Period Rebodied Cars

[Steve_Mack_CT]

There is an interesting thread making the rounds in the Packard section here and on Packard Info regarding a 1921 Single Six. There is some question on the body but if it is a modified or rebodied car it surely looks to have been done some time ago.

So my question is how does an authentic (or done when the car would have been relatively new) major body modification or rebody impact one's ability to show a car at an AACA or CCCA or even marque specific club show? To clarify I am not talking street rods or mods of that sort. Strictly period rebodied cars. Does documentation help?

I know market determines value, i.e. a Duesenberg rebodied into an open car from a closed car will have a different value, but what about points competition?

Thought this might make for an interesting thread.

Looking forward to maybe taking a veteran or two in a local parade in the old Packard this weekend, a small way to say thanks!

Edited May 28, 2010 by Steve_Mack_CT
clarity (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I would think a car rebodied YEARS after it was built would get the full deduction of points in AACA Judging. RACE CARS however are different, a car with a 10 year long career can be shown as ANY of the years it was in competion.

[Shop Rat]

Steve,

Here are the rules according to the current Judges Guidelines book. They can be found under the heading Exterior.

5. NON-AUTHENTIC BODIES

a. Vehicles with bodies that have been

altered or newly manufactured that differ

in style and appearance from the

original body fitted on the chassis at

the time it was purchased new by the

original

owner will be considered NONAUTHENTIC.

Vehicles fitted with such

bodies will be subject to a 40 point mandatory

deduction.

b. Exceptions:

1. Precise identical duplication

of a complete

body or any part of the vehicle’s

original body, as fitted to the chassis

of the original

vehicle

when purchased

new by the original

owner

is acceptable, provided such duplication

is reasonably required

by the

absence, destruction,

or deterioration

beyond

repair.

This would also include

the duplication of a “First” body, supplied

by a recognized outside source

to a vehicle that was originally offered

as “Chassis

only”. Such an example

would be the Commercial and Station

Wagon bodies mounted on the Ford

Model T Chassis.

2. A vehicle rebodied by a recognized

body builder during the era contemporary

with the period

that the

vehicle was originally

manufactured.

(Example: Classic

cars rebodied during

the Classic era by a recognized

body builder.)

3. Transfer of an original body from the

chassis of one vehicle to the chassis

of another vehicle

of the same make,

model, and year of manufacture. This

also includes parts of authentic

bodies

that are transferred. For example:

wire

wheels for wood wheels, side mount

fenders for non-side mount fenders,

etc.

4. Vehicles that have reached Senior

or

Preservation

status prior to January 1,

1982, will be exempted

from the nonauthentic

rule. However,

upon sale or

transfer

of ownership,

the vehicle

will

be subject

to the non-authentic

rule as

defined

above.

c. The burden of proof as to the accurate

representation of a vehicle is the sole

responsibility of the owner.

d. Misrepresentation of vehicles: The Class

Judging Committee and National

Technical

Committee reserve the right to remove

from the AACA list of First Prize winners,

any vehicle judged after January 1, 1982,

that is found to have been falsely represented

at a National Meet.

6. Non-authentic components

including but

not limited to fiberglass are subject to

the maximum deduction as shown on the

judging form, up to a maximum

deduction

of 120 points. The exception

is any

vehicle originally

constructed of fiberglass,

ex. - Corvette. Non-authentic components

may be discovered in any way which is not

damaging

to the vehicle or its finish.

..... Any deviation from these general guidelines

would warrant factory documentation from

the owner.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Thanks Susan, my guess is the section where the occasional questions may come up would be section 2; particularly in terms of authenticating a coachbuilt body.

HD Bob, good to hear from you, was wondering where you have been!

[Shop Rat]

Steve,

You are welcome. You are probably correct on where the most questions come from. Not sure how many of those there are that come to AACA shows but I bet there are records somewhere that would tell us.

[Guest P.M.O.]

Steve,This might help too for the people out there that have cars on the list that were not built by GM in the USA

Here are the rules according to the current Judges Guidelines book. They can be found under the heading Exterior.

5. NON-AUTHENTIC BODIES

a. Vehicles with bodies that have been

altered or newly manufactured that differ

in style and appearance from the

original body fitted on the chassis at

the time it was purchased new by the

original

owner will be considered NONAUTHENTIC.

