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Everything posted by carbking

  1. Viper - the carb pictured on your 1936 is obviously not original; it is a later model. Cannot tell exactly which one, as I am unable to read the identification number. It is later than 1938. The BBR series (opinion) graduated from horrible to fair with the 1939 models. Still nowhere close to the other Carter series, or the Stromberg. As to the article in Hemmings; the author interviewed me many years ago before writing the article. We spoke ONLY of the BB-1 updraft carbs, of which I am a big fan. As updraft carbs go, I place them behind only the Stromberg SF/SFM series, and the Zenith 63/263 series (both the Stromberg and Zenith came out about the same time as the BB-1). Letter grade = A. The author then added the BBR downdraft information to the article. Note the author placed our website/telephone number in his article. I told him at the time I would try to help with questions. As to why so many BBR's on on early Dodges, guessing there are two reasons: (1) Dodge trucks used the BBR series (2) Commercial rebuilders grouped the Plymouth BBR with the Dodge Truck BBR and also stated it could be used on the Dodge passenger. They also listed the Stromberg, but the Stromberg was ALWAYS more expensive, and people being what they are, cheaper won out. All of the 1933~1938 Plymouth BBR carbs were superseded in 1939 with the Carter 439s. These were requested from Carter by Plymouth and sold through Plymouth dealerships as factory replacement units. I have personally sold many of these to customers wishing to be as original as possible (Plymouth). These carbs did work, although never as well as either the Stromberg or the Carter W-1. For those that are happy with their BBR's - great. But for those who are less than happy, try one of the Strombergs, or the Chevrolet W-1's. Have been suggesting/selling the Chevrolet W-1's for years to MoPar folks, and to date, NO bad feedback from those who have tried one. In fact, quite the opposite from everyone who has offered feedback. One other thing, the identification service we offer has been modified from the terms in the article - PLEASE CALL BEFORE SENDING THE CARBURETOR! Jon.
  2. Selling Carter metal carburetor parts cabinets from the 1930's. ALL CABINETS ARE EMPTY! These cabinets are almost 100 years old, so there is some rust, some dirt, possibly some oil stains, and some have some minor dings. In other words, they are not new! These were available as a large cabinet (24 inches wide, by 12 inches deep), and a small cabinet (16 inches wide, 12 inches deep) SEE PICTURES BELOW. A basic cabinet was offered, and then additional drawers could be added. The drawers interlock, so the cabinet could be built higher as needed. In general, the large cabinets would be acquired by carburetor rebuilding shops, or Carter distributors; with the smaller cabinets being acquired by car dealers, garages, etc. Prices: A large base, with 1 tall drawer and 4 short drawers - $150. Additional tall drawers - $30. Additional short drawers - $20. A small tall drawer and 3 short drawers assembly - $60. Additional short drawers - $15. Have only a few of the large (24 inch cabinets). Have a truck load of the smaller cabinets. Don't really want to ship these things. Would prefer you visit the world headquarters of The Carburetor Shop in Eldon, Missouri (see Jefferson City for closest city of any size). Large cabinet Small cabinet Payment: will reluctantly accept paypal, but prefer VISA/MasterCard (less costly) Jon.
  3. I have not noticed a post stating the position of the idle mixture control screws in the carburetor. Would suggest you at least try the following: (1) Gently turn the each screw clockwise (in) until it bottoms, counting the exact number of turns (you can then return to this setting if the adjustment does not help). (2) Now turn each screw counterclockwise (out) 3/4 of a turn. (3) Start the engine and run at a fast idle. (4) Once the engine is at running temperature, adjust the idle RPM using the throttle positioner screw. 3/4 turn may not be quite enough, but I would not exceed one turn unless the engine is totally worn out and burning more oil than fuel. Theory: The idle screws in this carburetor are of the "short taper" variety. As a general rule, the short taper screws have an adjustment range of from 0 to 1 1/4 turns. In 1968, smog emission control became the law of the land. Due to more stringent idle requirements, most idle mixture screws were changed to a "long taper". The smaller delta when turning the screw allowed for much more precise idle control, thus emissions. The general range for the long taper screws is about 1 turn to 3 1/2 turns. Folks have have been accustomed to adjusting the newer carburetors get the older carburetors too rich; thus the rolling idle and fouled plugs. Generally, rich running is ignition, which you have been addressing; however, sometimes there are multiple issues. Jon.
