What's With Hydrogen?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What percentage of the mileage on a typical Prius is battery driven? Impossible to know I guess but I suspect the vast majority of the miles are powered by dead dinosaurs. </div></div>

45-48 mpg from a car slightly larger than a Chevy Malibu (the new one as well as the old one) speaks for itself.

However to answer the question directly there are 2 things. First, it doesn't matter because the battery powers the wheels in conjuction with the engine. They work at the same time, it's not an either/or situation. Second the time spent in battery-only mode varies widely with driving style and topography. You can be using the engine at a steady 5 mph going up a steep grade, but not have it running at all driftng down a hill at 70 mph.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How much pollution will it cause when they dump the car batteries from electric cars or hybrids? </div></div>

If someone was going to pay you $300.00 for anything, would you "dump it"?

The materials in these batteries is so valuable that I doubt <span style="text-decoration: underline">anyone</span> would be stupid enough to dispose of it. However if someone was dumb enough not to recycle one, the nickel-metal hydride batteries contain only metals of very low toxic potential. Compared to lead-acid or Ni-Cd batteries they're mother's milk to the environment.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could buy a heck of alot of gas a $7 a gallon and it would be the same or a little more than a car payment... </div></div>

I financed the entire price of the Prius over 66 months (of necessity, I was "upside down" on my Nissan truck). My car payment would buy 71 gallons of gas/month @ $7/gal. In a 20 mpg (combined) mileage car that's 17,040 miles/yr. If you drive that much in a '89 Buick getting 20 mpg (that <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> breaks down) and switch to the Prius, in a $7/gal. world the Prius is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">free!</span></span>

17K miles may not be as much as you drive, but it's well below what many, many people drive every year. That's why there are 9 year old Priuses with 360,000 miles on them.

[Matt Harwood]

Why all the hybrid hate?

Just wondering why everyone here is so resistant to hybrids and looking to find chinks in the armor. Is it because it's Toyota making all the money and getting all the credit (if you want to be angry with Toyota, there are better reasons)? Is it because Dave is a proponent and it's fun to argue with him? Is it because the Hollywood elite are so smug about it? Everyone on this board in particular seems to be looking for reasons not to buy one or that they will ultimately lead to bigger problems. Why?

Do you think nobody has thought of these problems and working on solutions? Batteries can be recycled, and most automakers are paying for used ones. They aren't getting dumped in landfills.

Buying a hybrid just to save on gas if you have a perfectly functioning car that is paid-for is not good economic sense. But if you're looking for a new car, what's the beef with hybrids? If you need a mid-sized 4-door, and you're looking to spend $25K (where there are a lot of choices), why not choose one that gets 40 MPG instead of 25? It is certainly a more effective and realistic technology than a backyard hydrogen contraption that you bolt to your small-block Chevy.

Just curious to know about the motivations for running down (ha!) the hybrids...

[Reatta Man]

Matt,

Personally (not claiming to speak on behalf of anyone else) I think the resistance is against hybrids as the universal answer.

To me, this forum is often a 10-15 minute distraction inserted in a very busy day as sort of a mental 'smoke break' while working USAF issues as part of Operation Noble Eagle.

To me, that means I like to hear different ideas, i.e., will hydrogen work as a supplemental fuel, what someone has heard or experienced with fuel cells, electric cars, etc.

When it beomce visceral, I think, is when one or more people say "my idea or belief is better so you are inferior; shut up." That is the kind of stuff that makes the moderators reaching for the Alka-Seltzer or Tagamet.

So, as I mentinoed to you in another message, life is short, I'm glad to be in a country where we can all offer ideas and viewpoints, and I wish to participate as long as this is fun and/or someone can benefit (save money) through this forum.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Lexus LX, a giant SUV that gets 14 mpg shows sales that doubled in the first 5 months. How do you figure that?? </div></div>

I found this article from Forbes Magazine which ties up this loose end nicely.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how did the LX 570, in an age of $4-a-gallon gas, make it to the second spot on the most-wanted list?

