2010 National: Driven Class Rules

[Patrick W. Brooks]

The rules governing the Driven Class involve more that having to drive your Buick to the National. The Buick must be at least 25 years old and satisfy rules about originality and period items. The rules do not penalize a car for condition or appearance. Read the details in the June 2009 Buick Bugle, pages 14 and 15. Also, you may review the rules as contained in the 2005 Judging Handbook at pages 8-9. Remember, Buicks were made to be driven. Patrick W. Brooks, Driven Class Chairman

[Guest my3buicks]

This is a class that could be more inclusive. The BCA is begging, crying for membership as it bleeds a slow death due to slow membership decline and members dieing off, but yet we put a limit on even the driven class for the age of a car to be included. In other words we are telling potential new members, or possibly younger members (as they may have later model Buicks) come join, but leave your car at home. This is a prime class to include ALL Buicks. After all, every Buick built is part of the Buick heritage. On top of that you can even have many models judged in class Judging up to 1998. Open the Driven Class up and fill the field for a change.

[NTX5467]

When the Driven Class proposal was presented in '99 in Kokomo, I heard one older gentleman say, after the meeting was over, that he liked the concept of the class, but to make sure it did NOT include any "new cars" ("New Cars" being defined as anything newer than 25 model years old, to him). As I recall, he was quite adamant about that stipulation.

I've heard the BCA being termed an "antique car car club", yet that dialogue appears nowhere that I've been able to find in the club's documents. If the Driven Class participating vehicles must be 25 model years old, or older, that makes then fit the typical definition of "antique". In many cases, I have observed that most who use that "antique car club" reason for not joining or checking the BCA out first, usually use it in a somewhat derrogatory manner AND are somewhat younger in age demographics than what many consider to be "the typical Buick owner".

The age of the vehicle in any BCA judged show has compelling discussions on both side of the issue, BUT it would appear to make financial sense to go with the side of the discussiion which can bring the best financial gain-from-investment for the BCA rather than otherwise. To me, if we don't get people with newer Buicks involved in the show participation situation earlier in the life of their vehicles, WHO might save these Buicks for later years? Allowing them to be "a used car" for the first 25 years of their life does little to preserve than for later years and enjoyment--by observation.

Great comments, Keith!

Regards,

NTX5467

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Perhaps the answer to this problem would be two or more classes, i:e less than 25 years and more than 25 years. I think I can agree with Keith that we need to be inclusive. Although many of us tend to think BCA = older cars, we probably should not.

Also, if I am understanding correctly, this is not a competition against other entrants. Am I right ??

My 2cents.

Ben

[Guest 52buick72r]

Great points.

I agree in that there certainly is an argument to be made with regards to the rolling 25 year "antique" rule. There will always be a portion of the club which prefers to see nothing but vintage Buicks. That said, I just read 11 pages of typed debate over the $50 dues issue.

The Driven class is perhaps the best way we as members can alleviate the strain on BCA budget (Bugle) which then relieves the tension in cash-strapped regions of the country (your wallet).

Currently, if an enthusiastic 30-year old scores a 1987 (fill in the blank: Regal, Estate Wagon, Skyhawk, Le Sabre) and is considering joining the BCA and entering it in the Driven class - it has wear, afterall - at a National Meet, he's essentially not welcomed. It's a very big missed opportunity. Not just in the associated National meet fees, but in another $50 check...and possibly more. Don't forget, social networking is HUGE with today's youth, in ways many of us never heard of just three years ago. A pre- and post-25-year Driven class would be an ideal outlet for these newer, nearly vintage Buicks; cars which (typically speaking, mind) younger folks have the ability to purchase and maintain. Before you know it, one can quickly swell to 10, 20, or even more. At the same time, the club's average age is lowered, ensuring the continuation of the BCA long after we're gone. Why have the young man (or woman) wait another two or more years?

Anybody who isn't interested in seeing these newer cars can simply skip over them at the Meet. It's called an option; nobody is forcing you to look at them.

And as far as I am aware, the answer is yes: the vehicles in the Driven class do not compete against each other.

Like it or not, the addition of the Modified class was a step in the right direction in an effort to gain new members and friends. Let's take the next step!

[TxBuicks]

A Buick must only be 12 years or older to participate in the BCA 400 point judging. This age seems like a reasonable compromise.

[Guest my3buicks]

Compromise? That still leaves out 12 years of proud Buick owners - I thought we are the "Buick Club of America", not the "Once your Buick Is A Certain Age Club of America"

If a person joins the club, and has a Buick of ANY age, there needs to be an outlet for them to participate WITH their car at Buick Club functions.

The Buick Club of America is a non-profit membership corporation dedicated to the preservation and restoration of those vehicles built by the Buick Motor Division of General Motors Corporation.

Note there is no age set in the BCA statement that lures people in!!!!

[HurstGN]

All very valid points here. We have a 1995 Riviera. I guess we'll have to wait 10 years to participate with it? Seems kind of silly. As was mentioned, nobody is forcing you to look at the newer cars. Also, when placing cars on the show field, try to park them by years in multiples of 10. That way if you don't want to look at the newer cars, you just don't walk down that row of cars. But those with similar cars would be near each other, and I'd bet some long lasting friendships would develop over discussion of their respective cars.

Did anyone ever stop to think that the most roadworthy cars are the ones you're excluding by placing a 25 year age limit on the vehicles?

Hey, I've got an antique car...it's parts are becoming harder to find by the day...I'm terrified of driving it on public roadways due to the increased risk of irrepairable damage to the body...but there is a class for me if I drive it to the show and there are none of those pesky new cars there.

Sound familiar? I know people that think that way and begin to seriously consider trailers as a car gets older, to preserve the car they love. Yes, you will get a certain number of die-hard drivers and those will impress the he** out of me for driving to the show. But don't exclude the future of the club over an arbitrary 25 year age of the vehicle.

