carbking
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Posts posted by carbking
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Hugh - sorry that you had bad luck with the Schebler D; we have had lots of customers use them successfully.
A few thoughts:
A new old stock Schebler D would be at least 80 years old (the Marvel/Schebler division of Borg/Warner was still making them as late as 1940).
Other than the normal spider nest in a jet possibility, there are three possible issues that come to mind:
(1) the cork gasket between the body halves could dry up, shrink, and create an internal vacuum leak.
(2) the leather sealing surface of the air valve could deteriorate and not seal at idle.
(3) the air valve spring could fatigue allowing the air valve to open too soon, thus running lean.
Jon
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In the for what its worth category:
The information in my database suggests that Metz used a Schebler model D on the 1909, 1910, and 1911 models. The D would be easier to adjust than the H.
The model H Schebler was typically used on motorcycles.
Of course records from this period are mostly incomplete.
Jon
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That carb has either been subjected to a severe backfire(s) or worked on by Dr. Goodpliers.
Replace.
Jon
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We have factory (Stromberg) documentation on both; plus rebuilding kits, and many internal parts for either.
No castings for either.
Jon.
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Clean off the tag barely visible in picture 3. The inner number will be the Zenith identification number.
Jon
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The original would have been a Zenith type L-6 in 1913. This carb was obsoleted in 1914, and replaced by a Zenith M-6.
Either of these might be difficult to find.
As far as equivalents:
Brass Stromberg L-3 or M-3
Cast iron Stromberg SF-3 or SFM-3, Zenith 63AW12 or 263M2E12
Any of the above should be fitted at rebuild with a 28~30mm venturi, and the externally adjustable main metering jet.
You MIGHT get a Carter BB-1 289s or 289sd to work if you butcher the idle circuit.
None of the above are available new. You simply need a good shot of patience, and look for one.
Jon
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We still make the kit for the M-1, if you are not in a hurry. We are fairly backed up right now on pre-WWII kits other than Carter, but taking orders to process as received.
Contact info in my signature block below.
Jon
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Air Friction made a number of different configurations.
If you are concerned that yours might get lonely, I have two of them, an updraft and a sidedraft, on Ebay right now.
The updraft on Ebay is a salesman's display sample.
Jon
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Testing with an auxiliary fuel tank with electric pump would tell you if it is ignition related or fuel delivery related.
Jon
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NO, there is not such a source of information; because:
The Imperial used a 1 3/16 venturi.
The late Packard used a 1 5/16 inch venturi, thus applying the Chrysler calibration would result in a lean condition due to lower venturii air velocity in the larger carburetor.
The early Packard EE-3 used the same 1 3/16 inch venturi as the Imperial.
So why did Ed suggest the later Packard carb?
Guessing here:
While the early EE-3 was better than the DD-3, the early (1932 and 1933) EE-3's had "teething" problems.
Stromberg revised some of the internal circuitry in 1934 when they went to the 1 5/16 venturi, and again revised the circuitry in 1937 (the late Packard EE-3). In addition to better internal circuitry, the later carbs had better quality castings.
And finally, the early Packard carbs (poorer castings) are MUCH more difficult to obtain, as many of the castings have failed.
I totally agree with Ed, that the late Packard EE-3 would make an excellent upgrade; but if you do so, leave the Packard calibration in the carburetor, and tune from there.
You could even replace the Packard throttle arm with the Chrysler arm.
Jon
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Removal of the 2 large screws should allow the air horn to be carefully removed.
This will expose the linkage to both the accelerator pump and the vacuum piston. This would include the pump lever and the shoulder screw. Removing the shoulder screw (its been awhile, but I THINK it is left-hand thread) will allow the pump lever to removed. Now, both the accelerator pump and vacuum piston may be detached from the pump lever, allowing these items to remain in the bowl. Now removal of the three smaller screws should allow the bowl cover to be removed.