Vehicles fitted with such

bodies will be subject to a 40 point mandatory

deduction.

b. Exceptions:

1. Precise identical duplication

of a complete

body or any part of the vehicle’s

original body, as fitted to the chassis

of the original

vehicle

when purchased

new by the original

owner

is acceptable, provided such duplication

is reasonably required

by the

absence, destruction,

or deterioration

beyond

repair.

This would also include

the duplication of a “First” body, supplied

by a recognized outside source

to a vehicle that was originally offered

as “Chassis

only”. Such an example

would be the Commercial and Station

Wagon bodies mounted on the Ford

Model T Chassis.

2. A vehicle rebodied by a recognized

body builder during the era contemporary

with the period

that the

vehicle was originally

manufactured.

(Example: Classic

cars rebodied during

the Classic era by a recognized

body builder.)

3. Transfer of an original body from the

chassis of one vehicle to the chassis

of another vehicle

of the same make,

model, and year of manufacture. This

also includes parts of authentic

bodies

that are transferred. For example:

wire

wheels for wood wheels, side mount

fenders for non-side mount fenders,

etc.

4. Vehicles that have reached Senior

or

Preservation

status prior to January 1,

1982, will be exempted

from the nonauthentic

rule. However,

upon sale or

transfer

of ownership,

the vehicle

will

be subject

to the non-authentic

rule as

defined

above.

c. The burden of proof as to the accurate

representation of a vehicle is the sole

responsibility of the owner.

d. Misrepresentation of vehicles: The Class

Judging Committee and National

Technical

Committee reserve the right to remove

from the AACA list of First Prize winners,

any vehicle judged after January 1, 1982,

that is found to have been falsely represented

at a National Meet.

6. Non-authentic components

including but

not limited to fiberglass are subject to

the maximum deduction as shown on the

judging form, up to a maximum

deduction

of 120 points. The exception

is any

vehicle originally

constructed of fiberglass,

ex. - Corvette. Non-authentic components

may be discovered in any way which is not

damaging

to the vehicle or its finish.

..... Any deviation from these general guidelines

would warrant factory documentation from

the owner.

[West Peterson]

The CCCA says it's okay as long as it was rebodied by a known and reputable body builder, AND done during the Classic Car era: 1917-1948. Therefore, I believe AACA's "Classic" classes (18 and 19, I think) follow the same rule.

[Rusty_OToole]

It all depends on the car but a spectacular style body made by an unknown builder can be worth an eye popping amount of money. See the Round Door Rolls, which was rebodied by a Belgian bus manufacturer when it was 9 years old and sold a few years ago for $1,500,000 in unrestored condition. I doubt it would have brought 1/10 that amount in similar condition with the original cabriolet body. This one had the advantage that its history was known, at least in outline, enough to prove the body was made in 1934.

The round door Rolls:

http://www.supercars.net/cars/4054.html

Edited January 14, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I'm personally not even remotely close to being a fan of points judging exercises but I do have a a question or two for those into this sort of thing on the given subject.

1. Why would any car without it's original body or chassis even be in any points judging unless the modification was done in the year of production by a maker authorized shop and more than one so modified?

2. Is not an individual car modified for anyone by anyone outside of a factory authorized shop nothing other than a custom car? Regardless of how tastefully done no different than an individual customizing a 2011 car.

3. And what can such a car be judged against? Certainly not against a production vehicle of the make and year?

4. Why would a "rebodied car" even have a class when it might just be one of a kind?

Just some personal thoughts in the form of questions.

Jim

[Guest P.M.O.]

I'm personally not even remotely close to being a fan of points judging exercises but I do have a a question or two for those into this sort of thing on the given subject.

1. Why would any car without it's original body or chassis even be in any points judging unless the modification was done in the year of production by a maker authorized shop and more than one so modified?

2. Is not an individual car modified for anyone by anyone outside of a factory authorized shop nothing other than a custom car? Regardless of how tastefully done no different than an individual customizing a 2011 car.

3. And what can such a car be judged against? Certainly not against a production vehicle of the make and year?

4. Why would a "rebodied car" even have a class when it might just be one of a kind?

Just some personal thoughts in the form of questions.