Personally, I have 6 Buicks. 4 are excluded by the 25 year thing. 1 of the remaining is in mid restoration with no targeted end date. The last one is 28 years old, and 1 of about 20 made. Due to it's rariey, it doesn't travel often. Just a personal example of how the 25 year rule excludes me. Oh, and it's not like I'm not active...I am a past president of our local chapter and we hosted a fantastic 4 day regional under my watch. But that's OK, I'll just go sit on the sidelines over here till my cars are old enough to be deemed worthy.

[Guest wildcat62]

Dan, what do you consider participate? Your 1995 Riviera is eligible for 400 pt judging, and has been for 2 years. You also can drive it and display for free. I took my 1998 Riviera to Flint in 2008. You can have a ball making others groan when they hear the mileage you get driving! I guess if you want to sit out on the sidelines...you can...but it's a lot more fun inside. You get to choose.

Keith, for what it's worth and not *quite* the same subject, Don Adams was talking to Kevin Kinney (another BOD member) and I at Co Springs about 400 pt judging and a cut off. No one is sure who picked the 12 year rule. After discussing with Alan Oldfield, he did not have any objections to a proposed change. The question is how many years is it worth to judge the car? Some thoughts were five years. It certainly something we would be happy to discuss and look at. There is some feeling that someone who works to restore or maintain a Buick that may be 30-40 years old, or older (or younger I know) may feel a bit slighted that they recieve a gold senior they worked hard for, and someone buys a 2010 Lucerne and gets a gold senior.

I know...not the same as driven class, but the original point of the driven class was to get those of us with older Buicks that dont have the funds to restore to bring the cars out. When this was proposed in Kokomo (2002 by the way) I was thrilled. My Wildcat will never make 400 pt judging, but I love driving it (when I put that dang water pump in anyway). It gives people a way to participate.

The BCA has moved to be very inclusive in the past few years, we are certainly willing to look at more options.

[buick5563]

These are ALL very good points. I think this should be the all inclusive award. If it is a Buick AND it is driven, it has met the requirement. I have seen numerous cars driven over 1000 miles not receive a driven award because the owner chose to put different wheels on it. I realize that by making the Driven Award easier to get, it cheapens it... kinda like all the kids on the soccer team getting trophies. The only exception I would make to my give everybody a prize theory, is no Chevy motors.

[dship]

I'm a BCA member and I have two 1992 Buick Rivieras which cannot be entered in the Driven Class due to their "young" age. I know they can be entered in the 400 point class but it would be real nice if I had some choice as to which class I'd like to enter my vehicles.

As others have suggested, open up another class or two!! You folks want new members/younger members...here's an obvious solution. 99.99% of all the other meets I attend welcome my restored Rivieras. These Rivieras have actually won awards at other meets. The NERCLC even welcomes my two "very young" Eldorados for which they have a class for.

Now I think you all can figure out just why the ROA is so successful... classes to suit all years of Rivieras...just my own opinion.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Hey, Mike, there is even a class for the chevy motor[shudder]. I believe it could compete in the Modified class.

Ben

[Pete Phillips]

DShip, you make it sound like the BCA does not welcome your '92 Rivieras to its national meet. Nothing else could be farther from the truth! We have a class in the 400-point judging for these Rivieras, and if more than 10 or 15 Rivieras register, which they usually do, we split them into more classes, according to age. I have attended many BCA national meets and judged at them, and I am always amazed at the quality of cars that do NOT enter the 400-point judging. I think the majority of BCA members are under the impression that their car has to be showroom perfect to be in the 400-point judging. That is not and never has been the case. A well-maintained daily driver can usually win a bronze or silver award in the 400-point judging. It happens all the time. You can lose up to 45 judging points and still win an award in the 400-point judging. So please don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Head Judge, 2010 BCA National Meet

[dship]

Pete,

Please don't get me wrong....I'm not dismissing it....just trying to point out (as others have also) that an alternative would be to have an official class or two up front and always. I totally understand that I can enter the 400 point class but it would be nice to have more than one option. IMO additional classes will attract additional members to the BCA (the late model folks who love their Buicks just as much as the "antique owners" do). Many thanks Pete for your info on the 400 point judging...appreciate the insight.

[buick5563]

Hey, Mike, there is even a class for the chevy motor[shudder]. I believe it could compete in the Modified class.

Ben

It is my understanding that in order to be in the BCA modified class, it has to be Buick powered. The modified class had some spectacular cars shown last year, BTW...

[HurstGN]

Dan, what do you consider participate? Your 1995 Riviera is eligible for 400 pt judging, and has been for 2 years. You also can drive it and display for free. I took my 1998 Riviera to Flint in 2008. You can have a ball making others groan when they hear the mileage you get driving! I guess if you want to sit out on the sidelines...you can...but it's a lot more fun inside. You get to choose.

Keith, for what it's worth and not *quite* the same subject, Don Adams was talking to Kevin Kinney (another BOD member) and I at Co Springs about 400 pt judging and a cut off. No one is sure who picked the 12 year rule. After discussing with Alan Oldfield, he did not have any objections to a proposed change. The question is how many years is it worth to judge the car? Some thoughts were five years. It certainly something we would be happy to discuss and look at. There is some feeling that someone who works to restore or maintain a Buick that may be 30-40 years old, or older (or younger I know) may feel a bit slighted that they recieve a gold senior they worked hard for, and someone buys a 2010 Lucerne and gets a gold senior.

I know...not the same as driven class, but the original point of the driven class was to get those of us with older Buicks that dont have the funds to restore to bring the cars out. When this was proposed in Kokomo (2002 by the way) I was thrilled. My Wildcat will never make 400 pt judging, but I love driving it (when I put that dang water pump in anyway). It gives people a way to participate.