Totally free, and non-requested advice:
Unless you cannot see the car behind you in the rear view mirror for the black smoke, leave it alone, and DON'T look at the spark plugs
Jon
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The specification that sticks out like a sore thumb in the above chart is that Buick REDUCED the carburetor size from the 364 to the 401. And then reduced the size of the 364 carburetor the following year.
The reduction was on the primary side of the carburetor, which would have the effect of increasing the idle signal slightly.
The other specification that to me is significant, is that the change differential on the step-up rods from high vacuum to low vacuum continued to decrease (read - the carburetor was leaned at WOT).
Jon
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Willis - here is your requested carburetor comparison.
EDIT: the 3578 should read 425, not 401. Sorry.
Jon
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When did Buick start using the PCV?
Jon
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Willis - a minor disagreement about newer carbs versus older original carbs.
If one has a 1965 Nova 327 with pop-ups, big cam, and headers, then I won't argue.
But for the vast majority of older carburetors, I think the biggest issue is not the carburetor, but the understanding of the carburetor by the individual working on the carburetor. (No offense meant to anyone, just my opinion).
Many carburetors have a "gotcha" (so do efi, its called sub-zero weather!). Starting an engine reliably in sub-zero weather is easier with a carburetor with a manual choke, and Mobil 1 (opinion).
But discussing three of the more common "modern" (1957~1975) carburetors most folks will encounter, the Carter AFB, the Rochester 4G(C), and the Rochester 4MV (Q-Jet). I have posted all of this before, but here getting it all in one spot.
The Carter AFB has sacrificial step-up pistons. The earliest AFB pistons were brass. About 2 months, and carb housings were wearing, causing an internal vacuum leak, and a rich condition at all engine load except wide open throttle. Carter recognized this fact, and quickly changed the material from brass to aluminum, AND the aluminum alloy used for the pistons is much softer than the alloy used for the carburetor body. Thus, the pistons will wear, but the housing does not. Since Carter was in the business of selling carburetors, I personally think this decision admirable. (Opinion) rebuilding a Carter AFB WITHOUT replacing the pistons is like throwing a rock at a mountain lion, just asking for problems.
In 1956 Rochester started using a spring-loaded air valve on many of their 4G(C) carburetors. Air valve springs fatigue. When the spring fatigues, the air valve will open too soon, causing a bog a.k.a. hesitation when the secondary side of the carburetor is engaged. Again, rebuilding one of these without replacing and adjusting the spring is about as fruitless as trying to win an argument with the IRS!
The Rochester 4MV a.k.a. Q-Jet can have several "gotchas", the earlier versions more than the later ones, as Rochester like Carter, recognized issues, and corrected them as they were identified. The 1965 4MV is probably best left to a carburetor professional. The 1966 version somewhat improved, the 1967 version even better, and by 1968 the 4MV was a really good carburetor, but still had issues. The internet is full of disturbed pixels about bushing the primary throttle shaft, so will leave that one alone, other than to comment that many folks would be better off taking the throttle body to a machine shop! But the 4MV, like the 4G(C) has a spring loaded air valve. Interestingly, the exact same spring! Replace it. But the hidden issue here is the plastic cam that controls the opening rate and final height of the air valve. A metal follower rubs on the plastic, and metal is generally harder than plastic. The plastic cam wears. And due to the geometry of the design (the cam is between the base and the rod) the lift reduction due to wear is double the wear. Always replace the cam and spring when rebuilding a 4MV.
Other carbs have their own gotchas. Some of these I understand, and some I didn't work on, so have less, or no, understanding.
Jon
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Wisconsin Industrial
Jon
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The throttle shaft and fast idle link indicate one of the universal BB-1's.
C to C
2-7/16 - 245s (cast bowl), 245sd (diecast bowl)
2 11/16 - BB1A (cast bowl) BB1D (diecast bowl)
2 15/16 - 289s (cast bowl) 289sd (diecast bowl)
The original Stewart was and is an excellent carburetor.
Jon
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Apparently, there was an early and a late intake manifold. Remember the manuals were printed prior to production of the vehicles; and of course would not show mid-year changes, the service bulletins show those.
