Question about "orphans"

[Guest myold88]

Is my antique Oldsmobile an orphan ?. My car club consensus is that it's not as G.M. is the parent co. of Oldsmobile and is still in business. I feel it is as Oldsmobiles are no longer produced. Is the Cadillac LaSalle an orphan ?. Has the AACA ruled on this or is there a list of accepted orphans. I would like an answer before our next annual car show this July- Thanks.

[Barry Wolk]

I got the Orphan Car Show in Ypsilanti to accept the Continental Mark II on the basis that the Continental Division is defunct, even though Ford still exists. I think your argument is valid.

[Steve Moskowitz]

AACA does not have any method of ruling on "orphans" but as an Olds guy myself I do not think there is any question at all that Oldsmobile is now considered an orphan. Even more so with the bankruptcy and the formation of a new GM! Just my personal opinion!

[trimacar]

This from an "Orphan Car" tour found on Internet, regarding a DC area tour; sounds right to me as far as a definition goes.

What is the Orphan Car Tour?

The Orphan Car Tour is an annual afternoon-long driving tour for antique "orphan" (i.e., discontinued make not models) automobiles held every June........

Who is Eligible?

The Tour is open to "orphan" antique cars defined as automobiles at least 25 years old, which were produced either by now-defunct manufacturers, or by the discontinued divisions of still existing companies.

[Barry Wolk]

Exactly.

[Guest Siegfried]

When does this tour occur? I have a 37,000 mile 1977 AMC Hornet, and might like to participate.

[trimacar]

Hi- you just missed it. Put it on the calendar for next year!

http://www.orphancartour.org/

[Barry Wolk]

Here's a link to the Orphan Car Show in Ypsilanti. It was two weeks ago.

Orphan Car Show

[Guest Orphanauto]

As a collector and driver of ONLY orphancars, I would say yes, Oldds is a orphan car as well as Lasalle, but that's just my professional opinion, haha, how do you as a car nut become a "pro", self named I guess, haha. I have nbever had a olds, but would LOVE to have a 50;s olds, great cars..

[Reatta Man]

GM claims to be 'reinventing' itself, whatever that means.

Since they are going through BK court, and IF (big IF) they declare all of their previous stock to be invalid or worthless as far as the new company is concerned, and this really is a new company that just happens to have the same name as the old GM, then technically, it is possible that ALL 25-year-old GM cars are orphans.

If that seems odd, think of Bulova, Curtis Mathes, and many other former American brands that were bought by various importers just so they could stamp a recognized name on imported Chinese junk.

Sort of like what will probably happen with Hummer.....

Joe

[keiser31]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GM claims to be 'reinventing' itself, whatever that means.

Since they are going through BK court, and IF (big IF) they declare all of their previous stock to be invalid or worthless as far as the new company is concerned, and this really is a new company that just happens to have the same name as the old GM, then technically, it is possible that ALL 25-year-old GM cars are orphans.

If that seems odd, think of Bulova, Curtis Mathes, and many other former American brands that were bought by various importers just so they could stamp a recognized name on imported Chinese junk.

Sort of like what will probably happen with Hummer.....

Joe</div></div>

Orphans....adopted out....same thing to me. New or no parents.

[LINC400]

For orphan car shows around here, the company or division has to be out of business for 10 years, and the car has to be 25 years old or older. For Olds and Plymouth, cars newer than 1960 cannot be shown. They did this to keep out the muscle cars. Otherwise the field would be overrun with them, and there would be no room for more worthy orphans such as Kaiser, Pierce Arrow and Packard. I assume the same will apply for Pontiac.

[Restorer32]

Little known auto trivia, Ford bought rights to the Winged Mercury emblem from Kissel after Kissel stopped producing autos in 1932 or so.

[RPrice]

Our local Studebaker Drivers Club on Long Island is having our annual Studebaker Reunion and Orphan Car show this Sunday in Massapequa.

We include all orphans, including Oldsmobile, LaSalle or any car now longer produced. Nuff said?

Rog

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is my antique Oldsmobile an orphan ?. My car club consensus is that it's not as G.M. is the parent co. of Oldsmobile and is still in business</div></div>Another way to look at it would be with the Oakland, Oakland and Pontiac were one of the same, Pontiac is part of GM, and like Oldsmobile, they're both gone.

I think because Oldsmobile hasn't been gone that long is why it may not be considered an orphan.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Dave Fields & Dave@Moon:

I deleted your posts as they drifted totally off the topic which is no surprise to the Moderating team. Easier to delete now than after a few days of collecting all sorts of non-thread topic discussion.

Should you have any questions please send me a PM so as not to ruin the thread topic...Thank you in advance.

Peter J.

