Dash inverter removal ideas?

[DAVES89]

I am looking to replace my inverter. I believe it to be at fault. The pod lights would come on, flicker, go out , and then come on and stay on. The "show" always worked. Just yeasterday the pod lights don't come on in the "show" and the pod lights no longer come on at all. As I have just gone thru checking the conection at the photocell, the top vent panel is not snapped in.

Is it better to try going from the top to remove the inverter or do I come up from the bottom?

Any removal tips?

[Ronnie]

Dave, Sorry, I don't know the best way to do it. Once you find out please take the time to document how to do it and I will add it to ROJ. Thanks!

[Guest kennyw]

You do it from the bottom. You can't do it from the top of the dash. The module is held in by a one way push pin. Same idea used on a wiring harness. Problem is you can't get to the top side to collapse the arrow shaped prongs. The only way is to pull hard enough to break this push pin. O>K> the module does have a pug in:> but you can't get two hands up there to do a disconnect. It is one of those things, where if you can see it you can't touch and and vice-versa. Just get you hand on it and pull until the push pin breaks. Then you can get two hands on it and unplug it. I just put mine back amoung the many wires. It won't rattle there. No reason to put it back in it's original hole. I have pictures. Note:> as you can see in the inlargement the push pin touches the underside of the NOW brittle dash. If you were to try and push it out from the tip all you will do is end up cracking the dash.........Picture taken through the windshield. Dash has been removed so you can view how it is attached..........ken

Edited January 17, 2010 by kennyw (see edit history)

[harry yarnell]

If you took the dash pad off, why can't you just take it out the top, instead of the bottom? Seems that's the way I did it years ago (memory isn't as good as it used to be...).

[DAVES89]

Thanks for the help. How are the connections to remove? I am going to practice on one at the yard first so I learn.

I tell you this car is making me an old man. I get in this car to take it to the car [no easy trick in 25 degree weather] wash and everything lights up in the garage. I get home close the door and the pod lights don't come on. I take the keys, get out of the car, go to reenter and now the "show" and the pods don't light up.

I bet after I watch the Vikes lose and go back out, it will work. This car truely is a psycho car, but I will get it all back.

[2reattas]

i have a similar problem, my pod lights usually dont come on when i turn the lights on, i lighty push on off button and wiggle and they will come on, and then some times the will work mormal. just a thought

[DAVES89]

Regarding the "show". I forgot that I need to replace the drivers side door actuator. It was in the door locked position, which cancels the "show", even if the door does not lock. Took it for a drive and the pod lights work. Grrrrrrr

[Don B.]

Isn't the CRT power by the inverter? If that's still working then I don't think the inverter is bad.

[harry yarnell]

No, the CRT isn't powered by the inverter.

The missing pod lights on the '90-91 models can be easily fixed by shorting A1 (yel) and A7 (grey) leads on the headlight switch. Don't think that'll work on the '88-89 cars.

[Barney Eaton]

The inverters look like relays but have pastel colored covers. One is a pale red/pink the other is a pale blue/green. There is little information on these devices, and they cannot put out much power based on their small size.

Some old notes I have indicate there was a #1636498, 20625421 (orange), and 1636499 used on 1986 Rivieras.

Listed for 1987-1989 Riviera and Reatta was #1642274, 1642275, and 1642276 (blue housing)

These pink one have part #1642275 on them

Edited January 19, 2010 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

Are they interchangeable? I have and extra Riv. console inverter and can get dash Riv inverters as well.

[padgett]

Think one is 50ma and the other is 75 or sommat, not much. MFR would know, phone number is in one of the older posts. Can probably interchange.

If changing the dash inverter from the bottom, bind arm against sharps, there are many. Best to enlist someone with skinny arms.

[Guest kennyw]

Harry:> this was on a donor car. I took the dash off in pieces. If you can get a dash off in one piece with no damage you are better than I am. As one can see with the dash out of the way you can do it from the top. View the dash damage done by the push pin. This was done just trying to find it from the top. No way are you going to collapse the push pin from the top with out dash damage. Ken

[DAVES89]

I wish you would have taken a look at the writeup on Ronnies site on making a "lift" tool to remove that panel.It also had the measurements on where the lift points are.

Dashes are about $100.00 to $150.00 plus about 3 hours labor...

[Ronnie]

Ken, was the inverter originally attached to the round hole that is near the square slot in your photo? I would like to use your photo if you don't mind in a tutorial.