Even though the premium SUV seems like an anomaly in a time when consumers are snapping up small cars, auto analysts are quick to note that there's still a demand for luxury vehicles and that the SUV market, while struggling, isn't dead. Furthermore, popular vehicles that undergo a redesign, like the Scion xD and the LX 570, often experience an initial surge in sales, says Tom Libby, senior director at J.D. Power and Associates.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">"In fact, Lexus is still working through a pre-sold list of loyal Lexus owners who wanted to get the premium SUV as soon as it hit the market,"</span></span> says Curt McAllister, a Toyota spokesman. "Its new styling and creature comforts appeal to loyal Lexus and premium SUV shoppers."

</div></div>

[Peter Gariepy]

How about this for opening up a can a worms...

---Hybrids are a great interim solution

---Hydrogen power is too

The long term solution is to simply drive less. The implications of that include living closer to family, work, school, church, and entertainment. Telecommuting will become more prevalent.

A side benefit will be that we'll walk and bike more, improving out health, and pollute less, which is better for all of us.

This ultimately will not be a choice but a necessity. The days of unlimited energy, at any price, will be gone in our kids lifetime.

Peter

P.S. Our hobby will continue but the days of driving or trailering our cars across the country will be much less practical. The upside will be our local clubs and events will benefit.

[Restorer32]

My only objection is to unsubstantiated hype re new technologies. The hybrids have proven themselves,no argument with that. I just find it amazing how usually intelligent people are willing to fall for any sort of snake oil such as on board hydrogen generators. An earlier post claimed that a Helium powered car was being tested. Pray tell how that would work? Helium doesn't burn. Compressed air vehicles? Do the math. My two big compressors can barely keep up with the air tools in the shop and you propose running a car on it? My other observation, and I'm not implying that this applies to anyone on this forum is that many Prius owners will switch just as soon as the newest style, gimmick or fad comes along. Drive less, keep your old vehicle in tune and running, only buy another vehicle when absolutely necessary and then buy the highest mileage technology that suits your needs. That's the way to save the environment and some cash. I remember reading in Popular Science about flywheel driven city buses. Whatever happened to them? Every few years there is all kinds of noise about steam cars. Where are they? We are restoring 2 early electrics and they are practical for short jaunts around town or maybe a short commute. Will the highly touted electrics soon to come on the market have AC? Heat? Heated seats? Inquiring minds want to know.

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My only objection is to unsubstantiated hype re new technologies. </div></div>

Jeff, you're speaking of the sucker born each day syndrome? I agree, anything would have to be tested for me to buy it. On the other hand I keep an open mind about anything new. I'm still waiting for those "Hanger 13" guys to let us use the technology they found on the ship in that desert. (Loved "Independance Day" )

I've been stuck with leading edge technology engines twice in the last 8 years. First, with a Cummins engine that had valve problems that Cummins said were nonexistent, but they still wanted to replace the head at my cost of course, even though it was still under warranty. Then I got stuck with the latest Caterpillar 550hp engine that has had 3 recalls, been in the shop numerous times, and still keeps me awake at night. All of this because government types are trying to tell engineers how to design pollution free engines, when the gov guys can't even balance a checkbook or pay their own bills on time.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the future, praying for it actually. Things have been way too dull in the automotive industry for too long now.

Wayne

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[Restorer32]

Had an employee years ago whose idea of alternative fuels was stolen lacquer thinner. He found out that a car will run very well on lacquer thinner, just not for very long.

[Rusty_OToole]

Neither hydrogen nor hybrids are an answer for anything.

Hydrogen is not a source of energy. The hydrogen has to be made out of something else, at a cost of energy. The most economical source is to make it out of natural gas, but it would be more efficient to just burn the natural gas in a gas engine.

Hybrids get lousy mileage. 48 MPG? There are dozens of non hybrid cars that do better than that.

You can start the list with my old Mercedes 190D, any VW diesel ever made, or if you like gas cars, my old Renault Le Car (aka Renault 5) and my buddy's 3 cylinder Pontiac Firefly convertible.