The BCA has moved to be very inclusive in the past few years, we are certainly willing to look at more options.

Kris,

To me this all sounds backwards. The easiest class to enter is the 400 point class, and there is discussion that may make it easier to enter with "younger vehicles". The second you say 400 point judging, the trailer queen comes to mind. High dollar restorations...or a survivor that has never seen rain and low mileage. Pete's post identifies this is far from the truth, but it's the perception. I've never entered 400 point judging and probably never will. I'm of the old school where when you go for judging, you're aiming for perfection and trying to get as close to it as you can.

Now a driven class brings to mind a class comprised of cars that are less than perfect, driven to and from the show, and are most likely very clean daily drivers or cars that were clean daily drivers that have had attention paid to the details to make them really stand tall. Hrmm, this sounds like the description of cars that are entering the 400 point judging by Pete's description. If we were to enter our 95 Riv, I'd expect it to fit in the driven class as it's an unrestored daily driver with a few warts and all. But I'm being guided towards the 400 point class.

Does anyone see a problem in the names of these classes and the cars you're saying are entering? Driven class sounds like a class that should include any Buick that is driven to the show, period. It may include minor mods, a change of wheels, some personalization to make it a comfortable driver for the daily work commute. 400 point judged class sounds like a class for the highly restored car that is say 15 years or older...all original...maybe trailered, but not necessarily. Ironically my "driver" of a Riv is welcome for the 400 point judging and NOT the driven class. I ask again....do you see the point in the class names and the initial impression of the class?

Yes, it's just a name...but that name is the first impression and you only get one chance to make a good first impression. Try this one on for size....a conversation on a nice Sunday in a grocery store parking lot:

BCA Member : Hey, nice Buick. You should attend our BCA National. That car would do well at a national show.

Car Owner: Oh yea, you think so? I try to keep it nice, but it's not perfect. It has some little flaws from the previous owner.

BCA Member: Oh yea, you could enter our 400 point judging class. You'll lose a couple points, but your car looks great!

Car Owner: Oh, sorry, this isn't a competition car. It's just a nice driver and I try to take care of it. But it's not a 400 point car by any means. Don't you have a class for daily drivers or something like that?

BCA Member: We have a driven class, but you don't want that class, you fit in the 400 point judged class.

Car Owner: (Now feeling a bit pressured over the 400 point thing that he just doesn't understand) No, that driven class is what I'd enter. I'd like to be with other cars that were driven, not the top show cars. I'd not feel comfortable with those 400 point cars.

BCA Member: Well, you can't enter the driven class. Your car isn't old enough. It has to be 25 years old to be in the driven class. But you can enter the 400 point judged class. Not all cars are 400 point cars in that class. It's just the name of the class because they use a 400 point judging system.

Car Owner: Uh, I'll pass. But thanks for noticing my car. I'm really proud of it.

In this little scenario, the car owner hasn't read all the class rules and really isn't interested in some over the top judging, he's just interested in driving to a show, enjoying the day, and driving home. The fact he can't enter a driven class, which really appealed to him, is a turn off. By his own admission, he's proud of the car. It's obviously a nice car that it caught the attention of a BCA member. But sadly, the first impression left the prospective new BCA member a little bewildered about the fact his car "wasn't good enough" for a driver, but could be judged on a 400 point scale. The names of the classes have a connotation with them and this car owner went off to maybe never come back. An opinion was quickly formed and the car owner decided against the BCA. Oh well, lost another one.

Personally, a driven class should include any car that was driven to the show. That's the criteria. Yea, Buick motor, current inspection (if state required), registration, insurance...the usual stuff. But it was driven, it can enter that class. 400 point judging, reserve this for the older cars that are pristine, all original, etc. Just my opinion...take it for what it's worth.

[Mark Shaw]

I really don't mean to stir the pot here, and I must state that I have never entered my cars for judging. I drove my 24 Buick PU about 160 miles to the Bellevue meet, but I didn't enter it for a driven award because it is "modified" (All running gear is original and only the body has been modified).

I suggest that a combination of age and distance should figure in for this award. I have seen several Buicks that traveled less than 100 miles to get a driven award. I don't knock anybody for doing this as some are just lucky to live close enough to a national meet. However, those who drive great distances to a national meet should receive an award that shows some recognition of such an accomplishment.

The same goes for older vehicles. It is certainly feasable to drive brass or nickel cars a few hundred miles to a meet, but as indicated in previous posts, the older it is, the harder it is to drive great distances. It seems to me that some recognition should be given to the combination of age and distance.

For example, if a member enters a 50 year old car and drives 200 miles to the meet; multiply the two numbers to get 10,000 points. A 20 year old car would receive 4000 points, etc....

This may also resolve the question of allowing newer cars to receive this award. Those with newer cars would just need to drive farther....etc....

[HurstGN]

Now there's an interesting twist.

I know where you're coming from on the driving distance thing. We held a cruise years ago....just a cruise, no judging. It was open to all makes and models. One club member organized to have 6 Model A & T Fords to drive to the cruise. He led the way in his Model T. The impressive part was, driving to his house was 1 hour by interstate highways in a modern vehicle! :eek: These guys really got the respect of everyone at the show driving those old Fords in, and back home.

[Guest my3buicks]

we could just pretend we are airplanes and drive in circles once we got near the nationals to rack up points - that idea would involve a massive amount of work and calculation at a meet - KEEP THIS SIMPLE - that would be the idea of the driven class - you have a Buick, you enter it in the drivers class, you drive it to a National Meet, you get recognized. There is a major need for this kind of platform at the BCA National meets.