[Guest kennyw]

Ronnie:> the first picture I posted shows the inverter in the original hole with the prongs of the one way pin in place as you would find it in an 88 or 89 Reatta.

There is really only one way to get the inverter out. That is grab hold of it and pull until the pin breaks. I would not try to put the new one back as you take the chance of pushing it into the dash. If your car has seen a lot of sun the dash is like taffy. Mine was way beyond brittle. JUST BE CAREFUL WHEN PULLING. A LOT OF SHARP THINGS UP THERE, that you cannot see.............You can use any of my pictures to help others fix their Reatta. ken

[Ronnie]

Thanks Ken.

Do you think a tool could be fabricated that would make it easier and safer to pull the inverter loose? If so, any ideas on how it should made?

I was thinking maybe a length of flatbar with a 90 degree bend on the end (might need a notch in the center of the bent part so it would fit around the plastic attachment pin) that could be slipped between the inverter and the sheet metal it attaches to in order to pull down on it. If made correctly such a tool could be used from below the dash to pull down on the inverter to break it loose without having to put your arm and hands inside the dash. Such a tool may already exist for that purpose but I have not seen one.

Maybe something similar to the tool below could be modified for removing the inverter. It is 10" long.

Sold by harbor freight - ITEM 5247-5VGA -$2.99

I'm just throwing this out as an idea on a safer way to remove the inverter. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.

I'm wanting to do a tutorial on an easy and safe way to remove the inverter but right now I don't really have enough information to do it right. I have never removed an inverter myself and hope I never have to.

[89REATTAJIM]

The tool idea looks good, but I think it would have to be much smaller, then you would lose your leverage. AFAIR there is barely enough room to get a tool up there, much less swing the handle to pry the inverter loose. I'm with you, hope I never have to do this..... Jim

[Guest kennyw]

As I said before:> you can either see it or touch it:> You cannot be looking up and get a tool in at the same time. You might [feel] a tool up and in place but what is the point? It is only a 20 year old cable push pin. The same one used for wiring harnesses. There were times on the assembly line when someone put a wrong harness on the radiator support. I would just grab the harness and break all of the push pins in one fell swoop. Remember the assembly line was running at 60 jobs an hour. Other people were trying to install a.c. condensers, radiators, fan shrouds, etc and on and on. Its not a big deal. Get the bottom trim panel out of the way. Move some of the wiring aside. Put on a leather glove and just snatch it out. Remember, Your not going to put it back into that hole anyway. Just lay the new one amongst the wiring. It will stay there until the cows come home. Glad I did because with my car sitting all of the time my lights are also out again. Ken

[padgett]

Wrap your whole arm with an ACE bandage if going in from the bottom. Mine has healed but looked like I tried to stop a cat fight.

[Guest NEMO]

Try using a small slide hammer

[Ronnie]

After reading this entire thread to find information that I could use to write a tutorial on replacing the inverter, I have came up with the following...

Inverter Removal Instructions:

1. Remove the trim panel under the dash on the driver's side
   
2. Wrap you arm with an ACE bandage
   
3. Grasp the inverter firmly
   
4. Pull down on the inverter really hard until it comes loose
   

... it looks like a tutorial may not be needed after all.

[padgett]

Well 2.5 - locate the inverter (with one hand using braille)

5: remove connector with one hand while still in dash (wires are not long enough to come out)

6: connect wires to new inverter with one hand in dash (easier than (5))

7: wedge device somewhere

[Guest kennyw]

Ronnie:> add what padgett posted. Sometimes you have to fish the module through the wires, [that you cannot see], until it drops down far enough to get both hands on it to pull the connector off. Your next post should finish this thread...........ken

[Fox W.]

I should have used the ACE bandage. My arm and hands are pretty roughed up, a couple good cuts too. What a PITA... My inverter has flickered ever since I acquired the car.. Years ago, after reading posts on this forum to learn the location of the inverter, I found that wiggling it and bending the 12v connector a bit could make it work more consistently.... For awhile..

Recently I manipulated it too much and the inverter came down/broke from it's mount pin. After trying to disconnect it entirely, the plate with the terminals had separated from the rest of the inverter.. So I still have yet to manage to get the connectors separated from the terminals.. very hard to do with one hand.

I wonder if Barney still has any more of these to sell. First I am going to try this one I found on Ebay. Since we don't know what the frequency of ours are (do we?) we can't say if this one will be too bright/dim when compared to the console.. But it will be interesting to see.