  4. Either an original Carter AFB or an original Rochester 4GC is going to be easier to tune, and run significantly better than the Chevrolet carburetor you are currently using. As others have mentioned, you will see very little if any difference from the 4GC to the original AFB; but a huge difference from what you currently are running. Jon.
  5. Pete - I have long been of the opinion that when items come to market, there are two opposing views of the item: (1) the engineering view that the item should be of the highest quality, hang the cost (2) the accounting view that the item should cost at little as possible, hang the quality Given the above, the BBR was an "accountant's carburetor", while the W series were "engineer's carburetors". As far as your other comments about Carter, I have a TQ on my GTO, and two AFB's on my shop truck! Jon.
  6. There still seems to be confusion over the terminology updraft/downdraft. The term applies to the direction the fuel/air mix is moving when it exits the carburetor and enters the intake manifold. Thus an updraft carb hangs beneath the manifold, and the air/fuel mix enters the manifold going up. The downdraft carb sits on top of the manifold with the air/fuel mix going down (this, by the way is true of the 1949~1951 Lincoln/Mercury, and the 1949~1950 Oldsmobile that is often erroneously called a "backdraft"). And of course, there is also the sidedraft carburetor. Detroit Lubricator made both updraft and downdraft carburetors. The ones use by Cadillac were updraft. Downdrafts were used by Ford in 1932~1933. (Opinion) the Detroit Lubricator carbs provide excellent carburetion, for a time (maybe 15k~25k miles). When properly restored, they are again excellent carburetors for a time. The biggest issue with the Detroit Lubricator is generally the lack of understanding by the tuner/mechanic. The two major mechanical issues with the Detroit Lubricator is the wear that occurs in the groove of the aspirator valve and the associated wear on the "fingers" of the vanes; and the disintegration of the vane support box (zinc alloy "pot metal"). At the first rebuild, the vane box should be replaced with one milled from aluminum or brass. At each rebuild, the wear on the fingers should be evaluated, and if over a couple of thousands, either repaired using "metal-spray" or replaced. The groove in the aspirator valve should be inspected for "flats" on the upper edge of the groove where the fingers are inserted. The valve may be rotated at least a couple of times to change to a fresh position with no wear. Because of these issues, a number of enthusiasts have opted to place more modern carbs with greater longevity on vehicles which are driven. It was maybe 35 years ago when we were first approached to provide something other than the Detroits (or Johnsons). Our first thought was the Zenith 63 series, but the throttle arm was not useable on one side. We had some of these cast by a local retired high school shop teacher, who "inherited" the equipment when some government body determined sand casting was too dangerous for high school shop. When he passed, we lost any reasonably cost source for making these. We later suggested to a few individuals that new downdraft intakes were fabricated (by fabbing new intakes, the process was completely reversible) and modern downdraft carbs were used. We suggested the Carter type W-1 (leather accelerator pump) and at least a couple have used these successfully. Others opted for the Carter YF (diaphragm pumps, fine if daily driver or ethanol-free fuel is used). Jon.