There is no mention in the Stromberg records of a UX-2 for the Senior 6. Not arguing the point, simply looking at the Stromberg records.
Stromberg did release the UX-2 for the Standard Six and the Victory Six.
I don't have the date when the TX-2 (2 11/6) was changed to the UX-3 (2 15/16), but these are the units listed as correct for the Senior Six application.
Decades ago, when we acquired the remains of Stromberg including the remaining factory inventory, we submitted a sample of that pot metal to a metalurgist, who suggested the failure was due to an excessive amount of lead in the early zinc alloy. Not just carburetors: door handles, distributor bases, all of it up to the early 1930's had problems.
Before you convert to the downdraft carb:
The BB-1 carburetor has TWO idle tubes, one quite obvious, and the other hidden in the lower casting. Most idle issues with the BB-1 (assuming the correct carburetor) are caused by failure to remove the hidden idle tube and blowing out the passage. Try that before doing the conversion.
And I would suggest looking for the larger Senior Six manifold, so a larger carb could be installed.
EDIT: more information. The TX-2 used by the Senior Six had a venturi of 1 3/32 inch; and it was replaced by the UX-3 with a venturi of 1 1/8 inch. The BB1A and BB1D both have a 1 inch venturi. So the TX-2 is 20 percent larger than the BB1A/D and the UX-3 is 27 percent larger in venturii area.
Jon
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18 minutes ago, dodge28 said:
I used a BB1 on my 1928 225 Dodge engine. It was rebuilt by a professional Carb rebuilder. I could never get the idle screw to work. Fully screwed in or out made no difference. According to Dodge the original carb was a UX something , I cannot remember. NO BODY IN THE DODGE BRROTHERS WORLD KNEW HOW TO HOOK UP THE LEVER. I went to carter BB1. It needed an adapter to mount. Later I was advised to use a Carter BBsa something I cannot remember the number now. The mounting bolts on the manifold were too wide so I made a new adapter. The carb works. But the air idle screw has no effect on fine tuning.
GUESSING!
Based on your post, you have a Senior Six.
The early production 1928 Senior Six used a Stromberg TX-2, which was found to be too small. Sometime early on in production (I don't have a serial number break), the TX-2 was replaced with the UX-3. The intake manifold and the UX-3 would have 2 15/16 center to center bolt spacing. Carter recommended the 289s carburetor with a tapered throttle bore, and a 1 1/16 inch venturi. Since your bolt spacing on the manifold was too wide, it is probable that you do NOT have the 289s, rather probably a BB1A or BB1D with 2 11/16 bolt spacing, a cylindrical throttle bore (not tapered) and a 1 inch venturi. The mismatch of airflow from carburetor to intake manifold is probably messing with the idle signal, causing the idle screw to not function correctly. The engine would also be slightly down on power because of the smaller carburetor venturi.
Even if rebuilt by a professional, the wrong carb will not function correctly.
Jon
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Chris - if one has a downdraft carburetor and one pumps the footfeed, fuel runs into the intake manifold (gravity), vaporizes, and helps start the vehicle.
If one has an updraft carburetor WITH a mechanical accelerator pump (the Carter BB-1), and pumps the footfeed, fuel runs into the lower section of the carburetor throttle area, and if pumped 3 or 4 times for sufficient volume, runs out of the air inlet drain down (gravity) on to whatever is directly below the drain. The drain on your carburetor is plugged with a bolt??? The drain should be functional. On marine carbs, Carter would install a "drip loop", connecting the drain with a vacuum source above the throttle plate. This is very simply a loop in some copper tubing. The fuel that drains down from the intake when the engine is shut off, drains into the drip loop, where it sits harmlessly until the next time the engine is cranked. The vacuum created when cranking the engine pulls any fuel still in the drip loop into the intake.
If one has an updraft carburetor with a vacuum accelerator pump (Stromberg SF/SFM series, Zenith 63/263 series) and pumps the footfeed, one merely exercises one's ankle
The vacuum accelerator pump does nothing until the engine is running, and has vacuum available to charge the pump spring for subsequent action.
