carbking

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Posts posted by carbking


  1. "Notsoeasyouts"  often work well in steel; VIRTUALLY NEVER IN BRASS!

     

    A carburetor is a perfect example of a Galvanic cell (two dissimilar metals in the presence of a liquid). In this case one has aluminum, brass, and gasoline. Ion flow takes place and beads of corrosion build up in the threads, making the jets difficult to remove.

     

    There is a method that always works, once perfected; BUT IT SHOULD BE PERFECTED ON A SERIES OF JUNK CARBURETORS!

     

    Bill of materials:

     

    (1) Set of left-handed drill bits THAT YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY DULLED

    (2) Reversible drill

    (3) Empty 5-gallon bucket

    (4) Piece of 1-inch foam rubber (for the bottom of the bucket)

    (5) Acetylene torch with jewelers tip

     

    Procedure:

     

    (1) Fill the bucket approximately 3/4 full with water

    (2) Light the torch, and adjust to a pencil flame

    (3) Rotate the point of the flame on the periphery of the jet, always moving in a circle, always on the brass.

    (4) When the color of the flame changes from blue to yellow-green, drop the casting in the bucket of water.

    (5) Repeat steps 3 and 4

    (6) Spray liberally with your favorite brand of penetrating oil.

    (7) Using the left-handed drill bit of the appropriate size and the reversible drill, gouge the jet, and it will spin out.

     

    It should be noted here that using this procedure with a stubborn jet to begin with, will never allow the jet to lose its slot. Not that I am advocating reusing jets, but a screwdriver is easier than the drill.

     

    AGAIN, PERFECT THIS PROCEDURE ON CARBS THAT YOU CAN THROW AWAY!

     

    Why it works:

     

    The heat will burn the oxygen from the corrosion molecules thereby reducing the physical space they occupy in the threads. This allows a good penetrating oil to lubricate the threads, and the left-handed turning action will spin out the jet.

     

    And yes, I HAVE removed literally hundreds of jets using this method.

     

    CAVIAT TO THOSE THAT APPLY ANYTHING TO ANYTHING: This is not meant as a generic fix, rather a fix in working with the Carter AFB castings. The melting temperature of aluminum (the base metal of the Carter AFB casting) is maybe twice the melting temperature of zinc alloy. Thus, if one tries this method on a zinc-alloy body, one must be extremely careful. The method will still work, but there is zero margin for error (i.e. the flame slipping from the jet onto the casting).

     

    EDIT: For those that think maybe the notsoeasyout would work instead of the drill, consider: the force to "grab" the jet applied by the notsoeasyout is virtually sideways, thus pushing the soft brass against the side of the casting, and creating additional friction, whereas the force exerted by the drill is virtually in the same plane as the drill, not creating additional friction. But try it if you will. I was never successful, but it might work for others.

     

    Jon.

    • Thanks 2

  2. The power valve and the economizer valve are two different names for an enrichment valve.

     

    Some call it a power valve, as it is opened generally under wide open throttle to enrich the mixture for power.

     

    Some call it an economizer valve, as it is normally closed, allowing smaller main jets to deliver better economy at "cruise".

     

    EDIT: found this thread via search, and read the last post first. Assuming you have the original Holley carb, the economizer valve is probably not the culprit. The Holley design has the outlet for the economizer valve dumping directly into the throttle area. If it fails, generally will be so much extra fuel the engine will not run. Not saying it couldn't be the valve, but Ford ignition is much more likely to be the issue.

     

    Jon.


  3. Without checking the prints, would guess that the shafts are unique to the dual quad carbs. Repeat, this is a guess.

     

    The throttle plates often are not unique.

     

    There is generally no reason to replace the shafts other than the efforts of Dr. Goodpliers (you know, the evil twin of Mr. Goodwrench). The methods described earlier in this thread work, and work well.

     

    New throttle shafts can be machined by ANY competent machine shop that is interested in doing the work. A skilled enthusiast can do the work provided the enthusiast has a lathe and milling machine. One first needs to index the "double D" on the end of the shafts with the slot. Now one can first cut the slot using a milling machine and a "slitting saw". Once this has been done,  the holes for the screws may be cut and threaded, and the double D on one or both ends of the shaft cut. Now the original throttle arm may be installed on the correct side sliding over the machined double D, and peening to retain.

