PreWar Mercedes Benz

[K8096]

Interesting detail I just noticed.   Look closely at the headlights.    Look familiar?   They're 1929/30 Model M Stutz Ryan Lites with flat lenses installed.   The filigree on the tops of the rims is the giveaway.   You can also just barely see the jewel on the left side light in the 3/4 front view below, as well as the socket for where the tie bar goes on the right side light.       

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by K8096 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

On 7/1/2022 at 10:25 AM, George K said:

Independent front, swing rear axle trucks with blowers and beautiful bodies built on them. What the Bud Cohen auction started has run its course. That’s a better than forty year run.

 

George,  I agree they shift like trucks,  at least with me at the wheel,  but I think with the 4 wheel independent suspension they are one of the best riding prewar cars?

Edited July 3, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I've gone through the RM cars and I'm well familiar with the Gooding Cab A.    The question of the day would be do you buy a RHD car if it is a bargain?     In Mercedes world the RHD cars are discounted because the primary markets are LHD and most were built that way.   My friends with RHD cars say it makes no driving difference.   Not sure how I feel about it.

[George K]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

George,  I agree they shift like trucks,  at least with me at the wheel,  but I think with the 4 wheel independent suspension they are one of the best riding prewar cars?

No doubt. General Motors bought a 380K and dismantled it to study the suspension system. I always liked the front suspension arms as they were so beautifully made. Chassis is so stiff nothing rolls or twists. 

[alsancle]

[George K]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I've gone through the RM cars and I'm well familiar with the Gooding Cab A.    The question of the day would be do you buy a RHD car if it is a bargain?     In Mercedes world the RHD cars are discounted because the primary markets are LHD and most were built that way.   My friends with RHD cars say it makes no driving difference.   Not sure how I feel about it.

All depends on what criteria you’re using to decide. Mature markets are pure perception. Comes down to which do you what more the money or the car. So many of these investment grade cars just sit. The old saying -You know how make a small fortune in old cars , start with a big one. Let me know what constitutes a bargain.

[edinmass]

I don’t think there will be one single bargain. The question is will there be any real sales. Or will it be chandelier bidding to try and support the market and the reserves. These are great cars, I don’t think anybody doubts the cost to restore one or maintain one. It’s a car guys car, no one wakes up this morning and says I want to buy a 500 or 540 K. It takes years of car collecting to stick your toe in this water. Virtually no owner can maintain one. Which means you need to be in a good relationship with a shop, or have your own full-time capable guy. I’d rather restore three Dusenburgs, than  just one of these. Whether the market is up, down, or holding steady…….. it’s just too much heavy iron in a particular category. So if there aren’t a whole bunch of no sales, we will know what the new threshold is. We will have the answer in eight weeks. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

28 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I don’t think there will be one single bargain. The question is will there be any real sales. Or will it be chandelier bidding to try and support the market and the reserves. These are great cars, I don’t think anybody doubts the cost to restore one or maintain one. It’s a car guys car, no one wakes up this morning and says I want to buy a 500 or 540 K. It takes years of car collecting to stick your toe in this water. Virtually no owner can maintain one. Which means you need to be in a good relationship with a shop, or have your own full-time capable guy. I’d rather restore three Dusenburgs, than  just one of these. Whether the market is up, down, or holding steady…….. it’s just too much heavy iron in a particular category. So if there aren’t a whole bunch of no sales, we will know what the new threshold is. We will have the answer in eight weeks. 

I have heard the same thing about Bugatti. Once you’ve gone through a eight cylinder MB and have a solid fuel system without the overly complicated radial piston fuel pump their like taking care of any truck. One thing for sure is don’t jump the blower in low gear. Know a guy who did and he split low gear in half. Tragic flaw that an internal key way lines up with the bottom of the outside gear tooth. A car is just a car.

[540K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 It’s a car guys car, no one wakes up this morning and says I want to buy a 500 or 540 K. It takes years of car collecting to stick your toe in this water. 

