Grimy

I'll try to shed some light on this from Pierce-Arrow's approach, which was to use *volume* rather than pressure. My 1918 48 dual valve manual says 25 psi at 40 mph hot, BUT that year they also changed the oil pressure gauge from a 50-lb to a 100-lb! This was documented in PAMCC Engineering Committee minutes published 20 years ago in the PAS magazine. On the other end of the Pierce spectrum, my 1925 Series 80 (junior varsity single-valve offering), also has a 100-lb gauge but 20-25 psi at hot run is fine and "just off the peg" (i.e., 1-2 psi) idle is also fine, although there are external adjustments for both idle and run. My 1930 and 1934 Pierce 8s are similar. Only beginning in 1936 did the Owners Manual increase the desired hot-run oil pressure to 35 lbs at 40 mph. Remember that there were no multi-grade oils when these cars were produced. Even with the 15W-40 I run in my fleet, cold start oil pressure at 1,000 rpm may be 60-70 psi but drops off very substantially as the engine and oil warm up. When I first acquired my Series 80 in 1994, I used single-grade SAE 30 and even a very worn engine produced 80 psi at cold start but pressure dropped off quickly as the engine warmed. For what it may be worth...but of course I defer to Lincoln specialists. Just know you're not alone 🙂

Likewise, Al--we haven't seen you guys since the Glidden in 2018(?)

Thank you very much, Frank! You have substantially added to our future claim that belly pans be excluded from judging. Your six points are all duplicated on the Pierce-Arrow of the same vintage. The Pierce belly pans have a couple of access panels which require loosening a screw before the panel can be removed or moved out of the way to perform some service operation. The belly pans are not liquid-tight in my opinion, but nearly enough so to permit accumulation of leaked liquids for awhile--and some sections without those removable panels permit pooling of fluids until some volume is achieved. I agree with your point that the belly pans are not needed as much today, now that we have paved roads and debris such as clumps of dirt, stones and horse droppings are no longer a risk to our open clutches and other unprotected components. I completely agree that belly pans were often discarded by mechanics or owners when the cars were a few years old and may have required more service. Accordingly, belly pans in good condition are expensive today. The job of removing mine took a friend and me two hours, and I am sure replacement would take double that. Reproduction costs for Pierce units seem to range from US $8,000 to $20,000! Some of the safety concern is that our floats and carburetors are more than 100 years old, the security of spark plug wires is far less than on later vehicles, and that modern sealing technologies did not exist when these magnificent machines were built.

But cars often have human-like personalities, especially Matt's Lincoln... 🙂

Thanks, Al. This week I'm frantically preparing the 1918 and my truck and trailer for a run beginning Saturday to St George and Bryce Canyon UT for the HCCA Nickel Era Touring Registry's 6-day, 600-mile tour of those areas. Briefly, however, we had 43 cars this year on the Modoc of which 42% were Pierces, but also plenty of Model Ts. Greater than usual number of riders-with-others due to (1) age and infirmity and (2) projects not completed in time. Terrific weather: 45-low 80s, no rain. I had a rider from NY who just acquired a Series 51 and was soaking this unique cultural experience all up, including the deer crossing Main Street in Alturas and in the back yard of our rented Air-B&B house. And so as not to completely hijack this thread, a couple of Locomobiles!

I returned Saturday from the annual 5-day Modoc Tour which had eleven RHD (i.e., through 1920) Pierce-Arrows which were originally equipped with what we today call "belly pans." Most of those cars' owners on this tour had removed the belly pans in the interest of safety as Johnny has described. Some collectors, however, keep them on for authenticity and, perhaps, judging points--because lack of an installed belly pan is often fatal to judging success. Several of us engaged in a discussion about those issues. On *this* tour we saw a 1912 Hudson so equipped dump about a quart of oil from its belly pan when parked diagonally on a heavily banked street. Several of us recalled an incident about 15 years ago when a Pierce 66 hp had an engine fire on the road from accumulated leaked gasoline in the belly pan. (Mercifully, the fire was quickly extinguished but the hood was well scorched and I don't know the extent of the damage to the engine, but the car was back on the road within a year.) I can only speak to Pierce-Arrows. Later Pierces with updraft carburetors (1929-1932 8s) have drain tubes from the carb through the splash pans to the ground, mitigating the problem. When an engine with an updraft carb is shut down, the vaporized fuel in the intake runners condenses and flows back to the already-full carburetor, creating a spill. If that spill is retained within a belly pan and thus kept close to the engine and its sources of ignition, a dangerous condition is created. My 1918 48-B-5 came with a belly pan which I removed for cleaning and to better service the engine. I had intended to replace it but had second thoughts on the safety issue, so four years later the belly pan is in storage but not installed. Several of us are contemplating an initiative to change PAS judging rules to permit no loss of points in judging competition for lack of a belly pan--perhaps accepting a photograph of a belly pan to demonstrate that the belly pan for that car exists. If a club/society values the driving of such cars, they should consider such an approach.