     

    New throttle plates are more difficult, but may be done by a good machine shop. The first step is to take a piece of round metal bar, and turn it to the diameter of the throttle bore. Now the tricky part is to cut the shaft into two shafts at an angle the same as the closing angle of the throttle plates (Carter generally stamped this angle on the plates). Once the metal bar has been cut and both bars trued, two holes should be drilled into the two pieces of bar representing the position of the holes in the throttle plates. The holes in one of the shafts should be threaded, and studs installed. The holes in the other end should be just sufficiently large to slip over the studs. Now, measure the thickness of the existing throttle plates, and acquire flat metal of the same type (brass, aluminum, etc.) and thickness. Cut "blanks" which are larger than the largest diameter of the plates. Drill holes to represent the screw holes in each of the blanks. Slide the blanks over the studs in the end of the shaft with studs, slide on the other end, and secure with nuts on the studs. Place the shaft with studs into a four-jaw chuck on your lathe, and CENTER. Now, turn down the portion of the "blanks" to where the blanks are smooth with the shafts. Remove the nuts, the end cap shaft, and FINISHED throttle plates. Each will have the correct closing angle.

     

    Jon.

    • Like 2

  4. On 4/13/2019 at 11:57 AM, alsfarms said:

    What are the differences between a BB-1 that is built to work with a fuel pump and one that is built to run on gravity?  Is it easy to convert a later carb. that should have a fuel pump to run on a gravity system?

    Al

     

    Maybe a bit of clarification is necessary here.

     

    The universal BB-1's were designed to be used either with pressure or with gravity-feed, depending on the fuel orifice. And they were universally calibrated, with the adjustable main jet for tweaking the adjustment.

     

    HOWEVER:

     

    Carbs that were designed for use on a SPECIFIC application will not have the same jetting as the universals. So just buying a carb that was designed for a fuel pump, and then changing the fuel orifice is absolutely no guarantee that the carb will be calibrated for the one's specific application. The table I published in the article listed ALL of the applications for which Carter recommended the switch. Other than these carbs on these applications, the user becomes his/her own engineer. And buying a carb with no tag is worse than buying a pig in a poke. I need to dig up the quotation about purchases from economist John Ruskin and post it again. ;)

     

    Jon. 

     


  5. 6 hours ago, Lonnie Franklin said:

    A local family donated a 1925 Dodge Business coupe to our high school and I along with several students have begun working on it. We have solved the fuel starvation problem with the vacuum tank but have run into another problem. The Dodge starts and runs fine even when the engine is up to temperature, but if the engine is shut off or stalled it will not start until it cools down again. We do have fuel and spark but the engine will not even begin to start, we have changed the coil with no success. We are going to adjust the valves on Monday. Any ideas?

     

    Happy to see enthusiasts in this age group!

     

    When trying to start the engine when hot (maybe 5 minutes to 45 minutes after shutdown), do NOT open the throttle. Begin to crank the engine, and while cranking after maybe 5 seconds, open the throttle maybe 1/4 of the distance. The engine should start but run rough for 30 seconds to a minute; then it should run fine.

     

    Please report back on the results.

     

    Jon.


  6. Stromberg used to offer different orifice size fuel valve seats in the 'teens, based on the "fuel head", or how far the carburetor fuel inlet was below the fuel source FOR THE SAME CARBURETOR.

     

    On a typical S.A.E. size 2 or size 3 brass carb; Stromberg would generally recommend a 0.140 orifice for an 8 inch fuel head, and a 0.111 orifice for a 14 inch fuel head.

     

    "Listening" (with books, as they have all departed us) to the original engineers tends to make many things in life work better.

     

    Jon.


  7. Should you be interested in how to remove the twisted screws:

     

    If one has a milling machine with a tilt table:

     

    Set the table to the angle of the throttle plates with twisted screws

     

    If one has a GOOD drill press with a vise, one will need to fabricate a fixture to hold the throttle body at the angle of the throttle plates with the twisted screws.

     

    The idea with both of the above is to locate the spinning center perpendicular to the screw, so that it may be drilled without damaging the threads.

