carbking

Gary - Zenith flow-tested a similar carburetor at 180 CFM on the 1 barrel and 2 barrel scale, converts to about 130 CFM on the 4 barrel scale. Jon.

Padgett - in the case of the 1947, the difference was only the carburetor, well, and the intake manifold. No other changes. I have mentioned this to a number of Plymouth enthusiasts that have then replaced the size 3 Ball & Ball carb with the size 2 W-1. ALL of them report both horsepower and economy gains. And if their Plymouth happens to be a 1947, why it is still "stock". It was a simple case of Plymouth recasting the 1939 intake (when Plymouth used the size 2 Ball & Ball carb) with a different casting number, and Carter supplying Plymouth with the W-1 574s instead of the D6G1 that was supplied for the rest of the year. Any Plymouth owner with the 218 can do the same thing. And I certainly don't disagree with the premise that the carburetor may have been used as a "rev limiter"; but in some cases, it was probably unintentional. I happen to have custody of the experimental files from both Carter and Stromberg which are exceptionally interesting about carburetors that were designed but never hit production status; but the most interesting file (to me) is the one Stromberg had on the feasibility of revising a carburetor to eliminate paying patent royalties (generally to Carter), or simply paying the royalties. Stromberg had a team of engineers charged with this task. You mentioned marketing. It was the 1970's before many original equipment carburetors were "rated" in CFM. The engineers ran the tests, and marketing supplied the numbers! Jon.

Carburetor design went through a tremendous "learning curve" in the 1930's. A few makes maintained the updraft carbs through the mid-30's, but most went to the downdraft design. During this time period, the "size" of the carburetor was often less important than the design quality. Do a search on posts I have made where the 1947 Plymouth (size 3 Ball & Ball) carburetor, ran about 5 MPH faster (81 -> 86 MPH) using the size 2 Carter W-1 during the strike of the plant building the Ball & Ball carbs. How much extra horsepower does it require to add 5 MPH to 81 MPH??? I don't know. But the increase was done using the SMALLER carburetor. Early in the 1930's, large single barrel carbs were used, but these were quickly replaced on most larger displacement engines with 2 barrel carbs. Jon.

Of course, if you guys get totally tired of trying to make the cork/foam floats work Jon.

The original cork floats were coated with orange shellac. Modern fuel, with or without ethanol, will cut orange shellac like a hot knife cuts butter. Have tried several coatings, including gas tank sealer, but have not found a single one that can be used successfully to re-coat the cork, once it has been in fuel. We provide float pontoons from the modern closed-cellular nitraphyll (spelling) material in our rebuilding kits to replace the cork. The manufacturer states that since the material is "closed cellular", that the float does not need to be coated. I have NOT found this to be correct, depending on the local fuel. We suggest that our customers coat the nitraphyll floats AFTER the old float arm is installed. Two materials that will work are: POR-15, and model airplane dope. Jon.

This link may be of interest: Automobile card main index Jon.

You could always loosen the retainer for the fuel bowl, fill it with gasoline, and then start the engine. After the engine has gone through a few heating/cooling cycles, the fuel level will be close to what it is now. Jon.

Lynn - with all due respect, I am not in the carburetor appraisal business. I attempted to convey that when I ignored a dollar value answer to your question in my first post. They are not rare, and there have been several listed, and a few sold on Ebay in the past few months. Once, they did command a premium to the "true believers" that gobbled up the hype (same folks that still believe in the tooth fairy ), but the internet has done a fair job of educating folks that 200 MPG out of a Chrysler slant six, or 80 MPG out of a Chrysler motor home is not going to happen in our universe. Since there have been several on Ebay, you can get a "market value" by looking at "completed" auctions, and "sold" auctions. We have sold several over the years, but only to those who wished to look at the unit; NEVER to anyone that wanted to use one. Our customers were restaurants in NASCAR country that decorated their walls with early NASCAR memorabilia. The Fish does have an interesting NASCAR history, and I still do not understand how Smokey got the Fish carburetor approved by NASCAR??? The Hudson engine used Carter WA-1 carburetors. The Fish had an internal size some 40 % greater than the WA-1. On tracks where the driver did not have to lift, the additional capacity gave the Fish an advantage (after several laps were completed, allowing the engine to get to speed ). My mentor in the carburetor business ran a 1000 mile comparison test on a 1961 (this is the year I remember) Ford station wagon with a 223. The Fish did deliver slightly better fuel economy than the standard carburetor, but Jim had to back into his driveway (it slanted away from the street), as with the Fish, the Ford had insufficient power IN REVERSE to back up the hill into the street from a stop! I have had some enthusiasts with Volkswagens tell me the Fish worked better on the early VW's fours than the factory Solex (but remember the headache vs the upset stomach tale). Jon.