If they can't get a hybrid to do better than that they may as well lay down and quit.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids get lousy mileage. 48 MPG? There are dozens of non hybrid cars that do better than that.

You can start the list with my old Mercedes 190D, any VW diesel ever made, or if you like gas cars, my old Renault Le Car (aka Renault 5) and my buddy's 3 cylinder Pontiac Firefly convertible. </div></div>

48 mpg is a typical city mileage figure. Highway mileage is typically the same or only slightly better, unlike a conventional car.

Now, start a list of cars with 96+ cubic feet of interior space <span style="text-decoration: underline">&</span> under 10 sec. 0-60 mph times that can match that, or even come close. It'll be a short list. None of the cars you just listed match either category, let alone both.

[West Peterson]

Jeff

I think there's one more thing we Americans are going to have to accept to change, and that's the idea of 0-60 performance being so important.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had an employee years ago whose idea of alternative fuels was stolen lacquer thinner. He found out that a car will run very well on lacquer thinner, just not for very long. </div></div>

When I worked for the PA-DER we had an off-brand gas station chain in Pittsburgh (Red Head) in the 1980s that had been buying off-spec xylene/tolulene from paint thinner manufacuters for sale as high test gasoline. They'd been doing that for years prior to Federal/state regulations on xylene and tolulene as hazardous waste.

Since it was an established business practice, and apparently a legitmate use of the material, there was no reason to challenge it. So long as it met Red Head's requirements it was perfectly legal.

[MarkV]

So, Dave how much is full coverage (at a reputable company), and registration, tax, fees, etc. Alltogether over the life of the car? What about the comfort level? Repair cost, when the battery goes bad? Other repair costs? In comparison with a 20 yr. old car where parts can be had at any mechanic even in the middle of West Texas, etc.? How about work cost on a Prius? And where are these Prius' with 350,000?

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids get lousy mileage. 48 MPG? There are dozens of non hybrid cars that do better than that.

You can start the list with my old Mercedes 190D, any VW diesel ever made, or if you like gas cars, my old Renault Le Car (aka Renault 5) and my buddy's 3 cylinder Pontiac Firefly convertible. </div></div>

48 mpg is a typical city mileage figure. Highway mileage is typically the same or only slightly better, unlike a conventional car.

Now, start a list of cars with 96+ cubic feet of interior space <span style="text-decoration: underline">&</span> under 10 sec. 0-60 mph times that can match that, or even come close. It'll be a short list. None of the cars you just listed match either category, let alone both.</div></div>

I was all enthusiastic about hybrids too. Until they came to market and we found out how lame they are.

My point is, that it is possible to do just as well as a hybrid or better without all the monkey motion. I'm sure a conventional car designed for mileage can beat the hybrids better than a 15 to 50 year old design.

I predict we will see such cars in a few years. The reason they are not on the market now is that it takes several years to develop an all new model and the demand has only recently resurfaced.

[RocketDude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rusty_OToole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither hydrogen nor hybrids are an answer for anything.

Hydrogen is not a source of energy. The hydrogen has to be made out of something else, at a cost of energy. The most economical source is to make it out of natural gas, but it would be more efficient to just burn the natural gas in a gas engine. </div></div>

The hydrogen vehicles available today are on the road strictly as R&D vehicles. GM won't even sell their hydrogen vehicles, and will only lease them if you live close to a refueling station. It's costs over $100K to build one, and the fuel costs more to make than it sells for. The companies building the cars will tell you hydrogen is at least 10 years away.

I spent years working on propane and NG powered vehicles, as well as gas and diesel. I oversaw the installation on a NGV fueling station for my last employer. When we built that station, the AQMD gave us extra free money to install infrastructure to handle hydrogen fueling, when and if it every became viable. That was five years ago, and hydrogen is still many years away.

If they don't get hydrogen vehicles on the road, how are they going to improve them..?? Look where the automobile was in 1900. The horse was more practical, but they kept at it, and it wasn't to many decades before they made some pretty good cars. That is why hydrogen is on the road, so we can improve it and make it a viable alternative. It won't happen over night.