     

    Now, using a diamond tipped, pointed burr, center a "starter hole" in the center of one of the screws.

    Drill a small hole through the screw. If you have the proper set-up, you will not touch the shaft.

    Now, DULL a bit slightly larger than the one used to drill the through hole

    Remove the casting from the vise, and heat the screw as in my post above this one

    Reinstall the casting in the vise, and using the dull bit, gently jam the dull bit into the screw. Once it catches, it will spin the screw out the back of the shaft, saving the thread in the shaft, and the throttle plates.

    Repeat for the rest of the screws.

     

    Penetrating oil rarely is going to free a shaft that is frozen, you must use heat (see above post). PATIENCE IS ONE'S FRIEND!

    If the shaft looks like it is true and undamaged other than frozen, after heating, reinstall the throttle plates before attempting to turn the shaft. The will help support the center of the shaft, and minimize the danger of the shaft twisting.

     

    Opinion - unless a very rare and valuable carburetor, at the point where one has 4 twisted screws and a bent shaft, one might consider just starting with a different core.

     

    Alternately, if common parts but one wishes to retain the casting because of a correct date code, cut out the shaft and plates, and then replace with parts which often may be acquired.

     

    Jon.

     

    • Like 2

  8. This post is kind of like the old cliche of closing the barn door AFTER the horse escaped, however:

     

    To loosen the secondary shaft, either an ultrasonic cleaner or heat (use an electric toaster oven).

     

    Virtually ALL throttle valves are staked on the back side. If you must remove the shaft they MUST be ground off (Dremel) or filed off. If this step is not done, they will twist off.All of them.

     

    After removing the remains of the screw on the back side, using a torch with a pencil flame, heat the screw. If steel, until red. If brass, until the flame turns yellowish-green. Be careful that you stay off of the valve with the flame of the torch. Allow to cool, and all screws will come out.

     

    What you now have is restorable, however, unless this is a very rare carb (Super Duty Pontiac, NASCAR Chevrolet, etc.), the cost to fix it now exceeds its value.

     

    Try the above on your next carburetor that is rough.

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

  9. 3 hours ago, MarkB2PW said:

     

    It is a Rochester AA.  I bought a kit and rebuilt it.  I sent the economizer valve back to a shop in Florida to replace the diaphragm.

    I would like to try a different carburetor to see if the performance changes.  What model Carter is that?  And where is the best place fro me to get one?  Or is there a modern alternative that would work better?  I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

    I like the comment from Frank, "What's that old saying? 90% of carburetor troubles are ignition...." .  I'm not sure the problem is the carburetor, but would like to eliminate it from the equation. 

    After I changed to 12v it did run better.

    I also replaced the fuel pump with a rebuilt 2 weeks ago, but, when it died on Saturday it felt like it was running out of gas.  I could get it to start and run by revving it, but it would not stay running. 

     

     

    "  I'm not sure the problem is the carburetor, but would like to eliminate it from the equation. "

     

    The carburetor is the very LAST item to eliminate from the equation!

     

    ONE TEST IS WORTH 1000 OPINIONS!

     

    In order:

     

    (1) compression test WHY because if the compression is bad working on ignition or carburetion is a waste of time and money

    (2) ignition test WHY because if the ignition is faulty, nothing you do to the fuel system will help

    (3) fuel delivery system test WHY because if there is no fuel in the carburetor, the carburetor doesn't work

    (4) carburetion test

     

    In (2) above, if points and condenser have been replaced with some electronic gismo, restore the points and condenser for the test. The electronics simply adds another degree of unknown. If you are in love with electronics, and there is no change, by all means put it back. If you do have an electronic gismo for the distributor, and have not upgraded to any alternator - DO SO!

     

    As to the Rochester AA:

     

    Rochester began producing "carburetors" in 1949 with the AA used only by Oldsmobile. This carburetor was continued with a minor calibration change in 1950, and then thankfully discontinued. In 1951, Rochester produced the type BB which lasted, again thankfully, for one year only; and Rochester quit trying to make two-barrel carbs  for a time. In 1955, Rochester tried another two-barrel, the Power-Jet. Again, one year only. In 1956, Rochester began production of the 2G series (they had been making the 4G four-barrel), which turned out (opinion) to be one of the finest 2-barrel carbs ever made. Variants of the 2G were still being used by new cars in the 1980's.