  7. Other than fuel efficiency, power, driveability, and reliability...........................probably nothing. All joking aside, it was a "price leader". Of all the carburetors Carter ever made throughout history, the BBR-1 is the only one Carter felt needed a troubleshooting guide. BBR-1 troubleshooting guide I think I have posted this before, but: Fast forward to 1947. The plant making the BBR-1 carburetors for Carter went on strike. Carter had sufficient inventory to service all the BBR customers for the duration of the strike except Plymouth. This was an era when, while yes, there were lawsuits, people tried to solve problems without the help of attorneys. Carter offered to sell the more expensive Chevrolet W-1 to Plymouth at the BBR-1 price for the duration of the strike, the catch being that, the much more efficient W-1 (S.A.E. size 2) would not fit the 1947 Plymouth (S.A.E. size 3) intake manifold. Plymouth said no problem, the 1939 manifold was the size 2, they would just cast new manifolds (with a different part number) to accept the W-1. Carter did, and Plymouth did, and everyone was happy; until about 6 months after the strike. Plymouth started getting complaints where neighbors or close friends had bought strike and non-strike cars and started comparing notes. Seems the customers with the strike cars (W-1) ran about 5 MPH faster (yes Virginia, man has been racing since the beginning of time ) and got 25~35 percent BETTER fuel economy. The non-strike car buyers weren't happy! I never heard how Plymouth settled the complaints. Here is at least partial proof: 1947 Plymouth W-1 Jon.
  8. Be VERY happy that Dodge used the Stromberg rather than the Carter BBR-1 used by Plymouth! The 3-26B definitely identifies the carb as being original to a 1936 Dodge. (Opinion) the very best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Carter W-1 used by Chevrolet. The next best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Stromberg from the Dodge. Jon.
  9. By far the easiest way to tune the 9605s is to put it on a performance Chevrolet 350 with manual transmission. Jon
  10. Holley makes a GOOD fuel pressure regulator with a bypass. (Opinion) stay away from the dial type inexpensive inline regulators found at your FLAPS. You might try changing the float setting, but with 4~7 psi on that carb, I doubt it will help. Rather than bend the float, remove the float valve seat, and change the thickness of the float valve seat gasket to adjust the float. Jon.
  11. Chrysler used four different carbs in 1931 on the CM-6. Stromberg UR-2 (all year) Chrysler part number 320914 Schebler S (early production) Schebler model SX-451 Schebler T (late production) Schebler model TX-65 Schebler T (later production) Schebler model TX-66 All four used a center to center bolt pattern of 2 11/16 inches (S.A.E. size 2). (Opinion) on a scale of 1 (awful) to 10 (wonderful): Stromberg UR-2 (8) Schebler S (3) Schebler T (-3) Other carbs including the size 2 BB1 can be made to work. Jon.
  12. NEVER use a square>spread or spread>square adapter! And I hate using the word "never". Why? Think NASCAR restrictor plate (in this case, the adapter and manifold). An 800 CFM TQ is 200 primary / variable 600 secondary. A square manifold for a 750 is 375 primary / 375 secondary Thus, with the adapter, you have almost 200 primary and almost 375 secondary for a total of maybe 500~550 CFM. Plus, the air velocity is slowed by the extra corners. The spread-bore is a wonderful design for the street; but do it right! Jon.
  13. There used to be a rebuilder called San Diego Carburetor. Have not seen their work, but they did buy quite a few rebuilding kits from us. Generally, the folks that buy our major overhaul kits are interesting in doing a good job. Jon.
  14. Joe - in that respect, yes Jon
  15. As I am no longer rebuilding carburetors, I am offering for sale my inventory of original carburetor castings. These are castings (body parts) such as throttle bodies, bowls, bowl covers, air horns, choke housings, etc. These will be sold as ALL of the castings I have for a carburetor type. Thus, we would sell all Carter W-1 castings in one group, or all Stromberg AAV castings in one group. Most castings will be tagged with the original part number. NOT selling individual castings, group only. Going to start with Carter AFB stuff, as I know there are some Corvette castings in the group. Larger groups (ie Rochester Q-Jet) will be you pick-up only, will not ship. What group would anyone like to have more information. 573-392-7378 (9-12, 1-4 Mon-Tues central time) Jon.
  16. Rusty - the numbers mentioned in the first post were all aftermarket units. By the way, not talking out of both sides of my mouth With more than 150,000 carbs to choose from; I have a 4846sa (850 CFM) on my modified Pontiac 350. It runs like a scalded dog! My favorite four barrel for single four barrel applications. Jon.
