replacement mirror from GM Parts). Or perhaps the "other car" got the generic mirror on the assembly line as the assembly plant had to close a parts shortage with parts from GM Parts rather than the main vendor, to keep the assembly line going--the "other car" got lucky. This is one example, but there have been MANY over the years, even on unseen parts (as shocks/struts and steering colums, for example--which the BCA does not judge).

The other thing is that in the case of these chrome mirrors, the first model years of a particular vehicle might have used the one with the logo on it. The third model year might have used a generic mirror. As time progressed, the logo'd mirror was replaced "in service" by the plain one. Therefore, the ONLY way to get a logo'd mirror for the other side would have been VERIFIABLE NOS earlier-model year parts or get one from the salvage yard. OR the other quirk of things might have been that ONLY the lh mirror was logo'd from the factory, yet the companion rh production mirror was not.

To me, the INTENT of Keith's statement is that as certain "knowledgeable" owners change things (highly visible things, or some not quite so highly-visible), others take this to be "correct", considering that they perceive the particular vehicle owner KNOWS what's supposed to be on the vehicle. As Old-Tank also points out, not all vintage vehicle suppliers/vendors know what is completely accurate in all cases, either! Other than what Old-Tank mentions, I recall a particular engine color being an issue one year, although the paint was purchased from a reputable vintage vehicle vendor who claimed (on the show field!) that it was correct . . . until an un-restored engine was found--the owner was complaining that he'd gotten dinged for "incorrect engine color".

Here's an observation of mine. Back in the 1950s and later, "typical Buick owners" considered themselves affluent enough to have normal maintenance or repairs performed on their vehicles "by others". This might have depended upon if the particular model of Buick was a "Special" or a higher trim level or if the particular owner was a "tinkerer" or similar. In other words, the cars were purchased and driven with little real consideration of the many things which we are now concerned with as restorers/refurbishers/ modifiers of these same vehicles in more recent times. If the upholstery needed replacing, what was at the local trim shop was probably used rather than special-ordering more of the same fabric which had just failed. If new radiator or heater hoses were needed, they got new worm-drive clamps rather than the "cussed" factory clamps. That's just the way I saw things as I grew up and hung around service stations (while Dad was getting our cars serviced, or which friends who worked there later on, or in dealerships whose technicians wanted to do "a better job" than the factory did). And, then just as now, there were people who didn't care ANYTHING about correctness as long as the vehicle ran reliably and wasn't always needing attention.

The other dynamic is that with little individual product knowledge, the vehicle owner now has to rely upon what "others" claim is correct for their particular vehicle, which can be an invitation to further angst when what "others" claim is correct is definitively determines to not be accurate (as in the engine color issue). These were my observations, your observations might have been different, which I respect. Luckily, the BCA Judging Handbook covers many of these things!!!

Another later observation has been that some owners don't really care about what is "correct", but desire to place their restored vehicles in judged classes where such correctness is important. When they don't win the award they feel they should have, ask for their judging sheet, then see why . . . it's explosion time as they learn that their lack of attention to details (other than the obvious paint finishes, and similar) as others in the same class did (who won awards). This gets back to Stoneberg's comment about "due dilligence" about what is correct . . . PLUS getting information from as many credible sources as you can.

And then there's been the observation that what people did to their cars in certain regions of the country varied from what others did in other parts of the country. The "In Thing" for where you lived.

I found out in the 1990s that there can be some pretty bizarre definitions of "stock". I was administering an open show at my workplace. A man entered his customized current model year Chevy Sportside pickup. Customizing was done by a conversion company (exterior paint, custom aftermarket seat, sound system, wheels, tires, etc.). The owner had added several "adornments" to the underhood area. These included colored anodized bolt head covers, braided wraps for the various hoses, and some other things from what might have been a speed shop catalog. He ALSO took aluminum foil and carefully glued it to his master cylinder, to give it an "aluminum" look.