@AHa here's a 2-pager that was available to me tonight. Covers both G&L. I have only photocopies. Best I can do until next week.

@neil morse that's Mason Street, nonne?

The car has been off the road for a few years now (hopefully ON the road by spring), but the Rayfield G performed well in that there was plenty of power throughout the range--surprisingly so by 1920s standards. But it was a bit finicky to learn to dial in with the knurled detent adjustment knobs that took some time to get used to (I counted clicks each way in the process). In my area I did not want the water jacket feature (heated coolant around carb to facilitate combustion in the 1920s is exactly the opposite of what we need today), so I shut off the flow valves but left the lines in place.

Not me unless it's in October...so where the heck is Lake Chelan?

Wayne, check the bicycle light selection at your local Walmart. LED red with option for steady or flashing light, run on one AAA battery. Look for means of attachment: some have spring clips, others have velcro straps. Just don't use the flashing option while on tour (OK if not) because after 5 miles of following the freaking flashing light, I'm inclined to do damage to the owner at the next rest stop.

So much disrespect! John, that car should perform almost as well as your Loco albeit with less luxury. And it can be driven under the same road conditions.

Here's a cut-and-paste section from the Paige 6-66 owner's manual, which I have only as a pdf (I had to edit piecemeal as the cut-and-paste didn't work well): I also have about a 4-page brochure (print only) on the Rayfield G which if I find it I can photograph--but I'm frantically preparing a car for a tour at the moment. Let me know if you need more. Dash Control The carburetor is equipped with a dash control which raises the-low speed adjusting needle, supplying a richer mixture for starting the motor when stiff or cold. When puÌled aÌl the way out, Figure No. 15 SECTIONAL VIEW OF CARBURETOR it not only raises the 1ow speed needle, allowing for a richer mixture of gas, but also operates the starting primer. This primer provides an increased charge of gas from the float chamber directly into the motor. It is controlled by a plunger valve with two by-pass openings-one in the throat of the carburetor above the throttle butterfly; the other in the float chamber beneath the gas level. By pulling out the dash control full length, which automatically pushes the plunger valve down, the by-pass is opened and the motor draws a_very rich charge of gas directly from the float chamber. The throttle must be closed in order to obtain this action effectively.

So do certain Lockheed aircraft....

Be gentle especially on the fuel fitting/banjo lest you crack/split the pot metal "tower" into which it is screwed. As for the circumferential filister head screws, if judging is not in your immediate future add a flat washer under each to spread the load.

Mr. Roos was also an engineer at Locomobile and Pierce-Arrow.

As in ALL L-29 Cords....

(I was pulled while answering this; now I'm back) Short of removing it, try using circles of 3/16" or even 1/4" packing. After each circle, note where the break is so you don't put the next break in the same place. Compress the gland nut after EACH circle individually. Of course, diagonal-cut each circle. Several of mine have 3/4" diameter shafts, so I keep a short length of 3/4" broomstick with my bulk packing materials. I put the broomstick in the vise horizontally and wrap the packing into circles, cutting with a razor blade. I carry several pre-cut circles with me in a ziplock bag. I also use a rounded end dental pick to push each circle into the best position possible, before closing the gland nut. One of those picks rides with too.

Look on seat frame under the cushion. Mine is on the passenger side under front seat on my 1922 Paige 6-66 "Larchmont II" 4-passenger phaeton:

Definitely a Series 33 T-head 414 cid--that's all they made in 1923. The smaller Series 80 didn't arrive until August 1924 as a 1925 model. This one is certainly a 33. I think we've seen this one before, couple of years ago perhaps, with the same poor photos.

Could also be on the seat frame under the passenger seat cushion, as found on several larger Paige models.

Skirted fenders make it 1933 or newer unless it's a Graham, which it is not. Could be a 1934 but I'll call it a 1933.

That's Ed as a YOUNG man--I'd recognize him anywhere even though he rarely dresses like that these days!

Use a long pin to lift the fabric over each nailhead before fully seated then tap it home using a shield--that's the way it's done, but those heads may be sunk too deep. No idea what to use on that broadcloth--anyone have any carbon tet left over?

I guess.... But whenever I see Gainsborough's "Blue Boy" (Ed showed us a photo), I think of Ed..... PAS had the Huntington as one of the attractions at our 2014 Winter Meet--and also the Nixon Library which had a very honest account of his last days in office.