  17. A question in another thread prompted this thread, as I wished to add information without hijacking the other thread. The Carter thermoquad may be unique in carburetor design in that it is the only carb that was originally designed as a race only carb, and then because of its success, detuned for street/O.E. use. The Carter TQ, a spread-bore four-barrel, was announced in 1969 (and I realize this is later than the focus of many who frequent these forums). The first production were: 4846s - 850 CFM 4847s - 1000 CFM At the time, the carburetor companies were experimenting with press-in jets; and the first production run of both numbers featured press-in jets. It was thought that the press-in jets would be easier to change in the field (racecars need to tune for track, altitude, and temperature, among other criteria). This turned out to be a horrible mistake, as it was virtually impossible to reuse jets. Carter listened to the complaints, and the second production run featured conventional screw-in jets. To differentiate the two runs, the numbers were changed to: 4846sa - 850 CFM 4847sa -1000 CFM When Carter made an engineering change, but not sufficiently significant to change the base number, an "engineering change status" was appended to the "s". The first change would be the letter "a", the second, the letter "b'", etc. In 1971, Chrysler, which had been using the Carter AVS (smog carburetor) in order to meet federal smog emission standards, tried a detuned version of the TQ, an 800 CFM, on the 340 engine only. The horrible performing AVS was retained on most other Chrysler engines. In 1972, Chrysler switched to the TQ for virtually all V-8 engine. I have personally thought of the TQ as the "perfect Quadrajet"; as the TQ retained the good points of the Q-Jet, redesigned the bad points of the Q-Jet, and added the thermoplastic bodies. Carter had tests done by different independent testing facilities, that found the temperature of the fuel in the TQ bowl, on average, was 28 degrees F. lower than the temperature of fuel in the bowls of all metal carburetors. Since the rule of thumb is that a reduction of 10 degrees F. fuel temperature is a 1 percent increase in both power and fuel economy; it is easy to see the advantage of the TQ. Everything else equal, the TQ was 3 percent better than other carburetors. Can you feel 3 percent on the street? Probably not, but the racers could measure the difference; and a 3 percent increase in fuel economy on a production vehicle helped. Other TQ numbers of general interest (replacing an O.E. carburetor) would be: 9800s (800 CFM, electric choke, GM linkage) 9801s (800 CFM, electric choke, GM linkage) 9810s - this is a modified 9800s with the addition of an EGR port and a plug. 9811s - this is a modified 9801s with the addition of an EGR port and a plug. When considering the CFM of these carburetors (or ANY four barrel) once should look at the CFM of the primary and secondary individually. Thus: 800 CFM = 200 primary, variable 600 secondary 850 CFM = 250 primary, variable 600 secondary 1000 CFM = approximately 325 primary, variable 675 secondary. Among enthusiasts that have used them, there is a definite love/hate opinion of the TQ. WHY? Often, the DIY type loves to rebuild his own carburetor, often refusing to look at the directions. So he/she removes 8 screws holding the airhorn (top casting) to the bowl (center casting). Now to prevent damage to the thermoplastic bowl, he/she tries shaking the carburetor to remove the castings. Nothing happens. He/she now taps the airhorn (or the bowl) with a plastic hammer. Nothing happens except the irritation level to the DIYer. After a few hard taps, a flat-bladed screwdriver is attempted to be inserted between the airhorn and the bowl; and the bowl is cracked, making the bowl trash. Now he/she takes the carburetor to a professional who removes the two screws hidden behind the choke butterfly and sells the customer a new bowl. So what does the enthusiast tell his/her friends??? "The bowl warped, and had to be replaced"! The second issue causing the love/hate opinion is the bowl seals. Not used on the race versions, the first production street/O.E. carburetors used two O-rings in the bottom of the bowl. Initial laboratory testing turned up no issues; but use on the street resulted in fuel leaks (similar to the Rochester bowl plugs). Again, Carter listened (as did Rochester), and the second production street/O.E. carbs were equipped with what Carter called "Quad X-Rings"; the cross-section being in the shape of the letter "x" whereas the cross-section of an