I applaud all of the different attempts to build a better mouse trap. I, as much as anyone, hope someone comes up with a cheap gas/diesel alternative. I would like nothing more than to watch a starving Saudi King trying to figure out how to grow tomatoes in the sand over his worthless oil reserves.

I'm willing to look at anything, but until someone proves me wrong, I'm not buying the perpetual motion water machine. I have been in the automotive industry for many decades, and have seen these claims made over and over again for longer than I have been around.

Look at the condition our American auto manufactures are in today, all in terrible financial shape, cutting out models, cutting costs, giving free interest rates. If one of those manufactures would build a working model of Stanley Meyer's miracle machine, that company would own the earth. Yet none give it a glance. Do they prefer bankruptcy over swallowing their pride and giving good ol' Stanley a tumble? Can you imagine getting 100 mpg in your Hummer?

I have to take the practical answer to that question, and believe that they aren't going to waste time and money on a pipe dream. The patents expires long ago, anyone with a machine shop could crank them out by the bucket load, at a very low cost. Where are they?

I hope I'm wrong. I want them to prove me wrong. My grocery bill will drop to nothing, as I will live out my life on a diet of crow, and smile with every bite......

[Reatta Man]

Restorer,

Cars WILL run well on stolen lacquer thinner.....all the way to prison....or the burn ward at the local hospital, whichever comes first.

Remember...your mileage will vary.

[Reatta Man]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donn2390</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I applaud all of the different attempts to build a better mouse trap. I, as much as anyone, hope someone comes up with a cheap gas/diesel alternative. I would like nothing more than to watch a starving Saudi King trying to figure out how to grow tomatoes in the sand over his worthless oil reserves.

</div></div>

Man, that gave me a laugh! Now, if the truth be told, those Saudi (or any of the other Middle East Arab nations) won't try to grow tomatoes unless they figure out a way to use tomatoes ** **** *******

THAT will be the really great part if we ever get off our collective butts and fix this import oil problem; they will loose at least 50% of their funding sources for Islamic terrorism....

Joe

[RocketDude]

Here is a new one on me. A city fleet near me just signed a contract to conver their fleet to Hythane fuel, a mixture of NG, and Hydrogen. Looks interesting.....

http://www.hythane.com/

I'm glad to see everyone expermenting, one of these days, we'll hit on something with great promice.

http://www.theautochannel.com/

[RocketDude]

Looks like my City link didn't post correctly, lets try again......

City of Barstow Takes the Lead on Alternative Fuels

City Signs Memorandum of Understanding With Ultra-Clean Fuel Provider Hythane

DENVER, April 20 -- Setting an example for other municipalities to follow, the City of Barstow, California has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Hythane Company, LLC stating its intention to explore the use of Hythane® (a fuel blend consisting of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas) as a vehicle fuel for the city's fleet. Vehicles using Hythane® fuel enjoy even greater reduction of emissions than their already low-emission natural gas counterparts.

"With our signed Memorandum of Understanding with the Hythane Company, the City of Barstow has propelled itself into the fast lane of the Hydrogen Highway," said Barstow Mayor Lawrence Dale. "With more than 60 million travelers per year driving through our city, we are proud to be an early adapter of this technology that provides a clean energy resource. These new technologies provided by businesses such as the Hythane Company will result in a better future for us all," added Dale.

Barstow is located within the Mojave Desert Air Quality Management District (MDAQMD), which has a regional plan to encourage all high desert cities to move forward with alternative fuel projects. Jeanette Hayhurst, who is leading the project for the City of Barstow, credits the MDAQMD for their recent success with alternative fuel projects. Commenting on the city's adoption of alternative fuels, Hayhurst remarked, "We think it is good for the environment and it is a good move for the economy. We want to be a leader in preserving the excellent balance between environment and economics."