He questioned why I classified his vehicle as "Custom". I showed him my point system for vehicle classifications, which I'd refined for other shows I'd run the judging for. He laughed and said that in the pickup truck club he was a member of, they classified his vehicle as "Stock" as there were no body changes to it (non-factory paint, chrome items, etc. didn't matter). He might not have been happy to show against fully-customized vehicles, but he understood the classification system, which is what I cared about.

I made some comments (recently) about determining just "which game you wanted to play" BEFORE an owner restored or modified a particular vehicle. The other side of this is to not do something to limit any later options you might desire to pursue in the future. Therefore, IF you only want to show in AACA shows, follow their judging rules. If you want to also show in the BCA shows, then the BCA rules would be the ones to follow, which would also most probably allow the vehicle to show well at AACA shows. If you desire to get into the ISCA events, they have their own orientations and classes, too. Or if you just want to have a vehicle which you can reliably take on local cruises, rod runs, tours, etc., you can see what others have done and do your vehicle to your tastes.

As for the "options" issue, that would mean that you don't cut something up which will be hard to replace later on if you might decide to do something different OR sell the vehicle to somebody with such aspirations. When doing a "full tilt custom", please put the unneeded parts on eBay so somebody who might need them can get them. There have been some beautiful full-tilt custom Buicks over the years!

One thing I liked about going to weekend cruises over the years, meeting people and becoming friends with them, was that not everybody got their vehicles done completely "all at once". Many drove their vehicles, enjoyed them, and did upgrades as they could or desired. Seeing these things progress was fun! Information was shared, both ways, and it was an enjoyable situation. There were also some neat vehicles which would show up, which people had built in the "pre-wave the plastic" era--some modified and others "correct" bone stock.

Some of the most interesting were the "Day 2 Restorations". Where the vehicle was correctly restored, but certain period-correct things were added as would have happened after you got the car home from the dealership. For racers, this would have included a panel of under-dash gauges and a tachometer (mounted appropriately). For others, aftermarket wheels and tires. Again, this was 30 years ago when some of those older parts were still hiding on shelves in garages or workshops, unlike our Internet-enabled modern times. Plus, I suspect that those who had them were glad that the parts would see the light of day as they had in the past.

So . . . the automotive hobby is quite large enough to accomodate almost every orientation for vehicle restoration and shows. If the owner is really interested in particular national-level judged show events, they need to determine "which game to play" and build the vehicle accordingly. There is NO ONE universal set of guidelines!

As I mentioned earlier, I concur with the "blurring of the lines" statement. This is the result of authenticity and correctness being perceived incorrectly, just because of WHO might be claiming something is completely and credibly correct when they might not be. One example would be the "POA Valve Kits", which convert the earlier POA valve system to a CCOT a/c system--one vendor had this "kit" listed as a "POA valve" rather than a kit on his website! Another would be underhood paint gloss levels . . . the glossy finished parts show better at indoor shows when compared to a factory-correct finish parts. The general public perceives the glossier finish to be "correct" as it looks better to them, so they desire to emulate that on THEIR car when they do it . . . which can also expand to noted restoration shops who want their customers to be completely satisfied, but not worried about correctness or authenticity in the same orientation as if the vehicles were to be judged in particular national level marque car show events. WHICH game do you want to play?

The other point I made was that you can have a "show car" and also have a "hot rod" in the same vehicle. I have a friend who restored several Mopar muscle cars and won trophies at national level Mopar show events. That was his goal, so he continued to show them for another year or so, as the restoration was still fresh. THEN, out came the other set of factory wheels with the BFG Drag Radials and he ran them in Muscle Car Challenge events, including Norwalk, OH, and WON. When the engines were rebuilt, allowances were made for the future use, for example, as theses from "bare shell to completed vehicle" restorations. When they were raced, they still looked like they were ready for a show, but with some rubber globs on the bottom of the rear quarter panels. Same car, different "shows", but still cosmetically "correct" and "authentic" for all to see.