Read the other Buick forums & sites, there are a multitude of Buick owners that would never consider a BCA meet because of the 400 point system, but they don't want to park in the hotel parking lot either.

Again, this could be a major boost to the membership problem.

I would ask the BOD that frequent this forum to take this issue back to the table, and openly discuss a change to this class.

[JohnD1956]

Agreeing with Keith and others. People go to National Meet because they anticipate being welcomed and part of the bigger entity. They return to National Meets because they had a damn good time at a prior one. Some don't want their car judged regardless of it's condition. A driven award should be a "Thank You" for making our Meet better by the presence of you and your Buick.

[NTX5467]

A note on "Chevy engines" -- there were some years where Chevrolet-origin engines WERE in Buicks . . . think "last gen" Roadmaster . . . think "inline 6-cylinder" (after the Buick V-6 tooling was sold, then repurchased several years later) . . . think "Iron Duke" 4-cylinder (which began life as the Chevy II 4-cylinder) . . . all of which had their particular place in particular Buicks over the last decades. Also, there was also some use of the Olds DOHC "Quad4" engine in some fwd Skylarks.

It is obvious that the status of the 400 Point Judging is rather high, which is good, but can also discourage "normal cars" from being entered. As a hobby, we tend to have followed the orientations of the general public . . . the better paint is "original", except that that means paint that was slicker than any automotive factory would usually try to produce. The factory "texture" was carefully calibrated to cover any stamping "non-smoothness" of the sheet metal stampings. In the field, such roughness would be "worked" with putty or filler, then sanded smooth, primed, and painted to "better than factory" gloss and smoothness--which is what people usually expect to happen.

The prior "pure" acrylic lacquer GM paints had varying degrees of smoothness, from my observations, depending upon which plant it came from. The same could be said for the later water-borne acrylic enamels and basecoat/clearcoat factory paint. Although we might have tolerated the factory paint, anything to replace it had better be better in order to get our approval . . . unless you've spec'd a completely correct "factory OEM" repaint (IF you can find an original, been-in-storage all of its life 1978 Corvette Pace Car, you can see just how "satiny" it was from the factory--most of them had warranty paint work done because of that situation).

New vehicles of the 1960s and such were NOT perfect by any means. If they had been, there would have been no need for "pre-delivery inspection" or "make ready" functions at the dealership--other than what some tried to get by with just a clean and wash. Current production vehicles are much more perfect than anything in earlier history. Still, that factory paint had its "as-produced" texture, gloss, and build thickness (OR lack thereof on the rocker panels)--it's easy to spot once you know what to look for.

To me, I'd rather see a nice, well-kept survivor than a fully-restored (typically to someone's "taste" rather than correctness) vehicle. It typically takes much more restraint and dedication to do that than send it out to be restored (usually by somebody that might perceive any assembly stamps or QC marks to be "dirty" rather than historically significant)--they generally have "other priorities", by observation.

One year, at our Mopar club show, a local couple drove their '74 Plymouth Valiant Scamp to the show and it went in the stock class for that body platform. When the awards were presented, their car won 1st Place over other similar Valiants/Darts that were stock, but not as nicely maintained or had lower quality paint or interior replacements. They were floored, to say the least, never expecting anything like that--period. It showed some normal wear, but not "worn out" by any means. It still would have needed to be completely and correctly cleaned and detailed to be "show room new", but it was plenty nice as it was and the judging reflected that. With a little spiffing, it would have also shown well at the Mopar Nationals! So, this tends to prove Pete's point about "show cars" not having to be fully-restored to be competitive in the 400 Point judging.

Still, with the prestige of the 400 Point system, I concur that an alternative might be needed--an alternative which more members would be more comfortable with than a "full blown show car" situation per se. This is where the Driver Class and (possibly) the Archival Class should come in.

I recall the initial surprise in 1996 in Plano when "qualifications" for the Driver Class were revealed. These things tended to turn-off some potential participants as it (to them) constituted "judging" rather than a "show up and have fun in a Buick you drove to the meet" situation (as it appears to have been generally, originally, perceived). Then came the comments about a vehicle having too many changes could not enter the Driven Class and would be sent to the Modified Divison instead. To me, some of these observed miss-steps, with all due respect, should not have happened as they appeared to, especially the one about sending not-original-enough potential Driven Class entries to the Modified Division for participation THERE. The "all inclusiveness" of the Driven Class, as I perceived it would be, disappeared and many possible attendees were frustrated when told they didn't qualify (due to particular non-stock modifications--NOT customization in the "modified" sense of things).

Many seem to be unaware of the "25 model year rolling window" situation, wrongly perceiving "antique" to be something from the 1950s or 1960s rather than 1970s or 1990s. How one views these things can also relate to their "vintage", too--that point of reference situation strikes again!

An original 1970s vehicle showing against a 2005 vehicle against a restored 1960s vehicle of the same type? If you look at the fact that you can easily spend $40K on a newer vehicle, similar money on a restoration project, and similar money to purchase that nice, garage-kept car and get it spiffed (NOT restored or repainted!), you end up spending similar money, or less, to get to the same place. The 2005 vehicle would not be perfect, although it's newer, nor would the original 1970s vehicle be perfect (showing a little wear, but un-molested and just needing some cleaning, waxing, and spiffing), nor would the restored 1960's vehicle be perfect (panel gaps, indiscretions by the restoration facility to "make it perfect", or their perception of "perfect", using more modern paints and fasteners). Therefore EACH of them might end up with similar scores on the 400 Point judging, although you might not suspect that would happen. Same money, different ways of spending it--some easier, some more rewarding, some more fun. I know that all might not share that orientation, so model year breaks can be good ways to address that issue.