In 1999, the MDAQMD started the ball rolling by providing the initial funding for Barstow's liquefied natural gas (LNG) and liquefied to compressed natural gas (LCNG) station. "The City of Barstow is going above and beyond," said Violette Roberts, spokesperson for the MDAQMD. "We helped fund a natural gas station and they are taking it a step further to a cleaner fuel (Hythane®). They have gone the extra step by paving the way to bring this ultra-clean 80/20 fuel to the region. We encourage other cities in the region to follow their lead."

The proposed Hythane® System will convert the existing natural gas fueling station in Barstow into an "Energy Station" offering three types of clean fuel (natural gas, hydrogen and Hythane®) and integrate Hythane® into the existing natural gas vehicle fleet. "Hythane® is a tried and true technology for today that bridges us into the future," commented Roger Marmaro, Hythane Company President and co-founder. Due to fuel costs and lack of infrastructure, it is currently not feasible to deploy pure hydrogen technology. However, the creators of Hythane® technology believe that their fuel is an integral step toward the goal of increasing the use of hydrogen as a vehicle fuel. "We are building a transitional infrastructure," said Marmaro. "Hythane® offers an attractive alternative and the best part is that it is ready today."

The Hythane Company plans to continue the deployment of the system with projects currently underway in Colorado, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, New Mexico, New York, New Jersey and internationally in China and India.

About The Hythane Company, LLC

Headquartered in Colorado, the Hythane Company, LLC, is working to bridge the gap between conventional fossil fuels and the clean future of a hydrogen economy. Vehicles that operate on Hythane®, a blend of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas, produce significantly lower emissions than those operating on diesel or natural gas. The company intends to deploy the Hythane® System, which completely integrates Hythane® technology into existing natural gas fueling stations and vehicles, in cities throughout the world. Hythane® can be used in all forms of vehicles and is especially suited for commuter buses, school buses, refuse trucks, and delivery trucks.

Hythane® is a patented fuel and the trademark is the property of Brehon Energy. The Hythane Company, LLC is grouped globally with two leading energy companies, Ireland-based Brehon Energy and Australian-based Eden Energy. Additional information about Hythane® is available at www.hythane.com.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why all the hybrid hate

Just curious to know about the motivations for running down (ha!) the hybrids... </div></div>

For me Matt, I don't hate them. I just don't like change, never did. Besides, I have 3 1/2 years for retirement and for me to take on a $28,000 loan to save some gas would be plain stupid. My Dodge & Buick run fine doing around 15,000 miles a year between the two. In the future if I have to, then maybe I'll buy one. But it won't be Japanese, ................I have my reasons for that!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, Dave how much is full coverage (at a reputable company), and registration, tax, fees, etc. Alltogether over the life of the car? What about the comfort level? Repair cost, when the battery goes bad? Other repair costs? In comparison with a 20 yr. old car where parts can be had at any mechanic even in the middle of West Texas, etc.? How about work cost on a Prius? And where are these Prius' with 350,000? </div></div>

All of those costs have been exactly the same as for any other car since I bought my Prius, except my insurance (Erie) went down about $200/yr. because it's a lower risk vehicle than my old Nissan truck. There's nothing unique about the car except for the hybrid portion of the drivetrain. Most of the parts on the car are not even unique to the Prius, and are shared with numerous other Toyota models. It even runs on regular gas, uses 5W30 (unlike my father's Civic Hybrid) and all the other same fluids as any other conventional car, and even the light bulbs/brake shoes/belts/etc. are nothing more than typical Toyota. Most common maintenance items are covered by the Haynes manual, which is no thicker or more complicated than any other. Finally if you live a long way from a Toyota dealer for repairs these days you must be in a huge minority.

As for comfort, the seats are a little (and I mean <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> a little) firm, and there is a bit more road noise than you'd hear in a Camry or Impala (but much less than I noticed in a 2007 Focus I recently rented!). The amenities in the car (power everything, climate control, cruise, heated mirrors, 7 disc cd/MP3 player, etc.) are about on par with a well loaded LeSabre or Chrysler 300. The first thing my son said when we got in the car (on a 90 degree day in May) was that the A/C was much stronger than our Nissan's.