Looks to be one of the original Fish M-1 carbs, set up for a flathead Ford V-8. As far as value is concerned, with the Fish, it is a matter of aesthetics, not of functionality. As a matter of aesthetics, nice to see one with the decal. Jon.

I can easily see both the buyer's and seller's prospective. I have personally done a better job with receipts on some of my vehicles than others. A a buyer, it never hurts to ask for receipts or pictures. But I would not expect the seller to show the receipts until I was ready to pay. His/her word that he/she had them would be enough initially. As a seller, I finally had enough of tire-kickers asking for pictures. Company policy is now: pictures are $50. each, refundable IF AND ONLY IF you purchase the item. Tell me what pictures you require, and give me your credit card number. This policy is a direct result of pictures of some extremely rare carburetors that we sent before initiating the policy showing up in wanted ads on various car forums, including this one. "Wanted - the carburetor in this picture"! The last time I tried to sell a car through Hemmings (before both the internet, and digital cameras) I received 195 requests for a complete set of pictures, mostly on postcards. Cancelled the ad, ignored the picture-collectors, and sold the car to a friend! As far as receipts for work we have done, I can print a duplicate receipt for any carburetor we have ever done FOR THE ORIGINAL CUSTOMER, OR A PROVED HEIR, ONLY! Personally, I feel the buyer should not be upset if there is no documentation; but the seller should not get upset if the buyer asks to have a certified, bonded mechanic perform certain tests in the presence of the seller. And of course, the price, and the desire of the buyer for the car (or part) will effect what level of documentation the buyer requires. Jon.

Chuck - message received. Check in todays mail. We seem to be on different pages. I have been sending PM's, and you have been posting here. Mailing/shipping address will be with the check. Once I get it so I can read the numbers, will post the Zenith family. Jon.

Always a good idea to consider all options; however, I think you will find that just buying the materials to do the wiring will exceed the cost of the harness, regardless of whether you consider labor or not. Plus, with the harness, everything should be the correct color code, and banded together in the proper places. Jon

The first Rochester single barrel carb was 1950 for Chevrolet. GM did suggest the use of the Rochester as a service replacement for older Carters, which was a bad idea for the car owners. In 1949, Chevrolet used the Carter W1 number 684s. Rochester did produce a two-barrel carburetor in 1949, the type AA 7001570 for the Oldsmobile 8. Jon

Carbking is awaiting your driving impressions when comparing a rotary carburetor to a plain tube carburetor! This is only the third original application of a rotary throttle carburetor of which I am aware, and I have not heard of any driving impressions of the other two. The other two were 1915 Austin, and 1915-16 Owen-Magnetic, both which used Master carbs. Owen-Magnetic switched to Zenith in 1917. Austin switched to Stromberg in 1916. Both the Stromberg and the Zenith were plain tube carburetors. The big name in rotary carbs has always been Winfield; but those that I know who have tried them have been disappointed in all conditions except wide open throttle (i.e. racing). Really interested to see a comparison by someone knowledgeable in carburetors. Preconceived ideas of things that occurred before our fathers were born, based on literature available, is far less useful than actual testing. Jon.

Try this link: Leak by throttle shaft Jon.

What limited information I have shows the type D used on a 1919 Moore. Jon.

The engine, when the ignition module was new, would often act like the distributor was at full advance when trying to do a hot start. Turn the key off, turn it back on, and would start normally. After 25,000~30,000 miles, the engine would start normally when hot, and once this happened, you knew within a few thousand miles, the ignition would die. Also had a 1980 Mustang that did NOT have the issue. Jon.