In general, the more people in the Buick hobby that you can motivate to participate in the BCA and its national events (NOT to forget local/regional chapters and their activities), the more synergy can develop and positively reflect on the BCA. Aren't we supposed to be "One BIG happy Buick family", unconditionally?

Regards,

NTX5467

Edited January 22, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Patrick W. Brooks]

These threads raise many interesting and relevant questions. I have always viewed the BCA as a large tent under which we can accomodate many people. The question is how do we expand the BCA to include those who have contributed to this set of threads. I can only give my opinion based on my experience after serving two terms on the BCA Board and as President of the BCA for two years. Consider the following;

FIRST: The approach: Please remember that the Driven Class was created after several years of hard work and finally passed the Board by a ONE VOTE margin. There was considerable resistance from those who wanted the BCA to emphasize the 400 point system only. This attitude has largely been overcome and this is reenforced by the later creation of the Modified Class, which I strongly supported. The wrong thing to do is take an existing class and try to make it into something it is not. The Driven and Modified Classes serve specific needs and groups and trying to bend them into something else would not satisfy what you want done and create substantial resistence to your ultimate goal(s).

SECOND: What to do? Pull your thoughts together about cars to be included, organization and rules. Find people to head the group and develop a name, identify the recognition to be given, etc. Write an article for the Bugle and use this web to spread the word and develope support. After you have had a broad conversation within the BCA take your end result to the BCA Board and ask that a new class/group be created. This way you tailor the new class to your specific needs and rules without having to fight with others in an established class about upsetting their system, rules and organization. I believe you will find the existing Board receptive to broader inclusion and there should be a positive result.

GO FOR IT. Good luck, Patrick W. Brooks

[Guest my3buicks]

In other words, forget about it. If I remember correctly, when the Drivers Class was proposed, it was to be more of an open class for just what it suggests, driven cars. I believe the descension was because you wanted it to be another jump through the hoops class with all kinds of rules. I can understand you not wanting to change this class as this was your baby from the start along with the guidelines for it. There have been many complaints since it's inception as to the strictness and I know of several instances where members where lost because of these rulings. I think the comments on this forum should be enough for the current board to see that there is much interest in expanding and rewriting what this class should have been from the start. And one wonders why the BCA is stuck in the mud of complacency and lost members.

[Mark Shaw]

Pat,

I appreciate your opinions and comments, but the last thing I want to do is add another class for National Meets. I believe any organization needs to continuously refine it's practices to keep up with change. If the BCA cannot change to accomodate current members interests it will not continue to grow.

I was adding my two cents in my previous post regarding my perception of the driven class in that it simply does not consider distance or age of the vehicle. I just wanted to point out how these factors could conveniently address the previously mentioned acceptance of newer vehicles in the driven class if age and distance were included in some way.

[The Old Guy]

I have been involved with the BCA for a LOOOOONG time, and have watched it evolve into what I feel is an elitest group. The first BCA national meets had people coming from all over and just enjoying their Buicks. The 400 point system came into being 30 years ago,and although many good people tried to make it work , it really never has @!!! The high dollar restorations are looked on as the standard, and that is WRONG !! Buicks in the early years ahd poor door fits and bad paint from the factory ,and do NOT fit into the 400 point system ! Judges try hard ,but there are too many that still "kill the car"

The driven class tried to rectify many of the problems that were arising, but when wheels and alternators were looked donwn on, there were many that just said " the He@@ with it "

I am not sure what the answer is , but I am afraid that until the BCA goes back to the "having fun " days and they realize that $50 dues and expensive banquets ,are not the answer, you will continue to lose membership.

I wish you good luck and hope it gets resolved

Joe Taubitz BCA 1308 --- BDE 001 -- BMD 004

Edited January 23, 2010 by The Old Guy (see edit history)

[Thriller]

I think we need to recognize that the club, and its classes / prizes need to evolve. If you haven't already seen it, there's a photo in the January Bugle that I took. If I recall, it doesn't include our 2006 Rainier - Suzanne didn't feel it belonged. However, it is listed in the roster. This indeed demonstrates that some don't feel comfortable with newer Buicks at the meet...and it's her primary vehicle. We could participate at Nationals by driving the Rainier, but I know I'd like a choice that isn't just display, like some of the others have mentioned.

There will come a day where we'll need to develop classes for vans / SUVs / CUVs because Buick made them.

As for the driven class, I think it is more complex than it needs to be. First, as a result of some of the rules of the driven class, we already have two driven classes - the one we are primarily discussing here and the modified driven class. So, what does a member choose to tick off on their registration form? What happens at the National if they have their car in the driven class and it is deemed to be modified, therefore doesn't qualify? Are the driven and modified driven classes going to be judged more or less together so that we can at least provide the benefit of the doubt to the participant so they don't wind up going away empty-handed? I'd hate to be the one on the field trying to explain to an owner why they don't get an award if is because they should have registered it in another class.

What is a new BCA member to reference if they don't have the older Bugle to reference, or perhaps even Internet access? Some information needs to be provided on the form to ensure an appropriate decision can be made.

Now, I'm going to try to address some of the points made previously...I don't recall who all made which points.

I like Mark's idea of a formula to give impetus to older vehicles. Perhaps a minimum needs to be set to get an award. The highest score could get a special award. As for checking distances, has anyone heard of Google Maps? Set it up to give shortest distance from the home address specified and all the mileages driven could be figured in short order.

I have wound up trailering cars for a variety of reasons. The '41 got trailered since it was fairly new to me and I wasn't yet confident it would make it to Seattle. The Wildcat was on the trailer last year to avoid potential damage en route to the meet. I guess that didn't really matter, although the truck is more comfortable driving. The '54 wagon will go to Ames on the trailer...it's been causing me a bit of grief and isn't happy hot starting...I'd rather get it there and back than have to deal with stuff on the side of the road. Besides, burning diesel in the truck pulling a car gets me a similar overall fuel cost compared to driving one of the old Buicks.