And then there's me, the exception to the rule. Other than an E-Type roadster, I had never bought a classic, much less pre-war, before buying a war-damaged 500 K chassis to go with the coachwork I had commissioned before I had anything to put it on. Much more than a toe, I jumped in the deep end wearing a straightjacket and lead shoes. Turned out okay. So far.

Edited July 3, 2022 by 540K (see edit history)

[540K]

[alsancle]

You Craig are definitely one in 1 million!

 

EDIT:  I just thought of another guy I know who bought his first prewar car when he was 36 and it was a 500k!

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

I have heard the same thing about Bugatti. Once you’ve gone through a eight cylinder MB and have a solid fuel system without the overly complicated radial piston fuel pump their like taking care of any truck. One thing for sure is don’t jump the blower in low gear. Know a guy who did and he split low gear in half. Tragic flaw that an internal key way lines up with the bottom of the outside gear tooth. A car is just a car.

 

There was a time,  actually not that many years ago that I was 100% in the plumb around the Junkers Jumo pump and run it on an electric buried in the tank.     I've gotten religion in my old age and realize the only way those cars will every run right with the blower is to setup way it was originally.

 

You can still put the pump in the tank to help with starting,  but I would send my pump to Germany to have it rebuilt (I think Rolf does them?).  

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

I have heard the same thing about Bugatti. Once you’ve gone through a eight cylinder MB and have a solid fuel system without the overly complicated radial piston fuel pump their like taking care of any truck. One thing for sure is don’t jump the blower in low gear. Know a guy who did and he split low gear in half. Tragic flaw that an internal key way lines up with the bottom of the outside gear tooth. A car is just a car.

 

The other thing  - I think the owners manual specifically tells you not to run the blower in 1st and maybe 2nd also.  Only in 3rd or 4th.

[TG57Roadmaster]

The Minerva sport phaeton by Murphy appeared in the April 1930 issue of SOCIAL magazine, published in La Habana. Apparently the Castagna Mercedes-Benz was owned by Al Jolson.

 

 

“This latest model, from one of the most important European factories - Belgium - is one of the highest exponents of modern automobile engineering. Its smooth suspension makes it one of the most comfortable in the world.  The almost absolute absence of engine noise has been the standard with which it has achieved worldwide popularity. The bodywork of this model is manufactured by Murphy, of California.
(Courtesy of “Minerva Autos Inc.”, N.Y.)”

The caption for the Mercedes-Benz…

“This formidable German factory introduces us to its famous model "SS", of 250 HP with which they can obtain effortlessly 107 MPH. Bodied by the most notable of Italian designers : Castagna.  This extraordinary model is a cabriolet convertible, sport, for 4 passengers.  Its speed records on European tracks are currently the most remarkable.
(Courtesy of "Mercedes-Benz Cg." Inc., N.Y.)”

 

TG

[edinmass]

 

I think my statement still stands...............especially for the last 20 years...........I will admit to Craig being normal, as for AJ.....we don't need to explain it to our members here. I will vouch that both are gentlemen and fairly nice guys...........

[alsancle]

52 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

I think my statement still stands...............especially for the last 20 years...........I will admit to Craig being normal, as for AJ.....we don't need to explain it to our members here. I will vouch that both are gentlemen and fairly nice guys...........

 

You are more comfortable with Duesenberg because you know them and the ecosystem that supports them.   A Model J is probably on par in complexity with a 540K,  but a little simpler because of the blower.    A sorted 540K will run forever too,  the problem is finding a sorted one.  

 

I will make the statement that a truly serious prewar collection needs a supercharged Mercedes:   K, S, SS, 380, 500K, 540K, or a 770K.    They are crazy cool cars.

[edinmass]

K,S,SS,SSK are my type of star cars.............the later ones......not so much.

 

So, my questions stands........name anyone who bought a 500/540 in the last 20 years that was a beginner. Especially a big boy toy.