     

    As to other options:

     

    In 1949 and 1950, Oldsmobile also used a Carter type WGD identification 714s. In 1950, the 714s was tweaked into the 849s. Both are conventional Carter WGD carbs, but with the laid-over airhorn necessary for the 1949 and 1950 Olds. Both Carters required an oval adapter to adapt to the Rochester air cleaner.

     

    Personal and professional opinion - if I owned a 1949 or 1950 Oldsmobile driver OR showcar, it would have the Carter correct for the year.

     

    Should you decide to made the switch, there is a grumpy old hillbilly in Missouri that can probably supply either of the Carters.

     

    EDIT: I just reread the thread, and see you have electronic gismos plus a 12-volt conversion. I am pretty sure that grumpy old hillbilly just sold the last of his Carters. Good luck.

     

    Jon.

     


  10. Instead of gas down the carburetor, try filling the carburetor bowl with gasoline though the bowl vent. Very possible the fuel pump has not picked up and the carb is dry.

     

    And as Fleck suggested, if it won't fire with hot spark and a carburetor full of fresh gas, then check the timing.

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

  11. On 4/7/2019 at 12:36 AM, Grimy said:

    Mark, the carb on that Olds is not side draft--the air horn is at 90 degrees to facilitate use of an oil bath air cleaner, just like Packard 12s.  You may need to put a kit in yours, but mine of years ago (in a 1949 98) was very reliable and trouble-free.

     

    The carburetor, as stated by grimy, is not a side-draft. "Draft" in a carburetor designation refers to the direction the air/fuel is going when it leaves the carburetor. A side-draft carb would have the air/fuel moving relatively horizontally when leaving the carburetor. Updraft, downdraft, and sidedraft are the three common types; however, I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel didn't have one that went anti-goglin (hillybillyese  for oblique) just to foul up the normal convention. ;)

     

    The AA Rochester used on the 1949 and 1950 Olds has two diaphragms; one is the accelerator pump, the other the actuating valve for the power/economizer valve. We spent a small fortune some 35 years ago reproducing the accelerator pump to put in kits (still have not retrieved that investment), but could not economically (even as economically as the pump) do the casting and diaphragm for the actuating valve. However, one may carefully disassembly this piece and install a new diaphragm. It isn't plug and play, it requires machine work but it may be done.

     

    A much better (opinion) option is to replace the AA with the optional Carter that was used in 1949 and 1950. The major issue with the Carter is the aircleaner required an adapter as the air intake on the Carter is oval. Much better (opinion) design on the Carter, and it uses readily available parts, with a leather (impervious to ethanol) accelerator pump.

     

     

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1

  12. The first time I saw the drip loop was on a marine type YH (sidedraft) Carter. I have since seen a few on updraft Carter marine use carbs (the amount of marine carbs I have done is quite small in comparison to those for cars and trucks). Leaks on closed-bilge marine applications are frowned on. MANY side-draft carbs were used on marine application; and Chrysler, Gray, and Owens all also used the BB updraft into the late 1960's.

     

    I have always tried to look at methods engineers use to solve problems. This seemed to be a good solution, so I have been recommending this "fix" to automobile enthusiasts for probably 30~35 years.

     

    It works.

     

    Basically one forms a small loop from copper tubing, with one end connecting to the threaded carburetor drain (this is normally 1/8 pipe thread), and the other end connected to a vacuum source. When the engine is shut down, the small amount of leakage accumulates in the drip tube, and is pulled into the engine at the next starting of the engine. Yes, there is a MINOR vacuum leak; however the drain hole is so small as to make this negligible.

     

    Obviously, this thing has a small volume, and will not compensate for a badly leaking carb; but for correcting the shut off leak caused by the politically correct fuel, it works!

     

    EDIT: I learned a long time ago that our government, when passing legislation, often violates the "law of unintended consequences". Our current fuel fits into this category. It is for us do devise work-arounds, as we have a insufficient number of voices to be heeded. This is one such work-around.

     

    Jon.