I was happy to see that the dimmers' modulation is mutually exclusive from the inverter (no extra wires) so generic replacements can be used. 12V DC to AC Power inverter EL Lamp electroluminescent - eBay (item 330415487751 end time Mar-26-10 01:14:59 PDT)

Attached pic shows the inverter without it's terminal cover, of which came off.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Fox,

Looked at the ebay listing for the inverter you mentioned above, and watch out: that one is spec'd at 500VAC output, not 110VAC like the original part. This will likely cook your EL back lighting as it is well beyond the design voltage of the EL strips used in the Reatta. There is usually some tolerance on voltage (which determines the maximum illumination brightness) but a 450% increase is likely to end badly (as in burned out EL strips). If it didn't burn them out, it would increase the brightness substantially - probably so much as to be distracting - and shorten any remaining service life from the lighting in the pods, gear shift indicator, window/seat switch etc.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

I have an extra pink inverter [dash] and black inverter [console].

Not being an electronics wizard I tested both of them. Using my CEN-Tech 7 function Digital Multimter #92020 purchased at Harbor Freight.

Testing the pink inverter I put the black lead in the common plug on the voltmeter and attached it to the white wire. I then plugged red lead into the middle hole on the voltmeter and attached it to the blue wire.

I then connected my portable power station ground to the 12 volt black ground wire on the inverter and the red power lead to the gray wire. I then located my inverter dial to ACV at the 200 setting.

I then tested the black console inverter.

I got 117 on the pink inverter

I got 136 on the black inverter

Could the black one be used in the dash without causing any problems?

Any other tests I can run?

[KDirk]

Dave,

I imagine there is a margin of error on the voltage output of these, and is rather loosely regulated. 136V is not that much over the spec'd output of 110VAC, so other than a minor increase in max brightness, I don't think there is any harm to be done by substituting it. However, I know one has less current capability than the other. Refresh my memory: pink vs. black one, which has the greater mA rating?

I ask because one can sub a higher current rated part for a lower one (the load will draw only as much as it needs) but not a lower rated current for higher, as this will result in an overload that will burn up the inverter.

The only other unknown is the frequency of the AC output. EL lighting typically likes to be driven at 400Hz or so, this eliminates flicker that might be seen at 60Hz [as some people can detect in fluorescent lighting]. While this is probably not a critical design requirement, I do not know what effect the pulse-width-modulation of the supply voltage coming from the interior lamp dimmer control may have with respect to the output frequency of the inverter.

Since I have to assume both the stock inverters supply the output voltage at the same frequency, that is not a problem. It is a consideration if wanting to try some other off-the-shelf generic EL inverter from another supplier. If Endicott Research (the supplied I think has been mentioned here on the forum) can supply a current production part as a suitable replacement, that would be ideal.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

Padgett said one time that one has 85 Ma the other 55Ma. The only problem is which one [He couldn't remember]? I am willing to check, but how do I do that?

Also how do I check the Hz? If you think that is important to know...

[KDirk]

Dave,

Not sure how to check if they aren't labeled, this would require a current meter and a "dummy load" in varying increments to determine the max usable current output of each device. I suppose if you could do a current measurement in-car with a working inverter, you could see the actual draw on each of the two circuits. Whichever inverter has to light more surface area would be the one with higher current output. The dash has 2 switch pods, and the backlit frame around the CRT with the 6 hard button legends. The console has the shift indicator, the window switch and mirror control switch.

Since the current required to drive EL sheet is contingent largely on surface area (larger area requires more drive current) then the circuit that has the greatest cumulative area of illumination would be the one with higher output current. Just based on what I have seen in pictures, the dash seems to have a greater surface area with the two switch pods and the CRT switch border. Unless I am unknowingly forgetting some other parts of the dash or cluster that are EL back lighted, these seems to make sense.

Hopefully Padgett or someone else with working knowledge of the system can chime in with confirmation, until then do not take what I have said above as as gospel.

FWIW, The frequency can only be checked with a frequency meter, or a multi-meter that includes a frequency measuring function. I have a good Amprobe digital meter that does this, but I don't think you need be too much concerned with that anyway unless you are going to try and sub a non-stock part.

KDirk

[Guest Drake]

Hello fellas, I'm at work right now, but I will post the information from Endicott I received when I purchased my new inverters. I do remember that the dashboard and center console inverters were NOT interchangeable. I get off at midnight, so it'll be about 1:30 a.m. when I post the information.

As Barney posted, the pink inverter is for the dashboard and the black one is for the center console.