Edited July 3, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

21 minutes ago, edinmass said:

K,S,SS,SSK are my type of star cars.............the later ones......not so much.

 

So, my questions stands........name anyone who bought a 500/540 in the last 20 years that was a beginner. Especially a big boy toy.

Do you know anybody who was a beginner who bought a Duesenberg ?

 

Typically if you’re gonna drop seven figures on a collectible, you’re probably gonna want to know what you’re doing.

[George K]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

The other thing  - I think the owners manual specifically tells you not to run the blower in 1st and maybe 2nd also.  Only in 3rd or 4th.

Strictly verboten! Ah who reads all that stuff. This guy knew better but a kid in a new Vette was revving at a stop light. I ran a dummy pump with an electric pump never had a problem. I wasn’t ever set back in the seat by the blower. Now a SSK is a horse of different color.

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, George K said:

Strictly verboten! Ah who reads all that stuff. This guy knew better but a kid in a new Vette was revving at a stop light. I ran a dummy pump with an electric pump never had a problem. I wasn’t ever set back in the seat by the blower. Now a SSK is a horse of different color.

George,  the issue with the dummy pump is you don't get the extra fuel when the blower is engaged,  hence no extra 60HP.   I did the same thing for years until I got religion.  So I understand.

[George K]

That doesn’t make sense. S series have a  vacuum or pressure system with two carburetors and don’t need a pump like that thing. Any good pump can deliver more pressure than any needle can take. Maybe bigger fuel lines depending on what fuel you’re running.

[George K]

I never ran a factory fuel pump on an eight cylinder. Every one I had was frozen or just shot. Are you just dumping more fuel in somehow? Been over 35 years ago since I had one. The dummy I had was a solid replica pump which was just for looks and was a unrestricted pass through setup. Is there some circuitry I am unaware of. 

[alsancle]

42 minutes ago, George K said:

I never ran a factory fuel pump on an eight cylinder. Every one I had was frozen or just shot. Are you just dumping more fuel in somehow? Been over 35 years ago since I had one. The dummy I had was a solid replica pump which was just for looks and was a unrestricted pass through setup. Is there some circuitry I am unaware of. 

Eight cylinder cars, when the blower clutch is engaged, there’s a lever on the carburetor which opens up two more jets to let in more fuel.  The complicated fuel pump is part of a pressure system that forces more fuel from the tank to the carburetor when the blower is engaged. If you don’t get that extra gas, you don’t get your 60 hp boost. I do not know how the six cylinder cars work. It would be nice if someone wanted to give me one so I can figure it out. 

[George K]

Best I know with blown through carburetors the venting has to be closed with blower engaged. Otherwise the pressure overcomes the fuel supply and fuel sprays out. Closing off the natural aspirated carb is part of the foot operated blower. 

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, George K said:

Best I know with blown through carburetors the venting has to be closed with blower engaged. Otherwise the pressure overcomes the fuel supply and fuel sprays out. Closing off the natural aspirated carb is part of the foot operated blower. 

Seems like post war this sort of setup always has the carburetor in a box.  

[George K]

Not so with factory set ups.

[SC38dls]

18 hours ago, alsancle said:

Do you know anybody who was a beginner who bought a Duesenberg ?

 

Typically if you’re gonna drop seven figures on a collectible, you’re probably gonna want to know what you’re doing.

You forget Ed has ALL of the J diagrams tattooed on the back of his eyelids. 
dave s 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Not so with factory set ups.

I was thinking of the post war Paxton blower found on Studebaker and Shelby as an example. Where they would put the pressurized carburetor inside of a box, to keep the pressure in.

 

Only a problem with the superchargers that are blowing through the carburetor, not sucking from the carburetor which I think is more typical.