    • Like 2

  13. 2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

    Ben, you won't be sorry. While the system I have does use a ECM, no way would I go back to a carb.  Today's gas formulations REQUIRE FI. 

     You may not need to go for the fancy distributor. I had mine modified by a gentleman in OR.  Cost was about $85, including return postage.  Mount the 7 pin GM module where you like.  I am not finicky for looks, so mounted it on the cowl. 

     

     I will be watching.

     

      Ben 

     

    Ben - will not try to talk you back into a carburetor, BUT TODAYS GAS FORMULATIONS REQUIRE FI IS A BIT STIFF.

     

    My shop truck is a dual four barrel 390 450 HP in a F-100. Fuel economy at 70 MPH is 22 MPG. The carbs have been untouched on the engine for 18 years. How does your efi compare?

     

    I will agree that newer efi systems have improved greatly, and almost approach the efficiency of a well-calibrated carburetor (not yet convinced of their reliability), but REQUIRED???

     

    I MIGHT consider efi if I lived in a state such as Colorado, where I drove at altitudes varying from 3500 to 12000 feet daily, but other than that, REQUIRED???

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1

  14. Paul - thanks for posting that link. I was somewhat surprised by the price, but since I haven't personally purchased one in over 20 years, my surprise might be related to the time-lapse.

     

    For years, I have been suggesting these to customers with leaky updraft carburetors. Have always suggested they try a motor home supply house, as many motor homes were equipped as dual fuel (gasoline/propane). One of these valves is necessary in a dual fuel environment.

     

    Jon.


  15. 7 hours ago, Summershandy said:

    Thanks for your thoughts guys. I am very aware of the consequences of sealant like silicone when it comes to a carb. This is why I needed some feedback like this. Think I'm staying away from sealants. Would a thin film of vaseline on the gasket side that contacts the lightly pitted heat shield be of any help? Another observation was the old gasket was saturated. It is after all, 65 years old. I think I read it finally does get wet over time. The thicker gasket was also held together with a staple at each end with it's original GM part number stamped in. 

    At what temperature does vaseline melt, and does your exhaust exceed that temperature?????

     

    Jon.


  16. The pressure that may be used with a carburetor is dependent on: (A) the buoyancy of the float, (B) the mechanical advantage of the float (due to placement of float pin, and type of hinge), and (C) the orifice size of the fuel valve seat.

     

    Generally speaking on pre-1932 carburetors, the mechanical advantage/buoyancy is such that 3/4 to maybe a maximum of 2 psi (if the fuel valve seat is modified) is a reasonable range.

     

    Some of the better carbs (in alphabet order) such as the Carter BB-1, the Stromberg SF and SFM series, and the Zenith 63 and 263 series from 1932 and newer can get to MAYBE 4 1/2 psi with a modified fuel valve seat.

     

    BE CAREFUL WITH THE REGULATOR YOU SELECT (IF YOU OPT TO USE A REGULATOR) ! The inline dial-type 0~5 psi for $34.95 at the FLAPS is excellent..................IF YOU HAVE A RABBIT PROBLEM IN YOUR GARDEN AND A STRONG RIGHT ARM ;)

     

    Jon. 

    • Like 2

  17. According to Google:

     

    "In 1909–1910, William G. Allen patented a method of cold-forming screw heads around a hexagonal die (U.S. Patent 960,244). ... Hallowell does describe, however, the same inspiration also mentioned in connection withAllen for a wave of adoption of the hex socket head, beginning with set screws and followed by cap screws."

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1

  18. There may (or may not) be a round tag riveted to the top of the first carburetor. If so, the inner number would be the identification number. Probably from some mid-1930's truck.

     

    The second carb appears to be a Model B Ford core (not rebuilt, or if it is rebuilt, the "rebuilder" did not clean it !).

     

    Value depends on if you find someone that wants either. If you get more than $50. apiece for either including shipping charges, call me and I will send you some on consignment ;) 

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1

  19. Not a vacuum leak. The use of the "drip loop" eliminates drips. Simply a loop fashioned from copper tubing below the carb connecting the air intake drain to a vacuum source. Used on marine carbs, primarily type YH, but can be used on anything.

     

    Jon.

    • Like 1