I have noticed three irritants about driving the Prius. First it's murder on front tires (probably because of the huge torque of the electric motor). Second the traction control is brutal, especially in wet weather (probably for the same reason), and needs to be taken into account when pulling into traffic. Third it rarely uses the engine in reverse, so pulling out of parking spaces at the supermarket is a silent affair. This has suprised <span style="text-decoration: underline">many</span> people who've walked right in front of the car while moving.

All in all, it's just a car. There's been no more complications to driving it than for any other car I've had, except I've had to get used to not buying gas so often.

[MarkV]

Well, my boss came up with an excellent idea.....Since we sell wheat and other goods to the Opec members, why not just raise the price for our goods that we sell to them, until their lower the price on the oil they send us!

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, my boss came up with an excellent idea.....Since we sell wheat and other goods to the Opec members, why not just raise the price for our goods that we sell to them, until their lower the price on the oil they send us! </div></div>

OK, last time: no shortage of oil (yet). This is not a crude oil supply problem. They're still pumping oil that should cost around $70/barrel. The incredible decline of the dollar and the speculators on the commodities exchange are largely responsible for the rest. In many ways, we're doing it to ourselves. I'll wager that your retirement fund and/or pension plan is buying oil futures for you and driving up the costs. You're probably making money there, all things considered, but not enough to cover your increased gas costs.

The price of oil hasn't gone up 400% in the last 10 years--it has gone up 50%. On the other hand, our dollar has completely tanked. 4 years ago, the Euro was worth $0.86 dollars. Today it is worth ~$1.58. This 50% decline in the dollar's value is similar all over the world with mosts currencies that are widely exchanged. In fact, the Euro has become the baseline currency of choice, replacing the formerly rock-solid dollar. This decline is caused by immense deficit spending by our government, making the bonds and notes our government issues less valuable (supply vs. demand--lots of bonds, not a lot of buyers except China, which should concern all of us a great deal). This is inflation, but it's so subtle most Americans don't call it that. But when marketable goods get more expensive all of a sudden, what else can you call it?

If our dollar were still as strong as it was 2 years ago, gas would cost $3/gallon. Not that this is as good as $1.50 gas from 2000, but the prices we're seeing today are the result of a myriad of reasons, the least of which is a shortage of oil, not drilling in our own areas, or robber barons in the Middle East.

President Bush actually asked his Saudi buddies to increase production to ease the price of oil. Unfortunately, this would be acting against their own interests and they did not do it, of course. Increasing production would drive down the price of oil and they would make less money. Would you do it because some dope from another country asked you to? Of course not, especially since supply isn't the real reason for price increases.

We can keep looking for phantom enemies (which we're good at) for our energy woes. We can wait for the government to solve the problem (they can't, no matter what they say). Or we can work on solutions for ourselves individually. I know which one I'm doing.

You could also vote for elected officials who won't pour billions of your hard-earned tax dollars into holes in the sand and use them to fix our domestic problems instead (I wonder if such goverment officials even exist?). Our thirst for revenge is going to bankrupt our country. Let's look out for our own best interests for a change, eh?

[Guest John Chapman]

OK, with all the brouhaha with respect to hybrids, mileage, and alternative fuels, I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned Honda's little sleeper, the Civic GX, which uses CNG and even offers a home compressor that uses residential gas service for fueling.

Advertised MPG is 24/36 and CNG is selling commercially in So Cal for $2.60-2.90/gal. Using the home charger should cost a bit less. CNG has attractive features if the hybrid battery issue is of concern: Almost zero pollution. Very clean. Relatively cheap fuel (for now, anyway). Additional benefits are ability to use biologically and landfill produced methane. Long term ownership/maintenance expenses are significantly lower than gas powered vehicles owing to the very clean properties of CNG.