To me, the real issue which causes the blurred lines between correct and perceived-to-be-correct is that IF the owners know what they changed, they should note it on their "display cards" as "Upgrades from Stock". THAT might help explain some things, IF those that read them really understand why that card's there with that information on it. Sometimes, the owners also have incorrect knowledge, which can further complicate things . . . just like trying to explain to a swap meet vendor that the grille he's trying sell you for a '62 Chevy Impala is reallly for a '63 Chevy Impala (for example). When questioned about that, he said "That's what my buddy said it came off of", as the buddy is "the expert" (in the friend's eyes) and obviously knows more about what it fits rather than the person who needs a '62 Impala grille. I learned that it's much better to say "Let me look around some more", thank them for their time, and walk off rather than for a rank stranger to explain what the part reallly fits and invalidate their buddy's statements.

If I offended anyone with my comments and observations, my apologies. As stated, these are MY observations and yours might vary.

Respectfully,

NTX5467

Edited March 22, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Thriller]

I guess another point in all this is incorrect use of the words "restore" and "restoration". I always understood it to be about bringing back to original condition. If you look at a dictionary online now, the definition will also include something to the effect of making it better than new. I can't say whether my understanding was incorrect or whether the definition has morphed.

My pet peeve in all this is automotive writers who use restoration to talk about putting disc brakes on drum brake cars and other "enhancements" which are not restoration, but are modification. From my perspective, to each his own. That is hard to take sometimes. However, when the folks who should know (such as automotive writers) use the words incorrectly, it compounds the errors.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

NTX5467, you are , as usual, right on. I always enjoy reading your " observations". Keep up the good work.

Ben

[Guest 54fins]

I would like to throw in my 2 cents, for what it's worth, since I have judged and been judged.

To me, to me there is only one definition of original- unrestored and not updated. However, those are far and few. Even a repaint- sorry, no longer original.

Next step, restored as original. This covers the 400 point judging. a stored, perfect showroom original would be 400 points and should be virtually impossible to obtain. Restored correctly with all NOS parts and correct paint matches would be a senior. I would also argue for correct tires like bias ply. Most Seniors are not original! The paint, rubber leather and cloth are at best done "as original".

I would like to get a senior, but I'm a few points short. The flashy cars get judged hard, as they should be. I know what I need to do to get the senior and they should not bend the judging for me. And yes, lots of cars were judged lightly. It's not a perfect system but it's as good as feasible. No complaints here, my car is over restored yet a senior is still possible. Lets face it, all the original soft components are pretty much shot. I think the judjing allows for that and safety upgrades.

It takes alot of time, effort and money to do a senior. I have the same delima- is it worth it? That is a personal decision. I do like the "buick my way" class and there is a driver class, and you may see me there at the nationals in the future. I unfortunately cannot resist driving my car and it will begin the downhill slide. One judge noted- you drive your car! My reply- If you don't drive it it ain't a car.

My suggestion- build your car for you. If it is all original, I would advise trying to keep it that way. But I would also rather modify the car for everyday driving than let it rust out in a barn. And I have no problem with the remains of a car becoming a rod. But I think the distinction of "original" and "restored as original" are 2 completely different things. Also, the judging attempts to preserve some history. I think it has to be respected, even if it doesn't quite turn out the way you wanted. It's really the only process to sort through what truely is correct and not. EVeryone learns alot. I have to commend the BCA people that put alot of time and effort into this. If you don't like something, get involved and try to improve it!

[buick5563]

I would like to get a senior, but I'm a few points short. The flashy cars get judged hard, as they should be.

Incorrect.

[Guest 54fins]

do accept my apologies as my previous statement is a bit offbase. There is no intention of Judging any class or car to different standards.

Given the shear number of cars, people etc. I'm amazed that it can even happen in the course of a day.

The issue is no matter what the standards are, there will always be disagreement. My attempt to compliment ended up with a typical off base comment! I guess it shows how difficult a job this is. Again, my compliments to the judges, they somehow accomplish an impossible task. My personal opinion is I felt the judging was quite well done.

[NTX5467]

Incorrect.