One should start an engine with an updraft carburetor by using the choke (if the carburetor has one).
Your carburetor is one of three possible models, which you can determine by measuring the center to center of the mounting bolt pattern:
2 3/8 or 2 7/16 - 245SD
2 11/16 - BB1D
2 15/16 - 289SD
If you ever need a rebuilding kit, the identification will be the first question asked you.
Jon
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Thanks Andrew - yes, they ARE popular, probably more popular than they should be. The folks in the Great American Race discovered them early in the history of the race, and thus began the race to see who could buy them up before their neighbor did
They work VERY well on smaller engines, and they are very compact (unlike the better Stromberg and Zenith universals).
My biggest objection to the BB-1 is the mechanical accelerator pump. I know everyone here knows that one does NOT pump the footfeed on any vehicle with an updraft carburetor; but not all of our heirs are aware of that fact. Once the starting procedule is complete, the BB-1 is as good as the equivilent Stromberg or Zenith.
I have been keeping casting number databases on Carter carburetors, including the BB-1, for decades. Just not happy with the small amount of data in the BB-1 database. There are 46 different, and I only have 11, less than 25 percent. I am closer to 75 percent on the WCFB, AFB, YH, and UT; about 95 percent on the W-1's.
Jon
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Doing research on Carter BB-1 updraft carburetors.
There have been quite a few threads here about folks having issues with BB-1 carbs on larger engines. I have posted a few times that we have had issues with customers trying to use these on engines over maybe 275 CID.
So, more information:
It has been assumed by many, including me, that the 289s (or 289sd) was the largest of the BB-1 updraft carbs. It is the largest of the universal BB-1 carbs. But the 871s and 2075s carbs used by Chevrolet on the 235 and 261 engines have venturii with a 25 percent larger area than the 289s/sd. The largest engine which used the BB-1 as original equipment was the Chevrolet 261.
The 261 was rated at 3400 RPM, so one could surmise that MAYBE one of these larger BB-1's MIGHT support early engines of 450 or so CFM if the engine redlined at 1500~1600 RPM. But one would still need to address the idle circuit.
The idle jet in the Chevrolet carburetor is 0.031 inch, whereas the idle jet in the 289s is only 0.0236.
Thus even using the larger Chevrolet carburetor would require the idle jet to be enlarged if used on engines of more than 261 CID.
As I have custody of the Carter prints, I have been able to do the "paper" research, but now need some "physical evidence".
If anyone has any Carter BB-1 updrafts he/she would consider selling or trading, please see my list of wanted BB-1's in the parts wanted section. Just want one of each. At my age, no intent on trying to buy more carburetors for inventory. These will be disassembled, casting numbers placed in my database (to help folks in the future identify carbs missing tags), restored for pictures, and sold. Again, only one of each required, and we currently have 11 different. These numbers do not appear in the wanted list. Do not wish to acquire more of those I already have.
Jon
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WANTED TO BUY, TRADE FOR, EVEN STEAL
Doing research, have finished "paper" research, now need some physical evidence.
Need one each of the following Carter BB-1 updraft carburetors:
Numbered 257s, 262s, 289s, 289sd, 489s, 517s, 586s, 638s, 640s, 641s, 699s, 2035s, 2212s, 3377s, 4403s
Coded 4A1, 3A2, 4A3, 6A1, 6B1, 6B2, 6C1, 6C2, 6D1R, 6F1, 6J2, 6J3, 6K2, 6K3, 6N1, 6N2, BB1D
Carbs MUST have original tags, and be reasonably complete.
Condition is less important. Will accept carbs with stuck chokes or stuck throttles.
Only need one of each.
Jon
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Another vote that it is not a Marvel
Jon
WANTED - Carter type BB-1 updraft carburetors
in Parts Wanted
Posted
No longer need 517s or 699s.
Still need one each of the others.
Jon