O-Ring is the letter "O". The X-rings solved the issue UNTIL the first carburetor rebuild. When we started manufacturing rebuilding kits in 1975, the cost of the O-Rings was $ 0.90/1000 pieces. That's right 90 cents per 1000. The cost of the X-Rings in manufacturer quantities were $2.00 EACH. What do you think came in the FLAPS carburetor rebuilding kits? So far as I am aware, the X-Rings came in the Carter kits, the Chrysler kits made by Carter for Chrysler, and a few (including ours) of the specialty rebuilding kits. I have never considered the ignorance (which can be corrected) of the enthusiast to be a carburetor problem. Today, even more than 50 years ago, the TQ is a wonderful addition to many of the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's V-8 engines IF A SPREAD-BORE MANIFOLD IS AVAILABLE, NEVER THROUGH A SPREAD-BORE TO SQUARE-BORE ADAPTER. WHY so much better today? The plastic bowl REALLY helps minimize hot soak due to today's fuels. For migration to a different engine, the aforementioned numbers may be used, and Chrysler O.E. carburetors through the 1974 model year may be used. I do NOT recommend trying to use the 1975 and newer TQ's unless you are a professional with a well-stocked machine shop. WHY? The federal government was on the carburetor companies to make carburetors as difficult to modify as possible (RE: sealed idle needles in many 1978 and newer carburetors of all makes). The government knew that enthusiasts could change gasoline jets, so the modification on the 1975 and newer TQ's was to install large AIR jets. Thus to recalibrate for migration use, the enthusiast needs to carefully remove the pressed-in air jets, and fabricate smaller air jets to replace them (no Virginia, they are not available, or at least I am unaware of any). The 1975 and newer carbs are useful to the Chrysler restorer, and as a source of parts, other than the bowl assembly. EDIT: one additional caviat. The 1000 CFM carburetors were produced with NO IDLE BOOSTER! Thus, while there are idle mixture screws, the signal to the idle circuit is very weak (remember - this is a race carburetor!). Idle adjustment on the street ranges from virtually impossible to completely impossible. Those that I know of that have successfully used these on the street has standard (manual) transmissions and generally could acquire an idle of 1400~1500 RPM. Part of the difference in CFM from the 850 to the 1000 was the removal of the idle booster. If there are questions, please post. Jon.
  18. One additional comment about carburetor finishes. Maybe 25 years ago, we were approached by an owner of one of the "Classics" to restore his carburetor for an upcoming prestigeous auto show, one that was invitation only. Cost was absolutely no object. The carbuetor was a Stromberg. I pulled all the prints and did a meticulous restoration. The day after the show, I got a call from an extremely irate customer. The chief judge, who happened to be the leading authority on this make of car (his father and uncle had worked at the factory, and another relative was a dealer) docked my customer a point because I had painted the automatic choke housing. That point was enough to drop him from first to third. I offered to send him a copy of the drawing, which I did. About a month later, I got a call that, after showing the judge the original drawing, the judge allowed as maybe it was possible that he could be wrong; but by then it was too late to change the order of finish. He was invited to return next year. The point being: IF ONE IS PLANNING TO SHOW THE CAR IN A JUDGED COMPETITION, THE CRITERIA BEING USED BY THE JUDGING AUTHORITY IS ALWAYS RIGHT, EVEN IF IT IS INCORRECT! So if someone is planning to show their car, disregard my comments concerning carburetor finish, and use what it being accepted. Jon.
  19. Carter produced over 800 "General Bulletins", and I am too lazy to look for the one on the body paint. If I happen to see it in future research (unless I forget ), I will post it. In the "for what its worth category", Carter stated that both the outside AND INSIDE of the wrought iron castings were to be painted. Stromberg did NOT paint the cast iron items for Buick, but did for Packard. Carter painted all castings black on the V-16 Cadillac carbs. Both Carter and Stromberg chromated the zinc alloy bodies. They were not left natural. The chromate treatment was a treatment to delay oxidation of the metal. I am caretaker for the original drawings for both companies. What Buick did with the carburetors after they left the Carter and Stromberg factories, I do not know. Jon.