A blanket statement like a daily driver can compete in 400 point is a pretty broad brush that doesn't necessarily fit with my experience. It depends on the judging team.

BJM - in spite of what you stated (although I'm beginning to wonder if it was another thread), 10 minutes per car seems to be optimistic, again based on observation.

Going back to the creation of the class, am I understanding correctly in that we got what we have as a result of making compromises so that it could be approved? I know that wasn't stated, but it's kind of what I'm reading between the lines. We have a different BoD now. Not everything needs to be set in stone. If the membership wants it, perhaps changes could and should be made. Worst case, a survey could be done...we may have a low response rate, but if those who feel strongly responded, we may have a better feel for where the membership is at.

Oh yeah - a non-Buick engine doesn't disqualify a modified Buick, but if I recall correctly, it is a serious enough deduction that it is discouraged.

I guess I'll shut up now...I'm tired and if I keep going, I'll increase the odds that I'll really offend someone.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Thriller
Added modified judging note near end. (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

In one respect, the 400 Point Judging SHOULD and CAN be a "Driven Class" . . . IF trailer-ites (for the sake of trailering rather than driving) might be put in another class unto themselves. I concur with Derek on the reasons he has or plans to trailer his vehicles to the BCA National Meets--MUCH less potential headaches and delays, PLUS the potential to avoid damage enroute (as can and has happened!). I also understand the reason that people use enclosed trailers to transport fresh restorations to the event.

Therefore, looking at the broad picture, if you might be chasing a Gold Award, you'll most probably end up with the car on a trailer . . . although I know of several Gold Award Buicks which have been driven cross-country on their own four tires and still scored high enough for "Gold"--one is on this month's BUGLE cover. Everybody has their own orientation of "how to get there", which I understand, have watched, and respect.

We have "Driven Class" and "Archival Class", yet it continues to seem that the Driven Class is being treated as "Archival" rather than otherwise. With all due respect, the Driven Class is Mr. Brooks' domain and he has repeatedly made statements as above in defense of it being the way it has been implemented. When I later read his comments that if a vehicle didn't qualify for the Driven Class (due to too many indiscretions, per the stated rules), that the vehicle should be sent to the Modified Division group's show, I wanted to scream and laugh at the same time. To me, the Modified Division was NOT supposed to be about cars with some incorrect equipment added to make them more reliable or comfortable to drive, but Buicks with much more significant modifications than an alternator replacing a generator, or add-on a/c, etc.

Mr. Brooks has repeatedly stated that it was the BOD (at the time) who put the many stipulations for corrrectness into the mix. Therefore, with a different BOD and observed member input, the current BOD should review the issue (NO need for members to take the initiative, but the BOD can take that same initiative based on the comments in this forum and see what changes might need to be made to the Driven Class regulations to better mold it into what many of us perceived it SHOULD have been from the outset!) as a "board project". If BOD operatives can undertake to plan and execute a BOD National Meet, such a "board project" as revising the Driven Class should be reasonably quick and easy to do.

OR . . . how about if the existing regulations for the Driven Class are suspended for the Ames meet????? That would be one great way for the members to show what they perceive SHOULD be in the Driven Class. Verifiably drive your Buick to the meet, enter it in the Driven Class, pay for such, and that's IT--period. In addition to the normal award for participation, add one for "Oldest Buick Driven to the Meet" and one for "Longest Distance Driven to the Meet" -- at the discretion of operatives of this meet's Driven Class administration, perhaps each of these recognition categories might have two or three each, depending upon how things play out. THEN make these recognition awards "High Level" awards equal to anything in the 400 Point Judging to motivate others to, hopefully, plan to participate for such in the following year's BCA National Meet. See how it works, give it about 5 years to see if it IS working at later meets, THEN Driven Class operatives can make some "continuous improvement" tweaks as necessary to maintain a higher level of participation and FUN. How's THAT for a "business plan"?

We should thank Pat for taking the initiative for getting the Driven Class "off the ground" a decade ago. It took a good deal of work just to get to the proposal made at Kokomo that night, in the General Membership meeting. Unfortunately, things just didn't work out as many of us suspected they might.

Whatever your orientation might be regarding BCA National Meets, they should be FUN to make happen and FUN to participate in. Sure, some hard work is involved, as are serious planning and budgeting functions, but FUN happens for those making the meet happen when they have "satisfied customers" who had more fun than they thought they might.

As I recall, Kokomo was supposed to be a "fun meet", but didn't quite deliver with no formal, designated host hotel from which activities could disseminate from. The local convention center was supposed to serve that purpose (centralized meeting-departure location), but unless you knew who was staying where, meeting others tended to be somewhat problematic--especially without a centralized meet-greet-happy hour venue. Just my observations . . .

Hopefully, somewhere between full emphasis on the 400 Point Judging and "Fun", something of a better "happy medium" can be reached to allow and encourage more participation, attendance, and an expanding membership base via the BCA National Meets. There already is "something for everybody", we just might need to better emphasize this broad spectrum of Buick enthusiasm among a growing broad spectrum of current, former, and future age and vehicle demographic orientations.

Perhaps some are so focused on what THEY like that they are ignoring what else is out there in the Buick hobby? Perhaps it is this tight focus that might have somewhat diminished the "fun factor" of the meets? Perhaps something more in the lines of "If it's a Buick, BRING IT! We'll find someplace in the meet that you can show/drive it as you desire. Come join the BUICK FAMILY!"

Just some thoughts and observations . . .

Willis Bell 20811

[Guest my3buicks]

Well stated as usual Willis.