Jim

I think you will find the build of GM Flint /Buick frames were shipped around the world for the Body work to be fitted and most North American cars were built in many plants Canada had a few but the better Known plant was McLaughlin in Oshawa ,GM of Canada as it has been known from 1918 but shows 1908 by Durants order when he made it GM of Canada

[alsancle]

Slightly different but related issue as this is the original body. My 28 Stutz started as a new chassis bought through the Stutz Dealer on Broadway in NY and was built by an unknown but profession builder from 1928-1932. This builder also completed 4 to 8 other road specials (along with a number of sprint cars). I have loads of period pictures and documentation. I would like to bring it to CCCA events, but because of some of the issues cited in previous posts, I think it would only be entered in the display class, and not for judging. If my car was simply a coach-built body by an unknown builder I would apply for full CCCA status. However, the car was substantially modified for speed and I'm not sure how you could judge it.

[West Peterson]

I'm personally not even remotely close to being a fan of points judging exercises but I do have a a question or two for those into this sort of thing on the given subject.

1. Why would any car without it's original body or chassis even be in any points judging unless the modification was done in the year of production by a maker authorized shop and more than one so modified?

2. Is not an individual car modified for anyone by anyone outside of a factory authorized shop nothing other than a custom car? Regardless of how tastefully done no different than an individual customizing a 2011 car.

3. And what can such a car be judged against? Certainly not against a production vehicle of the make and year?

4. Why would a "rebodied car" even have a class when it might just be one of a kind?

Just some personal thoughts in the form of questions.

Jim

Jim

A good many of the cars in the Classic class (18 and 19) have one-off bodies... many many more are one of three built, too many to count are one of less than 10, etc.

[West Peterson]

Slightly different but related issue as this is the original body. My 28 Stutz started as a new chassis bought through the Stutz Dealer on Broadway in NY and was built by an unknown but profession builder from 1928-1932. This builder also completed 4 to 8 other road specials (along with a number of sprint cars). I have loads of period pictures and documentation. I would like to bring it to CCCA events, but because of some of the issues cited in previous posts, I think it would only be entered in the display class, and not for judging. If my car was simply a coach-built body by an unknown builder I would apply for full CCCA status. However, the car was substantially modified for speed and I'm not sure how you could judge it.

Al

There used to be a race-car class in the CCCA up through the 1960s, but I believe they have dissolved that.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jim:

1. West is correct and some of these cars were rebodied in a different year than the chassis would indicate.

2. You have a point but we allow recognized prototypes and we look to the whole era of cars recognized as true classics. This was a "cottage industry" as you know and these cars were designed to be "every day" transportation by those wealthy enough to afford them.

3. AACA does not judge car against each other but against a 400 point score which is why you can see a diverse field in some classes and the ability to judge race cars.

4. Again, you have to read the descriptions in our rule book in regards to classic cars, race cars and our 35a and 35b classes which could contain factory experimental or prototype vehicles.

Some cars are difficult for us to consider but common sense and research come into play. Those of us that chopped, channeled, and otherwise modified cars amost a half century ago can make the distinction between a custom bodied Rolls-Royce, Packard, etc. and a car built for the street scene. The lines can get blurred but we do have a committee that can review these when they come up and make the decsion based upon the intent in producing the car.

Or at times we just throw darts (just kidding...)

[Rusty_OToole]

I have seen used car ads from English magazines of the thirties, that showed early twenties Rolls Royce Twenty chassis that had new bodies in the latest style. These were sold as "replicas". Wonder if any survive.

[Guest Silverghost]

Often used Classic autos that still had quite a bit of life left in their very costly & high quality chassis but had a out-dated looking or formal looking body that was not really saleable on the used auto market were rebodied with more sporty looking coachwork so that an easy re-sale could be made.

Often these type autos were traded-in by their customers on a new auto.

John Inskip of NY was famous for his 1930s-era rebodied Rolls~Royce Springfields & other Classic autos.

The "Playboy Roadster" R~R was a common exmple of ths sort of body swap in the early days.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

It will be interesting 25 years from now when all those American Choppers custom motorcycles come of age to be potentially shown at AACA meets. I suppose they would qualify, being scratch built in a factory rather than modified from "off the shelf" motorcycles, or would they?

[alsancle]

Al

There used to be a race-car class in the CCCA up through the 1960s, but I believe they have dissolved that.

West, As far as I can tell, the car was not intended to be a race car. I have seen "sprint car for the street" used by both the previous owner and the builder's son so I think it was intended as a street car. My dad still believes it was supposed to be some kind of LSR. It may have started off as some sort of LSR in 1928 but was obsolete pretty quick. Hopefully I can find some shows to bring it to.