Points raised earlier about the changes we are facing are indicative of real-time experience (reduced traffic, moribund SUV sales, waiting lines for more efficient cars, etc.) This is really the tip of the iceberg. I see the US becoming much more like northern Europe in terms of lifestyle and transportation habits. We'll buy less, eat less, walk/bike more, demand effective public transportation, form more functional neighborhoods and shopping. I also think we'll see a return of home delivery for basic consumer items and services (e.g. milk, bakery, dry cleaning, groceries) just like in the 1930-1960s. This will help reduce short trips and multiple-car households.

In my opinion, the issue of 'hybrid hate' is more from being constantly lectured on it's virtues to the point of nausea. It is a good solution, and although a significant technical compromise in present form, may be the best current automotive approach, but it is not one for everyone. We're going to have a lot alternative solutions. The choice of one over the other should be one of solving personal needs and not an opportunity for motive system evangelism. The object is to reduce consumption.

It hurts now, but $4.00+/gallon gas will ultimately be a good thing for us.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

Matt,

Most excellent points. The free market is self-correcting. It stings when we're the correctee.

The flip side of this is that the value of our outstanding overseas debt is effectively reduced 50% and our products and services are unusually affordable to others.

A discussion of the future of the Euro is probably not approprate here beyond the context of making European spares more expensive. The social and economic fundamentals in the EU15 in no way support the current valuation of the Euro. It will correct, and it will be nasty.

Cheers,

JMC

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm disappointed in the hybrid and alternative energy vehicles. They have not lived up to the hype.

There may be a breakthrough coming in electric vehicles or hybrid or hydrogen. But I doubt it.

[Guest John Chapman]

Rusty,

So what were your expections?

As for breakthroughs, expect the next major improvement to be batteries and drive train layout. Specifically, the industry will figure out how to make lithium batteries economically and operationally feasable. We will also see the advent of plug in recharge hybrids. Hand in glove with that will be the advent of a 'true' hybrid drive. This will use the hydrocarbon fuel engine soley to drive a generator to charge the battery and power the traction motors that move the car and provide regenerative braking. No more power-sapping automatic transmission and drive train. It's been working for Electro Motive for 70 years.

This isn't your father's Oldsmobile...

They don't build 'em like that anymore.

Thank heavens!

Cheers,

JMC

[TG57Roadmaster]

With all due respect, what does this have to do with old cars?

<span style="font-style: italic">"Topic and posts do not fall within the purpose of the AACA Forum: Old Vehicles...PJH"</span>

was affixed to a removed topic on a downturn on traffic (mine) and another (not mine) on the state of the auto industry.

After nearly 1,000 posts, I just want to make sure my take on "policy" is clear.

TG

[Reatta Man]

TG,

Your take on policy is probably a lot like mine and other people who sent me a message after that post dealing with the state of the auto industry mysteriously disappeared as not being appropriate. Yeah, right.....

As for hydrogen generators and old cars, I have read one developer that says they can be ued on old cars with carburetors. If that is so, and an old car that gets 15 MPG on premium can suddenly get 22-24 on regular, I bet there would be a lot more of them being driven to car shows on Friday nights and to annual meetings half way across the country.

Hope THIS post doesn't get deleted. SNIP SNIP.....

[Guest rbl2]

Somehow I don't envision a hydrogen generator working on my 26 Chevy.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Bill,

Especially if you have your car in class judging...

TG

[Reatta Man]

Wow....didn't think of a '26! THAT would be funny!

But a Buick 455 that gets 22-24 MPG on the highway would be a thing of beauty!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hand in glove with that will be the advent of a 'true' hybrid drive. This will use the hydrocarbon fuel engine soley to drive a generator to charge the battery and power the traction motors that move the car and provide regenerative braking. </div></div>

In <span style="text-decoration: underline">every</span> country except the U.S. since 2004 the Prius has come with a switch on the dash to do exactly this (albeit using the same pair of traction motor/generators at the power split device, not individual motors at each wheel). It was left off of U.S. models over battery life concerns due to typically longer trip distances. I've read reports that say low speed mileage is improved to as much as 100 mpg, but at a great reduction in performance.