  20. Peter - try this link to my website: Carburetor finishes The lower damper assembly is not part of the carburetor. I do not know the finish. Jon.
  21. Much as I like the Carter TQ, this is not an option I would recommend for street use. When selecting a carburetor, it is a good idea to ALWAYS (and I don't use that word often) select a carburetor of the same style (spread-bore or square-bore) as the manifold. As far as the 1000 CFM TQ is concerned, it was designed STRICTLY FOR RACING!!!!! As such, it has a lousy idle circuit, as the idle booster was removed from the venturii area in order to acquire the extra CFM. Above a certain RPM (maybe 2500 or so) it would run well (but no better than an 800 or 850 until the engine was screaming), but idle for a street vehicle is almost non-existant (most that have one are happy with a 1400~1500 RPM idle). And the 1000 CFM carbs are EXPENSIVE! The 850 CFM (expensive) or the 800 CFM (much less expensive) would be a far better choice for anything other than a trailered professional racecar. It has been years since I did much with these, but had several customers who believed the hype that Buick engines love CFM and bought (elsewhere) the 1000 carb, and called us for help to make them work. For the folks with street cars, we tried to convince them that the 800 or 850 would be better. The ones that listened that called us back, ALL had better 0-60 times with the 800 or the 850 than with the 1000, plus a much more tractable vehicle. The 850 is 250 primary and a variable 600 secondary. The original AFB that has been discussed in this thread is 250 primary and a variable 375 secondary. Thus performance with the 850 on the primary side (once dialed to the Buick engine characteristics) should perform about 3 percent (because of the cooler fuel in the thermoplastic bowl) better than the original Carter. Above 6250 RPM, the 850 would run somewhat better than the original. To see any appreciable improvement from the use of the 1000, the engine needs to be running at more than 8000 RPM. However, should anyone wish to ignore the comments in this post, I still have some 1000 CFM carbs (Carter part number 4847) for sale EDIT: the above RPM figures are for a 401 running tube headers through mufflers. A racecar running open exhaust would have slightly lower RPM thresholds, a street engine with normal exhaust and mufflers would need higher RPM's. Jon.
  22. Carter cast iron castings were painted black with Carter's "special carburetor body paint". Probably has been obsolete for at least 60 years, but is approximately the appearance of 60 percent gloss black. This would include the cast iron top on the rear carb (if Carter). Jon.
  23. Exactly! And the internet just compounds the errors more quickly!
  24. Seems like an extremely large set of books when (if ) you finish. Being trained as an engineer, I was never overly interested in the economics. As a general rule, engineers wish to make the very best quality produce, hang the cost. The accountants wish to make the very cheapest product, hang the quality. Management has to be the go-between. Other than a focus on carburetor history, I also focus on Oakland and Pontiac history, and have a huge library of original Oakland/Pontiac literature (roughly 11000 original pieces). You can study sales brochures, service manuals, parts manuals, etc.; but the real scoop on innovations for Pontiac can be found in the Engineering Data booklets. These were a typewritten booklet prepared by the Engineering Department each year, and submitted to the CEO, the Board of Directors, etc. According to a departed friend who was once Chief Engineer, 6 copies were prepared each year. When Pontiac was still alive, even the Pontiac Engineering Department, due to space purges, did not have a complete set. These surface very rarely, and when they do, they bring a BUNCH of money. From memory, in some 55 years of collecting, I have acquired 5. If you really are interested in doing a comprehensive study, this is the type of literature that is invaluable. My guess for an overall industry resource would be reading the S.A.E. papers. Jon.
  25. If you have the original Carter type RJH-08, then this carburetor has an inverse idle circuit. TURNING THE IDLE SCREW IN MAKES IT RICHER! If too rich at idle, try turning the idle mixture screw out. Jon.