[Guest BJM]

There will come a day where we'll need to develop classes for vans / SUVs / CUVs because Buick made them.

BJM - in spite of what you stated (although I'm beginning to wonder if it was another thread), 10 minutes per car seems to be optimistic, again based on observation.

Hopefully the day we have some of the lesser badge engineered Buicks show up is a long way off. Buick continued to build collectible versions of cars well into the 2000's - the nicely executed 2005 LeSabre "Celebration" model for instance.

2. 10 minutes per car is good enough if you have adequate judges. I was on the 79-85 Riviera team at Rochester and had a defined role, not overextending my input. 10 minutes was plenty for me.

For someone that knows their, say 1920 Buick, is well restored to a high correct and accurate level, what difference does it make getting a BCA blessing on that knolwedge ?

I don't think it does. Just having an authentic running and driving 1920 anything is reward enough.

BUT, take my 1950 Roadmaster 2 door HT. Did I paint the dash right? Engine color correct? Correct factory offered body colors and upholstery? Huge difference.

[Thriller]

BJM - I agree that it should be able to happen within 10 minutes, as does the chair of judges training. That said, it has not been my observation in the 400 point judging.

For some, knowing that they have a well-restored vehicle is enough. For others though, they might like the recognition that a team of judges agrees. Different strokes for different folks.

Archival Class and Driven Class are completely different animals. Many archival winners can be driven, therefore could belong in both. However, there are enough rules in place for the archival class such that many, if not most, Driven Class award recipients would not qualify for an archival class award. There was the one example (I think in another thread) of trying to determine how to enter his car...if it qualifies for Archival Class, to me that is where I'd enter my car. This year, with Driven Award judging at a separate time, if you drive an archival car, you can enter in both.

[Guest my3buicks]

For someone that knows their, say 1920 Buick, is well restored to a high correct and accurate level, what difference does it make getting a BCA blessing on that knolwedge ?

I don't think it does. Just having an authentic running and driving 1920 anything is reward enough.

BUT, take my 1950 Roadmaster 2 door HT. Did I paint the dash right? Engine color correct? Correct factory offered body colors and upholstery? Huge difference.

If you are talking on the 1920 for instance the 400 point judging and let's say it gets a Senior Gold - that would definitely add some value if you wanted to resale. Maybe not a lot, but the more award you get, such as the BCA Senior Gold, AACA Jr/Sr/Gn/Gns, then it without question builds value into the car. So you know it's right, but you are giving the car a bit of a thoroughbred documentation.

[buick5563]

Before I offer more anecdotes that I think are important, I appreciate that we are having this conversation. I know that all of the BOD and the Bugle editor frequent these forums and I hope they discuss this issue.

I don't mean to offend anybody with this statement (and I generally do NOT care whether I offend someone ). I have my Senior Award hanging in my garage. I installed the Senior Preservation plaque on my grille. I have two driven awards still in the plastic baggies they came in.

I absolutely WAS one of the members who held the belief that scoring highly in the 400 point judging was the only way to prove my worth in the club. This club is elite. It has cream of the crop, top notch highly restored works of art. That said, I don't believe that MOST of the owners are ELITIST, but certainly a few are. I agree with Keith that the pedigree earned with a high scoring BCA National award will gain a few bucks, but still not to ever recoup what it costs to restore a car to that level.

I should not have received the driven award on my 63 Wildcat, because it had 1964 road wheels on it. This is technically not allowed. When Pat judged my car, he asked why I didn't register for the 400 point judging "It's a nice enough car". I was flattered, but why would I enter a modified car in 400 pt. judging (pre Modified Division) . I owned it to drive and enjoy, I just figured I wasn't 400 point worthy.

What about a friend who has late model cruise control installed in his 55 Century? He would NOT receive the Driven Award, yet he drives that car all over America. 20,000 miles since it was restored, I believe. It is a Senior car.

In Willis' post above, he mentioned this months Bugle cover car. Would that owner/ driver have driven through a hurricane returning from Batavia if it was a more desirable car than a Special sedan? Not if he had a truck/ enclosed trailer rig with a 55 Century convertible or 1954 Skylark. He probably would tell you differently, but he is no fool. The car isn't worth anything, even with a pedigree.

We need to drop the originality requirement. We don't need more categories.

If you drive your Buick, you have driven a Buick.

[Mark Shaw]

I like Mike's last line....

"We need to drop the originality requirement. We don't need more categories. If you drive your Buick, you have driven a Buick."

I would just add...; and Buicks were made to be driven!

[NTX5467]

Regarding Mike's comments about driving through hurricanes, a prudent person would check the weather and adjust their trip's route accordingly. Laptops with national mobile access cards, for example, could easily do that.

Trailering a car to the meet is not always a guarantee against no damage en route. An evasive maneuver can, sometimes, make the car shift on a flat trailer, causing rocker panel area damage--it happened to a BCA member coming to the 1996 meet in Plano. Judges were instructed to judge the car as if the damage was not there.

Respectfully,

NTX5467

[buick5563]

Obviously trips can be rerouted if there is time. Personally, I prefer to frontload my BCA National time. If there is one week ( 5 workdays) available, and 1800 miles to drive each way, the most direct, rain-laden routes must sometimes be travelled.Don't get me wrong, I like all of you guys, but the fun of the trip is getting there...driving my car. If I had less time maybe I'd fly, but it wouldn't be the same.

[Guest wildcat465]

Fun is what you make it.

I have fun at Buick events hanging out with friends I have made, share an adult beverage occasionally with them. I enjoy driving Buicks to events, I sold my trailer. I enjoy looking at Buicks, so much that I have fun judging Buicks. I have fun volunteering to help at events, I can meet more people.

That's my ideas of having fun.