Our 1979 Ford Econoline shop truck rusted out the third time (thanks to Missouri poor drivers requiring salt and cinders in the winter) at 440,000 miles. The cylinder head was never removed from the engine, and the engine still ran strong. We were forced to change the ignition module 13 times in 440,000 miles. I carried TWO spares and tools with me at all times. Also still have a 1979 turbo Cobra Mustang which I special ordered. It has always been garaged, never seen snow, rained on once (I couldn't get home in time), and currently has about 55,000 miles. Currently on the third ignition module. Jon

OK - thanks, it is easy when the ambient is below 31 degrees F. Now lets get back to White automobiles. Jon

Thanks! Either title and a quarter, will get you a cup of coffee anywhere coffee is still a quarter a cup! Jon.

Interesting, but certainly did NOT apply to carburetors, else I wouldn't have had to invest well over $10k in taps and dies! 😠 Many were proprietary, and some were metric. As an example, Dodge Brothers (Stewart/Detroit Lubricator) 1914~1928 used 27/64 x 22 thread for the fuel valve seat. Jon.

John - I would agree with you to a point. Lots of different ideas were tried in the industry: some never made production for one reason or another, some made production, but probably should not have, and others withstood the test of time. I was not trying to imply that the original would not run (obviously it once did, or the company would have never sold a car). However, of the HUNDREDS of carburetor manufacturers, all of which had a "better mousetrap" (Marvel actually made a carburetor called the mousetrap), how many surviced post WWII? For automobiles and trucks: Ball & Ball (then made by Carter) Carter, Holley, Stromberg, Tillotson (trucks only), and Zenith. Zenith was in my group of the top three carburetor makers during the 'teens. One would think that if the design had merit, then some other company would have used it. Jon.

Ed - you are out of luck my doctor will not let me fly. However, when you get to the Zenith, this may help. This is a copy of the original Zenith calibraton card. Jon. Now, a bit of conjecture on my part: A number of carburetor companies produced carburetors specifically for a given make [examples would include the "Oakland" (Schebler), the "Dodge Brothers" (Stewart/Detroit Lubricator), the "Packard Air Valve" (Detroit Lubricator), and the "Cole" (Stromberg)]. In all of these except the Oakland and the Packard, the carburetor company and the customer were mentioned on the carburetor. Thus the "Cole" had markings such as "Stromberg carburetor manufactured for Cole". I am unaware of ANY AFTERMARKET carburetor to carry markings such as this, only original equipment carburetors. So in the case of the White, this carburetor is clearly aftermarket (released 16 October 1918 for a 1915 car). According to the Zenith records, Zenith DID make a carburetor specifically for White in 1922. There has been some chatter in the thread about the correct bowl cover which specifies White, but my GUESS would be that if one wished to build the Zenith exactly as it was built in 1918, it would have the standard Zenith bowl cover, rather than the one stating manufactured for White. But having the one stating White is eye candy. Jon.

I have also been enjoying this thread. Until someone posted a picture of one on these forums, in 60 years of playing with carburetors, I had never seen one produced by White, nor any documentation on one. If one looks at aftermarket documentation of the era, White seemed to have been quite secretive. After Ed started this thread, I was going to post the serial number range (I have a pretty good set of Branham manuals); but imagine my surprise when looking under "White" I found the sentence "White will not release serial number data". (For those unfamiliar with Branham, they sent questionaires to each car/truck company, and published year, model, serial number location, and serial number range for the insurance industry and law enforcement). In the "for what its worth" category, I think Ed is going to find the Zenith design superior to the White design, but only by testing will we ever know. Glad someone with Ed's knowledge and resources will be doing the comparison. Jon

Stromberg 7-70 was introduced in 1948 on the Buick 70 series. In mid 1948, there was a calibration change, now 7-70A. The carburetor again was recalibrated for the 1949 series 70, and the engineering status changed to "B" (7-70B). In 1950, 7-70B was no longer used, and a carburetor of a different style 7-89 was introduced. The carburetor type of the 7-70 was discontinued. The newer carb also had a revised calibration, as well as a design revision. Possibly, the correct carburetor as specified by Buick might have an effect on the test. EDIT: I just read thoroughly the test result.........59 main jets??? Standard were 51's. Going up 8 thousandths on the main jets indicates something was amiss somewhere. Guessing that the power circuit was not functional. Jon.