[Guest Orphanauto]

I was thinking of another way to come up with a reasonable answer beside my name is orphanauto therefore I am the authority haha, Do you consider Desoto a orphan? of course, everyone does, but wait aminute, isn't desoto by Chrysler who is still alive? I consider GM to be the business end, with each DIVISION to be a seperate make or Division. Kinda like GM, is the grandfather of the mother ( parent ) company. Seems like everyone here is in agreement that Oldsmobile is a "orphan" car.

[rocketraider]

And an orphan who did mighty well for itself and its parent until the parent starved it to death... I believe in most civilised countries filicide is immoral and illegal.

The joke on other Oldsmobile forums is that Olds had to have been the glue that was holding GM together, since GM really went to hell in a handbasket after they killed off their Rocket child.

[Guest Skyking]

I wonder if Nash Metropolitan is an orphan........

Let's see, in 1957 AMC bought Nash & Hudson, later on Chrysler bought AMC, then we have Daimler buying Chrysler, then Cerberus buying Chrysler, and now Fiat being thrown into the mix.........Talk about confusing

[LINC400]

While I agree that Oldsmobile is an orphan, I still like the way it is handled around here. Nothing newer than 1960 for Olds, Plymouth and eventually Pontiac. Every cruise night I go to has tons of 442's, Cutlasses, GTO's, Barracudas, Roadrunners, etc. I have nothing against those cars, but when I go to an orphan show, I want to see the cars that you don't see at cruise nights. Nash, Hudson, Packard, Kaiser. They enacted that rule becuase they had a limited amount of space and didn't want 20 Cutlasses while they had to turn away the one Kaiser, Pierce Arrow, and Hupmobile that showed up because there was no room for them. As someone said in another thread, soon the orphan shows won't look much different than the regular car shows they way everything keeps getting dropped.

[rocketraider]

Linc, you'd do better to cut it off at 1965 since the muscle era didn't really get off the ground till 1966 or so. You will rarely see a 1964 or 65 442 even at big all-Olds shows. A 1960 cutoff date eliminates some of the most interesting and adventurous cars Oldsmobile ever made- including the very technologically advanced for its time Jetfire, the first production turbocharged American car.

Then again you rarely if ever see a Jetfire or 61-63 F85/Cutlass even at the OCA Nationals.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if Nash Metropolitan is an orphan........

Let's see, in 1957 AMC bought Nash & Hudson, later on Chrysler bought AMC, then we have Daimler buying Chrysler, then Cerberus buying Chrysler, and now Fiat being thrown into the mix.........Talk about confusing </div></div>

Why are you simplifiying this Bob?

Bear in mind that Nash, which wasn't AMC yet, negotiated with several companies including Fiat for the manufacture of the NXI, later called the Metropolitan. Austin Motors, just merged into the Nuffield Organization to form British Motor Corp. (BMC), won the contract in 1954 and provided most of the mechanicals. The Metropolitan was a captive import manufactured totally in the U.K. until cancelled in 1961.

In 1966 struggling BMC was merged with profitable Jaguar and Pressed Steel (a body contractor) into British Motor Holdings (BMH). In 1968 still struggling BMH was merged into profitable Leyland Motor Corp. to form the infamous British Leyland (BL).

Now it gets complicated. BL (at least the car division) remained more or less intact until 1982, when the Austin-Rover Group (ARG) was formed in a seperate division from Jaguar/Daimler. It was renamed Rover Group in 1986, although Austin was still an active brand. In 1987 the Austin brand was mothballed. In 1988 ARG (now called Rover group) was sold to British Aerospace, who subsequently sold it to BMW.

Now it really gets complicated. BMW bought Rover Group in 1993. The MG, Austin and Rover brands were sold off by BMW to the Phoenix Consortium as MG/Rover in 2000 for 10 pounds, keeping the (formerly) Austin Mini as the Mini Division of BMW. MG/Rover went belly-up in 2005, ending the last British-owned mass-produced automobile company. The assets were purchased by Nanjing Motors of China, which currently is producing 3 MG models there and is considering (seriously) reviving the Austin marque as a cheaper version of the MG.

So now the original manufacturer of the Metropolitan is split between a division of BMW still using an original Austin plant in the U.K., and a Chinese concern that employs less than 50 people at a tiny assembly plant in a small part of another U.K. plant (but thousands in China). Technically there are 2 Austins today, one of which was never bankrupt or out of production.

=====================

BTW, the sale of brands from BMW to the Phoenix Consortium did not include Triumph. For some reason BMW still holds the rights to that name. If and when they ever re-introduce the marque (well-founded rumors of such occur regularly), my TR6 will technically not be an "orphan" any more.

[RPrice]

When our local Studebaker club holds its annual reunion & orphan car show (yesterday), we include, as ophans, Oldsmobile, soon Pontiac, or any car no longer made. Even though they were built by GM, they're still orphans in our eyes.