A.J.

[West Peterson]

I'm not sure what LSR stands for, but I'm sure that once it's completed, you'll find several concours that would love to have you show it. It is definitely historical. You may want to contact AACA's vice president in charge of class judging and see if he has any ideas on how it could be entered in AACA events. In my opinion, it should at least be allowed to be displayed in a certain class, even if it can't be judged.

[alsancle]

I'm not sure what LSR stands for, but I'm sure that once it's completed, you'll find several concours that would love to have you show it. It is definitely historical. You may want to contact AACA's vice president in charge of class judging and see if he has any ideas on how it could be entered in AACA events. In my opinion, it should at least be allowed to be displayed in a certain class, even if it can't be judged.

Sorry, LSR = Land Speed Racer or straight line speed car. I'm not interested in having it judged as I'm not sure what the standard would be. Hopefully we'll be able to show as a display at some of the AACA or CCCA venues.

[oldcar]

I imagine that the 1921 (actually 1923 my mistake) Packard that is being referred to here is my car. In actual fact the car has the body that was fitted before it left the factory in 1923. What happened is that the car was vandalised before it left America to come to Australia as I am led to believe some time in the 1950s or 60s. It was a style 222 4 passenger coupe. the roof was cut off and the interior ripped out including all the seats and trim. I first saw the car at a farm clearing sale and was taken by the extremely shapely rear section of the body and by the fact that unusually for a production American car it has aluminium panels from the windscreen back. When I first looked at it I thought that it was/had been a drop head coupe (using the English terminology) Foolishly I bought the car and decided to restore it making it into a convertible using all the factory timber frame and panels in the process. If I had realised the trouble and controversy I was going to cause I would have never bought it. I really regret that day. With the exception of the coupe roof and the interior trim, both of which were long gone when I bought the car and of course the paint the car, is still exactly the same car that left the factory all those 90 years ago. There is a precedent for this type of conversion. The highly respected French coachbuilding firm Ansart et Teisseire were doing exactly this in 1922-29. It has NOT had a body swap. It has NOT been rebuilt using a new body frame and panels. It has been PROPERLY restored using only the factory components. No wonder I become annoyed when stupid blinkered people who have never seem the car and seem to refuse to even look properly at the photographs of the car, make wild accusations about the car and by inference myself. I invite any of the self appointed experts to come and inspect the car and tell me which parts (apart from as previously explained roof and interior0 are not those supplied by the factory in 1923. Alternatively if they are prepared to put their money where there mouth is and pay the $5,000 to ship the car to the US I will ship it there and if they can prove me wrong I shall refund their money. As we say here is Australia PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

One so called expert suggested on the Packard section of this forum that the car was a MONGREL and should be banned from all AACA Shows. If this car is a mongrel so is every other car that ever left the Packard factory.

Edited May 8, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

No one is arguing that the body now on the car is not the body it left the factory with. However, as you admit, it did not leave the factory as a convertible nor was it modified into a convertible by a custom body builder when new. In AACA judging your modifications would warrant a 40 point deduction but both you and your car would be happily welcomed at any AACA National Meet and you could certainly enter it for judging if you wanted to.

[R Walling]

Not that I am a fan of the 57 El Morroco's, but this thread brings up the question if that car is an "an authentic car" according to the rules.

HowStuffWorks "1956-1957 Chevrolet El Morocco"

[West Peterson]

Slightly different but related issue as this is the original body. My 28 Stutz started as a new chassis bought through the Stutz Dealer on Broadway in NY and was built by an unknown but profession builder from 1928-1932. This builder also completed 4 to 8 other road specials (along with a number of sprint cars). I have loads of period pictures and documentation. I would like to bring it to CCCA events, but because of some of the issues cited in previous posts, I think it would only be entered in the display class, and not for judging. If my car was simply a coach-built body by an unknown builder I would apply for full CCCA status. However, the car was substantially modified for speed and I'm not sure how you could judge it.

Since this thread has been brought back to the top....

Al

There is now a non-judged class for this car at National AACA events: Special Interest Class. It is for cars such as yours, plus specially modified cars done for movies, cars that have been altered for "concept presentation" to car companies (but not by the car company), etc.

The El Morroco would probably be entered in this class as well.