[edinmass]

 

I have never played around too much with early blowers.........Just the Stutz setup on the Lancefield Coupe and George's special he was playing around with. I can tell you a 540k or an S is no match for a Duesenberg out on the open road.........we walked a S on the M4 in England a few years ago..........with the J's taller gearing we were able to toy with them.......and just drove away. The speeds were how shaw we say..........just a tick over the limit. It was great fun. Here you can see the cars in the Cotswolds just before we ran them down the road........

Edited July 4, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

How many prewar cars are there that can keep up with a Dusenburg Model J?

[edinmass]

19 hours ago, alsancle said:

How many prewar cars are there that can keep up with a Dusenburg Model J?

 

Depends on the car and who is driving. Speed 6, Marmon 16, and probably a few others..........most can't spin up to speed as fast as the J. My Pierce 12 will easily run with a J, but won't come anywhere near on acceleration. 

[8E45E]

19 hours ago, alsancle said:

How many prewar cars are there that can keep up with a Dusenburg Model J?

A V8 Tatra 87 would have come close, I think.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, 8E45E said:

A V8 Tatra 87 would have come close, I think.

 

Craig

85 horsepower and 3000 pounds..........wouldn't be in the running. 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

85 horsepower and 3000 pounds..........wouldn't be in the running. 

It's the aerodynamics that would be in Tatra's favor.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

I have had my hands on two of them. I did not have a chance to drive one. They are, to be polite, uninspired VW bugs. Quality is below par. Small displacement engine. Interesting and odd ball……yes. Would I own one, nope. I can’t imagine anyone placing them on a list of exceptional cars along with a blowen Mercedes or a J. I would describe the fit and finish on them as “very cheaply done”.  I can see why people would be intrigued by them. The few owners I know are crazy about them, and they fall into that strange category of an “engineer’s” car like an Invecta. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[540K]

Twelve supercharged Mercedes up for auction in Monterey (so far - Bonham's hasn't released it's full catalog yet). It will be interesting to watch the one-off roadster #408383 in particular. It will be on the block for the 4th time since Gen Lyon sold it in 2011. The previous results adjusted for inflation were approximately $6m, $9.4m and $8m. The pre-sale estimate is $7-8m. With five Cab A's up for grabs, someone may have a rare opportunity to pick one up at a decent price (AJ). 😄

[alsancle]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:27 PM, 540K said:

Twelve supercharged Mercedes up for auction in Monterey (so far - Bonham's hasn't released it's full catalog yet). It will be interesting to watch the one-off roadster #408383 in particular. It will be on the block for the 4th time since Gen Lyon sold it in 2011. The previous results adjusted for inflation were approximately $6m, $9.4m and $8m. The pre-sale estimate is $7-8m. With five Cab A's up for grabs, someone may have a rare opportunity to pick one up at a decent price (AJ). 😄

 

Should be an interesting test of the market.  Most of them have sat, but all are good cars.   The King of Afghanistan Special Roadster is a very very rare opportunity at a covered spare car.

[tilomagnet]

Yes, most interesting auction since many years for MB. I think the estimate on the long tail covered spare wheel roadster is 11-12MM. 

 

 

[alsancle]

22 minutes ago, tilomagnet said:

Yes, most interesting auction since many years for MB. I think the estimate on the long tail covered spare wheel roadster is 11-12MM. 

 

 

If it was LHD I’m sure they would be looking for 15.

 

That is a really good car. And there are three or four real covered spare long tails?

[540K]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

That is a really good car. And there are three or four real covered spare long tails?

Three in this body style, I believe, out of six to eight made. The former Warner car (black), the former Mann car (silver) and this one. All 540 K's. Neither of the two 500 K's with covered spare are known to survive, to my knowledge. Unknown how many decent-quality rebodied special roadsters have been made, but I would say fifteen to twenty.  I'm a little surprised we haven't seen any double-spare cars converted to covered spare. The roadster offered by Broad Arrow next month is also covered spare (408383) but it's not the same body style. The 2-tone paint of the one coming up for sale helped me decide not to 2-tone my car! Happy with my decision.