Some members like to restore cars to the Nth degree, better than new. Wonderful, I will appreciate the effort put into these cars. Some modify cars to thier personal tastes, again great efforts to enjoy. Some members like to trailer cars and enjoy the amenities offered by a modern tow vehicle ( I've done it, it's very nice ). Some like to air out their frustrations here, I enjoy the many different views and ideas on how to do it right out there.

Other people's fun is different from mine, it's still fun.

I chose to float a "nasty gram" about 10 years ago on this forum and have regretted it since. I have chosen to be pretty much a spectator since. My post just perpetuated a thread that wasn't doing anything but hurting feelings. I decided to become more active and get more involved.

But, fun is still what you make it.

Pat Brooks became very enthusiastic about the driven award idea, enough to actually run for the board and help create policy for the BCA. The driven award rules were discussed ad nauseum until they were set and implimented for the 2004 BCA National in Plano. It has become extremely popular. I have my opinion on the cut off year for this award and I think I will share it with a board member or two. I personally feel this is the best way for my voice to be heard. The BOD is and has been very approachable, you can share your views with them directly.

"Are you just saying you want to have fun, or do you really want to have some FUN?"

We are a diverse group and everyone has a different view to everything. Like anything else, it will never be perfect to everyone. I have chosen to adapt more to what it is rather than what I think it can be. I am now having more fun. Between 400 point judging, archival, modified, driven, and display only choices; I am clueless as to what else the BCA can add to accomodate more. I think the year cut offs are important to have ( I could get used to driving the 2004 Rainier to all events, but really do not want to look at a whole line of them when I get there ). I specifically sought out a T-Type Riviera to drive to events and found one. I am now doing someting else I call "fun" and am trying to get this car to be a reliable driver ( keep me in your prayers, please ). I know that my ideas are fun are not the same as others.

Just make sure you are having YOUR kind of fun, and respect others kinds of fun.

There goes the last last two pennies in my pocket.

[Thriller]

I should not have received the driven award on my 63 Wildcat, because it had 1964 road wheels on it. This is technically not allowed. When Pat judged my car, he asked why I didn't register for the 400 point judging "It's a nice enough car". I was flattered, but why would I enter a modified car in 400 pt. judging (pre Modified Division) . I owned it to drive and enjoy, I just figured I wasn't 400 point worthy.

Mike - I may be wrong, but having period Buick wheels does not disqualify you from the driven award. Having period correct mags like Cragars or Centerlines does disqualify you.

If I am incorrect, I hope Pat or someone else in the hierarchy will correct me.

Paul - well put. Fun is what you make of it. If getting a car judged stresses you out - washing, detailing, swapping headlights, etc. just to get that extra point or two, it probably isn't fun for you. There are other options. Year cut offs for classes make sense to me, but if the reason for them isn't explained well enough, it seems arbitrary. 25 years old for the driven class makes it about old Buicks. Perhaps it is too high.

I guess another question becomes how we come to decisions like this. There are always members who want things a particular way, but perhaps the conflicts with the BoD meetings at the Nationals in recent years are hindering the membership's input. Do 20, 50, or 100 members who attend the open meeting at the National provide a true representation of the club? I don't think so. The board members are approachable. Would it perhaps make sense to put together a couple of questions to create a short survey that goes with BoD ballots? So, once a year members could have a direct say in the running of the club. Even if only 10% participate, that is significantly larger than the crowd at a given National.

Well, I seem to be blathering again....

[buick5563]

Derek,

Road wheels came out in 1964. They could not have come on the car originally. That would be a disqualification, I believe. Again, I may be wrong.

I just don't think Cragars or alternators make a difference in whether someone drove the car. Sure, eBay auctions are full of "restored" cars with Centerline wheels that we all know are not correct, but if a car is sold as a "driver", these same issues are overlooked (by me at least). I realize this is a different scenario, but the wording is the same.

I will be driving my 55 to Iowa this year. It will have a display only card on it.

I am looking forward to the forum breakfast, and a glass of something with my friends at night.

I'm out of this now...

[Thriller]

Mike,

This is from page 9 of the http://www.buickclub.org/BCA%20JUDGING%20MANUAL/BCAjudgingrev2.pdf (page numbering, not PDF page count):

Vehicle Originality & Repair:

Each Buick must be equipped with the following

original or period items: Engine, clutch, transmission,

rear end (differential), brakes, steering and lights. No

vehicle shall be disqualified based upon the use of radial

tires, sealed beam/halogen headlights or the presence of

a non-factory overdrive system. Body and trim must

be of components original and appropriate for the year

and model involved. The interior must be structurally

unaltered and structurally complete. The vehicle

must be in reasonably clean condition.

If there is something there saying it has to be year correct, I don't see it. The only thing is that I recall some clarification going on. Whatever clarification goes on in the Bugle will hopefully be added to the Judging Manual. To me, even though the road wheels came out a year later, that is period. Again, I am not the authority here.

Based on the above, my interpretation would be that the Centerline wheels on my pace car should be allowed as they are period correct. If they were new 18" Boyd or whatever wheels, I wouldn't be bringing this up. All I'm trying to do here is understand the system myself and hopefully alleviate confusion for others by getting a definitive clarification. Unfortunately, my world isn't organized enough to be able to easily find a particular Bugle which may have had additional clarification.

Ultimately, my motivation also includes getting my registration in. If I can't get an answer soon as to whether my car should be modified driven class or driven class, then maybe I'll just plan to leave it behind and just bring the wagon down. In some respects that makes life easier.

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Good Morning All: Some interesting and valid thoughts. What I think is that we need a MODERN DRIVING CLASS which could accommodate Buick vehicles not in the other classes and modified vehicles not entered in the Modified Class. The rules would be minimal and yet recognition could be given. Patrick W. Brooks:)