Edited May 8, 2013 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep, Oldcar, your car was the one I was referencing, and I agree with your yard sale assessment that the body was striking even in unrestored form. The results of your work are outstanding, and you picked great colors as well, FWIW. To be clear, my initial post was academic in nature just as Restorer pointed out, and not critical of the car - I think, at the time the origin of the body was unkown? In any event beautiful car - good luck selling it.

A.J. already knows of at least one AACA event (well, local, small timey BUT run by an AACA region ) who are hoping to feature the Schumacher Special - when the time comes...

[Matt Harwood]

I'd just like to point out that I didn't call this particular Packard a "mongrel" in a derogatory sense, only that it is not as the factory built it and as such, purists will not be interested. Oldcar was asking about market values and how to market this particular car and I told him that the modified body with no provenance (AKA a "mongrel") is hard to market in a seat of otherwise correct and desirable cars at the same price point. I personally like this car a lot and have a recent and great regard for the Packard Six. Perhaps the term "late custom" would have been more appropriate, and I've already personally apologized to Oldcar for perhaps offending him with that term. My intent was merely to show that it wouldn't be as marketable as a car with its factory body still in as-built configuration, that's all.

And no, I never said it should be banned from AACA or CCCA shows, I merely pointed out that it would take a hit at AACA shows (as described above) and that the CCCA does not permit cars with a question mark like this attached to them at Grand Classics. Not my rules, the club's.

Personally, I'm in favor of welcoming anyone who wants to participate with a suitable car. What about the Duesenberg J "replica" with an engine from one J, a bellhousing from another, a set of repro frame rails, and a beautiful reproduction dual cowl body? It sold recently for under $500,000 because of its mixed pedigree (AKA "mongrel"), but it still looks, runs, and drives like a Duesenberg J. Should it be welcome? Should it take a hit in points judging? I don't know anything except that if a half-million dollar car can be a bargain, THAT was it.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I have to agree, in reference to the Packard Values thread, if you go out and ask about values on an internet forum, you are going to get feedback. Matt, your professional opinion as well as those of some others who weighed in seemed fair to me, and in good faith FWIW.

To get back to the more general question, since I posted this question 4 years ago I have also learned a bit more about venues. I think points judging has it's place, but is not the be it all end all either. Glad AACA has a class for this type of car, as Matt's Duesy example or Oldcar's Packard would add to any meet. These also seem like they would be welcome at any concours as well, or most any tour for that matter.

I am aware of at least a couple of pretty well researched replicas of Gordon Beuhrig's famous Model A - wonder how a car like that would be received by MARC, MAFCA, AACA, etc. I have posed this hypothetical once before but imagine the authentic car still existed, does CCCA accept it? Just food for discussion..

Edited May 8, 2013 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

CCCA does not accept Model A Fords. None. Nada. No way.

It would probably fall under AACA's Special Interest Class.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Of course that would be the most likely response West - but it would be a star at most any concours, which shows there are plenty of venues out there for interesting cars.

[alsancle]

Not exactly true. If the Model A had a body from Rollston or LeBaron it would be accepted.

[West Peterson]

Do you really think so? I don't... and I would hope not.

[alsancle]

I'm pretty sure that those mundane chassis with Classic bodies have been accepted before. In especially thinking of Packard 120s with European bodies. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Will have to dig out my roster and look.

[West Peterson]

If ever there was a Model A that would have been considered for Classic status by the CCCA, it would probably have been the town car that was built in very limited numbers. So far, they have not been accepted. I don't know if anyone has ever tried to push one through or not.

[alsancle]

The town cars were built by Ford, correct? I'm thinking more along the lines of a European body on a Model A chassis. My two examples of Rollston and LeBaron are probably bad because I don't think that every happened. This is what I was thinking of

.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Funny T-head is featuring a Brewster this morning on another thread, as that was what I initially thought of in regards to coachbuilt cars on non Classic chassis. On one hand, one could argue the Beuhrig "A" was hand modified (not coachbuilt from scratch, though) in the ACD shops to the specifications of one of the most revered designers of the Classic era, but on the other hand, it is still a 4 cylinder Model A chassis - I may be wrong but I do not think any 4 cylinder cars are Classics?

A.J. I have seen some other coachbuilt derivatives of early V-8 Fords as early as 1932 but to my knowledge none of them are Classics. Correction - I just happen to have the 2011 roster here and there are 4 of them listed, '32 to '37.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Steve_Mack_CT
correction (see edit history)