[Guest Drake]

Here's the information on the inverters:

Dashboard Inverter (pink) part #1642275

<> Input voltage = 13.8Vdc

<> Input current = max of 90madc

<> Output voltage = 100Vrms +/- 10%

<> Output Freq. = 860 Hz =/-90Hz

Center Console Inverter (black) part #1642274

<> Input voltage = 13.8Vdc

<> Input current = max of 50madc

<> Output voltage = 100Vrms +/- 10%

<> Output Freq. = 840Hz =/-60Hz

You will notice that the primary difference is in the input current value, with other values either the same or similar. This input current difference reflects the relative size of the EL lamp it is driving.

NOTE: The inverter should not be powered up with no load - it may damage the inverter. ALSO, they are NOT interchangeable.

The above information was obtained from Endicott Research Group, Inc.

Hope this information helps.

[DAVES89]

How much were they?

[KDirk]

Dave,

I looked at their website earlier today, and do not see any equivalent parts currently available - at least through their online store. They do sell some EL inverters that are within the voltage range needed, but lesser current and lower frequency. Their focus seems to have shifted more heavily towards CCFL and LED backlighting drivers which are more commonly used now than EL.

Perhaps a call to speak with a real person there may be in order. Their web site if you care to peruse it is:

ERG supports all major manufacturers of CCFL- and EL- backlit LCDs

I also did some searching elsewhere, and found a handful of inverters with adequate power output, but none apparently compatible with a PWM voltage input for dimming purposes.

KDirk

[Guest Drake]

Working again tonight, but I'll post ALL of the information when I get home. I do remember that the GM part numbers I listed are the same ones Endicot uses. They are not on their web site. I'll give you the contact person's name, address, phone number and pricing. They still had quite a few left in stock, as of last April.

[KDirk]

Drake,

Good to know; I was wondering if you had ordered new ones from them or if they just happened to have the old documentation and supplied you with the specs. Now we know, and I suppose they will be getting some phone calls next week. Boy, won't they wonder what prompted the sudden interest in 20 year old parts.

KDirk

[Ronnie]

...Now we know, and I suppose they will be getting some phone calls next week. Boy, won't they wonder what prompted the sudden interest in 20 year old parts. ...

I don't mean to take the wind out of anyone's sails but just for the record... Most of the relevant information in this thread is not really new. The vendor information, [Reatta Parts Vendors], and instructions for testing the inverter, [Reatta Inverter Testing Instructions], have been on my website since May 2009. That is when I first saw the information on this forum. It was supplied by Padgett.

Thanks Padgett for allowing me to post the information.

[Guest Drake]

Had some time at work this evening, and found my original Posts on the inverters. On April 29,2009 I ordered four inverters from Endicott, two dashboard & two console. I received them on May 6,2009. The total cost was $100.00 for the inverters and $8.64 shipping.

I dealt with Jeanine Decker (607) 754-9187 Ext. 3048

At that time, I was told that there were 18 console inverters in stock and LOADS of dashboard inverters in stock (not sure how many LOADS means).

Original Thread by steveskyhawk on April 9, 2009

Forgot to mention: $100.00 minimum order per item. They were kind enough to let me split the order, two of each.

I'll say this, that $25.00 inverter sure cured my lighting issues.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Drake (see edit history)

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Since I started that thread I have solved my illumination problems in short order. I now have enough inverters to fix 20 cars. I have found that when powered up they whine if they are putting out about 110vac. Dont even need a volt meter. I can tell by the sound.

Tip: If the console doesnt light up get down and listen for the inverter. If you cant hear it take it out and power it up. If it tests ok maybe it isnt getting power. Look at the FSM and find out where the 12vdc stops and correct the problem. Change out parts as needed. My 89 lights up like new.

[DAVES89]

Ronnie, I had been looking at your website. From there I got most of the info I needed location, testing, model# and manufacturing] but had some last questions. Thank you.

As I did the console "upgrade" and the backlighting doesn't work on my window/mirror switch [thats OK as the console lighting "upgrade" illuminates that area good enough for me], I will be ordering dash inverters for sure.

Based on what Drake said about minimum order of $100.00 per line item, I would have extra.

Based on Drakes pricing of $25.00 ea plus the freight of $8.64 divided by the four inverters he bought equals $2.16 This would make the net cost to me of $27.16 each. I would sell them at $32.00 each freight delivered to you.

Please PM me if you are intersted in going in on this...