I believe that 5563's response of "Incorrect" to your "I want to get a senior" comment is due to the fact that you don't get "A Senior", you FIRST get a "Gold-Level" award, for which you might be a "few points short", due to certain things being counted-off for. The KEY THING is that you first get the BCA 400 Point Award, THEN if the car attains a Gold Level point score at the next BCA National Meet, THEN you get the Senior Award in addition to the regular BCA award (which would be "New Senior" for the first time). With a Senior Award, the vehicle must continue to receive Gold Level awards at later (see the BCA Judging Manual for how often the vehicle must be re-certified to maintain "Senior" status) BCA National Meets IF the Senior Status if to be maintained from the original presentation's year. The BCA Judging Manual should detail these things.

The "continuing Senior" status is about making sure the condition of the vehicle does not deteriorate from what it first was. It's the owner's determination if they desire to do this AND have the car judged each year to seek to maintain the "Senior" status. 5563 has verified that you CAN drive your car to a BCA National Meet, receive a Gold Award, drive it home, and drive it to the next BCA National Meet AND the same vehicle receive a Gold AND Senior award. So, it's not always the trailer queens that get Senior certifications!

So, I perceive it was the fact that it appeared that you thought you could get a "Senior" award first, rather than having to get the BCA Gold award the first year and then the Senior status the next year if the car still scored in the Gold Award range. I believe that's what got 5563's rpms up. Perhaps he might explain further when things get back down to base idle?

As for "the flashy cars get judged hard, as they should be" comment, in the BCA 400 Point Judging, rather than other judgings where there are only 1 1st Place, 1 2nd Place, 1 3rd Place, etc. award scenario, how many vehicles get certain level awards is totally OPEN. If no cars reach the Gold level, no Gold Level awards are presented, if 25 cars receive enough points for a Silver Level award, then 25 Silver Level awards are presented . . . and so on for the Bronze Level awards. Therefore, ALL cars receive the same level of judging efforts--period--rather than as it might be at another show event where the number of each level award is more rigid. The BCA 400 Point Judging system, therefore, has a much more level playing field in this respect, but it also makes predicting how many of each award to build (BEFORE the awards presentations happens!) very hard to do. Still, the end result is that ALL vehicles should receive the same level of scrutiny . . . as even the "flashy cars" can have glaring faults which might well take them from the suspected Gold Level all the way to barely getting a Bronze Level award, if any award at all.

NTX5467

Edited March 23, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[buick5563]

Hello All,

Uhm...okay don't know what brought all that about.

Tangents always happens Jason.

I will continue on the current one....

Fins,

My comment was not intended to bum you out. You and I had several drinks in Colorado at the Nationals. You are a nice guy. But your car had errors in correctness that didn't involve over-restoration. I LOVED your idea about using colored truck bed lining on the underside. Many BCA judges wouldn't even see that, because they are supposed to only "take a knee". BUT, if they did see it, you would get dinged. It is not my intention to tear your beautiful Skylark apart, but it was a Silver from a (here we go again) "correctness" standpoint.

Willis,

You can get a Gold Senior the first time showing. You need to score 390 (plus or minus) with no major deductions. I believe you were stating the AACA rules re: Gold then Senior.

Only proper research will get you the Senior. Not super-shiny paint and the brightest chrome.

[NTX5467]

5563, haven't ever looked at AACA rules, that's just the way I thought it was--no more, no less. Just seemed like a good progression to me. Thanks for the clarification.

If somebody could figure out how to get the correct texture for the spray-on bedliner material, which would closely match that of the vintage undercoat, that would be one good upgrade that would keep its looks and still look correct. Might make DynaMat obsolete, as a panel-stiffener/sound deadener. When the "correct" stuff came out in the 1990s, it still looked like something I'd see in the pasture, with all due respect.

Take care!

NTX5467

[Guest Rob McDonald]

SHEESH, I'm glad that I'll never own a car worth judging. Nicole, Jason, please just build your Buick the way you'd like it to be and don't think twice about points. The big smiles and thumbs up that you'll collect are worth way more that those trophies (which are mostly just shiny plastic, truth to be told).