Rog

[LINC400]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocketraider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Linc, you'd do better to cut it off at 1965 since the muscle era didn't really get off the ground till 1966 or so. You will rarely see a 1964 or 65 442 even at big all-Olds shows. A 1960 cutoff date eliminates some of the most interesting and adventurous cars Oldsmobile ever made- including the very technologically advanced for its time Jetfire, the first production turbocharged American car.

Then again you rarely if ever see a Jetfire or 61-63 F85/Cutlass even at the OCA Nationals.

</div></div>

It isn't my show, and they aren't my rules, but I do agree with them. How would you like to show up with your Hupmobile only to be told, park with the spectators, there is no room for your car because the GTO club showed up and took over half the field. Besides if the Jetfire and F85 don't even show up at Olds nationals, I doubt that there is a pile of them waiting to get into the orphan show here.

There is no problem with post 1960 cars that are not Olds, Pontiac and Plymouth. How many post 1960 other orphans are there? A few AMC's, DeSotos, Deloreans, and Studebakers. Certainly not enough to threaten taking over the field like with Olds, Pontiac, and Plymouth. None of those were low production divisions in 1960's and 1970's.

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, this goes deeper than I thought!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, this goes deeper than I thought! </div></div>

Apparently!

When humorous, self-deprecating posts about being confused start disappearing it's getting pretty deep indeed.

[mrpushbutton]

As the (powerless) president of the OCCA-- the Orphan Car Club of America the thought of all GM cars becoming orphans has our queen bee in a tizzy! Stay tuned, it's only going to get interesting from here.

[john2dameron]

To me, any make that has been discontinued is an orphan. I don't understand why a Kaiser is more worthy than an Oldsmobile. Is my son John maybe more worthy than Steven or vice versa. Heaven forbid.

[Guest Trunk Rack]

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I have noticed in various publications where cars like this are offered for sale, people to refer to their cars as "Cadillac La Salles", as does this fellow in his post here.

I have owned many Cadillacs down thru the years; dont recall any paperwork or data plates calling them Cadillac-La Salles.

Never owned a LaSalle. Thought it was a separate make within the GM family, meaning I thought it had a separate make identify, but, being within the GM family, has lots of parts that are same as other GM makes. I do recall in the late 30's it had a in-line eight whereas at that time, Cadillac had V-type engines.

Can someone who owns a "Cadillac LaSalle" straighten me out on this ? Meaning, specifically, exactly what does it say on the car's paper-work and mfg's data plate ? "Cadillac ? Cadillac-La Salle"....or just plain "La Salle".... ? ? ? ?

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I have noticed in various publications where cars like this are offered for sale, people to refer to their cars as "Cadillac La Salles", as does this fellow in his post here.

I have owned many Cadillacs down thru the years; dont recall any paperwork or data plates calling them Cadillac-La Salles.

Never owned a LaSalle. Thought it was a separate make within the GM family, meaning I thought it had a separate make identify, but, being within the GM family, has lots of parts that are same as other GM makes. I do recall in the late 30's it had a in-line eight whereas at that time, Cadillac had V-type engines.

Can someone who owns a "Cadillac LaSalle" straighten me out on this ? Meaning, specifically, exactly what does it say on the car's paper-work and mfg's data plate ? "Cadillac ? Cadillac-La Salle"....or just plain "La Salle".... ? ? ? ?

Blame the "average American schmoe"... there were never "officially" any "Nash-Ramblers", "Kaiser-Frazers", "DeSoto-Plymouths", non-GM "Frigidaire" refrigerators, etc.

Nor were there "Edison Victrolas", but I see them all the time on eBay...

There was also no such thing as a "VIN number" prior to 1970 either; it was a "serial number". (Try having THAT discussion at your local DMV ! :mad: )

At any rate, I think any retired Badge (marque) is elegible to be an "Orphan" car / truck... supposedly Graham-Paige still exists as a coporate entity, but now a real-estate holdings company... that existence doesn't mean Graham, Paige are NOT orphan cars.

For the post-1961 Orphans, I would suggest a "Second Generation Orphan Car", similar to the SGCV designation in AACA ?

By that definition, the last "first -generation" orphan would be De Soto.

[Guest Skyking]

Blame the "average American schmoe"... there were never "officially" any "Nash-Ramblers",

But Frank, the song "Beep Beep" says so..........:eek:

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Blame the "average American schmoe"... there were never "officially" any "Nash-Ramblers",

But Frank, the song "Beep Beep" says so..........:eek:

Well, I guess you've got me there, Sky King ! ( and me, a newly-minted AM guy!)

( My own dear mother has always referred to her dear-departed '61 American convertible as her "little Nash-Rambler", and Mom is neither a "gear-head" nor a pop-culture maven... )

( Wonder if there are any "Stanley-Locomobiles" out there ? )