The switch can be installed in any Prius by popping out a blanking plate and hooking it up to the connector there. It's a factory piece available worldwide, and can be bought online easily. Doing so voids all warrantees, however.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect, what does this have to do with old cars? </div></div>

More than you might think.

The fact of the matter is that (sadly) most antique cars aren't driven all that much any more by any standard. Trailering cars is the norm for many owners today. There's an entire forum here devoted to just tow vehicles. If and when there's a better way to get these cars to show fields it'll be to everyone's benefit to have been prepared for it by threads such as this one.

Also as we have seen there are still those who cling to the hope of miracle devices that promise to make all cars, including our antiques, more economical to drive. Hopefully someday one of these will be of some benefit. However unitl that day comes it's to everyone's benefit to have open discussions on these things so that their limitations and/or potential (such as it may be) are explored. I'd have hated to see some of my friends blow money (and probably a few voltage regulators) trying to fizz enough hydrogen out of a jar of water to run their cars/meaningfully boost their fuel mileage.

I didn't see the traffic thread, but the "state of the auto industry" thread was really more of a comment on American society. It (and the autoextremist.com rant it linked) barely even mentioned cars at all.

[Dave@Moon]

The Honda Civic GX is an excellent car for local city commuting. It's limited range (200 miles typically, 300 miles absolute maximum) and long fill-up times using the home device limit it's practicality to some extent. Countering that is a maintenance schedule that is miniscule compared to a gasoline car, due to the cleaner fuel's lessened impact on deposits, etc.

Also you have to live in a home with natural gas. In my neighborhood the pipeline ends one block over.

[Rusty_OToole]

"Rusty,

So what were your expections?"

My expectation was that they would be half as good as the Greenies and Naderites claimed they would be. As usual, this was way too optomistic. As usual, the new wonder cure for the automobile was not as good as the cars we already have.

Don't believe me? In today's paper there was a story on JD Power's latest findings on the most efficient cars on the basis of running costs.

All the best picks were conventional economy cars. No hybrid even made the top ten.

In other words if they save any fuel at all which is questionable, they do so at such a high cost that it's pretty much a waste of resources.

[MarkV]

Natural Gas+ Stupid People+ new technology- Ralph Nader= BOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the best picks were conventional economy cars. No hybrid even made the top ten. </div></div>

There are no hybrid economy cars (yet).

When making charges against the economies of relative ownership, it's important to compare apples to apples. Comparing a Prius or Hybrid Civic to a Chevy Aveo is like saying that Wal Mart sells cheaper shirts than Macy's. Yeah, but what to do you get?

There are as many analyses on cost per mile as there are biases in those analyses (which means anyone who thinks I'm wrong has already tuned this discussion out). There are still putzes out there who insist that hybrids have higher depreciation, maintenance, and insurance costs despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary that exists today. These studies have to read with huge grains of salt.

And sometimes even the bias can't disguise the truth. For instance this study by <span style="font-style: italic">Edmunds</span>, whose entire pretense is that hybrids are a waste of money and whose assumptions on key points (like those above) aren't even mentioned, still lists the Hybrid Civic and Prius as among the top 10% in cheapest cars to drive per mile regardless of category.

While the <span style="font-style: italic">Edmund's</span> story curiously doesn't mention how it cam up with it's rankings, it does mention the ranking procedure used in this feature in <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Report's Auto Issue</span> April 2008. In that one (you have to get a copy of the magazine to read the cost analyses), the Prius was nearly the equal of all "small cars" despite being mid-sized, and ran away with cost analyses for mid-size family cars (at least 10% cheaper to own than any other mid-size car). One thing not mentioned by <span style="font-style: italic">Edmund's</span>, the <span style="font-style: italic">CR</span> analyses was based on $3.00/gal gas, not $4.00 like theirs.

Hybrid technology, when fully implemented as in the Prius and Civic, results in a 25%-50% fuel savings over identically sized/equipped conventional cars with similar performance. Regardless of what fuel is used, you'll be driving a hybrid in 10 years whether you like it or not (unless you like feeding $9.00 gasoline to a V6).