[Guest 54fins]

Unfortunately my point went off on a tangent or two! Build your car to suit you.

The judging is necessary, and can be fun. But it's also not everyone's goal. Mine was to build my rust bucket to suit me, which then was to enter the modified class. It evolved into the 400 point, so I wanted to hit 380 (95 points on a 100 scale) Look, I am very proud of my silvers. My car wasn't a Senior but perhaps someday, if I have that motivation.

My suggestion would be to avoid molesting anything that is truely original, but even that is open to interpretation. I did meet alot of people in the judging that don't seem to be having fun. Well, I had fun both getting a Silver and Judging, learned alot too. It's probably less than a $20.00 plaque, but a good memory. My Rat rod is also alot of fun too. I wouldn't POO-POO judging any more than the overly anal should try to actually have some fun with thier cars. I guess you have to make your own definition of fun!

[Thriller]

Now, not wanting to take this too much further on a tangent, but are we having agreement / disagreement on the statement that the "flashy cars get judged hard"?

If the Skylarks aren't judged hard, then why are they separate from class H? There are a few differences from the other models, but not so much that a knowledgeable class H judge would be clueless about. It could be a numbers game in terms of how many typically show up. As soon as you have more than one judging team, you'll get variation in how things are interpreted and judged.

I'm tired, so I'm not sure I'm making much sense....

[old-tank]

Now, not wanting to take this too much further on a tangent, but are we having agreement / disagreement on the statement that the "flashy cars get judged hard"?

If the Skylarks aren't judged hard, then why are they separate from class H? There are a few differences from the other models, but not so much that a knowledgeable class H judge would be clueless about. It could be a numbers game in terms of how many typically show up. As soon as you have more than one judging team, you'll get variation in how things are interpreted and judged.

I'm tired, so I'm not sure I'm making much sense....

They better not be judged harder, since they were just production cars...no more, no less.

In Arizona in 1993 at the award ceremony the announcer stated that there were no senior cars in the Skylark class because "these fine cars were judged harder 'as they should be'". Then the booing started (probably by some Skylark owner) and then spread to the whole room. It is my understanding that got straightened out. If not, I may go back to judging and request that class.

Willie

[NTX5467]

I wasn't there, in AZ that year, but from what I read later, there were many things which didn't go "right", with all due respect.

ALL vehicles have been an assemblage of parts, assembled (generally) by human beings, in different plants, at different times of the day, and so forth. The earlier vehicles were not necessarily designed to be assembled easily, either, by observation. Nor were they really designed "to be worked on" later. All of these factors, individually or in various combinations, can sometimes conspsire to result in things not being "perfect" in all cases . . . even IF we might desire to remember them as such. The seat fabrics might have been sewn perfectly, with the pleats in the lean back and the bottom cushion aligning very nicely, but then there was that sealer run on the rear window gasket. Or the deck lid latch you had to slam to get to stay closed, rather than just a gentle push. Back then, we were usually so consumed in the pride of ownership of a particular brand of vehicle, a particular model, with a particular engine and transmission, or if it had a rear speaker for the radio . . . than if all of the body panel fit seams were of a particular width everywhere on the vehicle, for example. Even the sound of the exhaust system got more attention that body lines all matching!

In more modern times, when "restoring" these vehicles, the things that were "a part of the breed" suddenly are "not good enough" and have to be made perfect . . . or so it seems. Certainly, a door that's slightly out of adjustment can be fixed, just as it could have been when the vehicle was new. But I don't recall people brazing-up door trim molding holes to re-drill them so the moldings would line up perfectly with the others on that side of the car . . . as an example.

Derek, "restore" for cars would be the same as for computer software which might have attracted a problem. The computer uses a "restore point" which is of a particular earlier date, just as to restore a car would be to do similar with condition and other aspects of the vehicle . . . without regard to what the starting point of the "restore" process might be. NOTHING about "making it better than original", just "as good as original" . . . or in the case of the compute software, as good as it was at a particular earlier point in time.

Enjoy!

NTX5467