wayne sheldon

Yet another one on FB with the price given in two places in the ad, and they are vastly different?

Matt G, Oh boy, ya done good! I sure wish I could have been closer and able to attend. Just looking at the photos it looks to rival some of the best I have ever seen! And years ago, I saw a lot.

So much history! A good internet friend several years ago while researching Ford's model K history, found numerous articles published in 1907 stating that in the USA, the most popular style race was 24 hours on an oval track! Many such races were run around the country that year as well as years before and after. Exact rules varied over relief drivers and/or cars, but someone and something was being run almost the entire 24 hours! So, yes, they did race at night! By the way, the model K Ford won fully its share of those races. Largely ignored by historians (many that liked to say the model K was a failure as a car when in fact by era standards it was one of the most successful of all automobiles of that era), in the years before the model T, Ford won a higher percentage of the races they entered than almost any other automaker of that era! Their total number of wins wasn't all that high, but they entered a small fraction of the number of races to begin with. Why so many tail lamps? Visibility is certainly a major reason one way or another. "Another" way, is that between the curious ways of wind, and vibration, oil tail lamps weren't all that reliable. If twists in the wind at the back of a speeding car blowing out flames wasn't enough? Shaking and vibration could rattle the font and/or bowl loose and drop it onto the road behind! Either way, one may start out with four or five tail lamps lit on the back, and be grateful to have even one of them still lit twenty minutes later. And if one is driving? One likely will not know when one of the lamps, maybe even the last one, goes out. I imagine that a racing team's pit crew (on oval tracks) might flag their drivers in sometimes just to relight the tail lamps (may or may not have even been in the rules?). That could result in nearly another mile lost for the final count. Those 24 hour oval track races were who covered the most miles in the 24 hours, as measured by the number of laps completed. Even thirty seconds to slow down, enter the pits, relight the lamp(s), and then speed up back onto the track could cost nearly a mile! A bunch of lamps could mean fewer delays. As for headlamps on those track races? I have read enough era articles and seen enough era photos of these races to know that some cars did not have headlamps on them (at least some of the time?), and some cars did have headlamps at least some of the time. It may have varied track to track or even race to race. I know at least some of the tracks were lit at night enough to stay on the track, and hopefully see and avoid other cars. However, the dust kicked up by cars could easily obscure that car enough that headlamps or track lights might not be enough! A lit tail lamp could give that needed one more second to avoid a collision. And again having read several era articles, collisions did happen, not always, but often enough. Wonderful photos of those Cole racing cars!

That was one of the first things I noticed about the car when I first looked at the photos. Like happened so often through the decades, the original top may have been removed for some reason and lost. A later owner wanting to use the car as an "antique" picked up some old touring car top and without any serious research or knowledge had some local "trimmer" that knew even less about the car shove the sockets and bows on there and fit a top. It came out worse than most such efforts because apparently without any effort at engineering or actual design, on a very unusual body style requiring a properly fitting top? The whatever small touring car top just did not fit on the fairly large but short coupled cloverleaf body style. So now the car is right back where it was half a century ago with basically no top. Someone with some knowledge and understanding of cars of the era needs to get some parts of tops, of appropriate types and style. What is there may even be just right as parts? Then using whatever photos are available of the Chandler cloverleaf roadster, as well as a few other similar cars of the era as additional references, using the car's original body to top mounting brackets as anchor points to work from. Design and build an entirely new top framework by cutting, welding, altering, fitting , the key pieces from unknown other tops. New bows (the wood part!) will most likely need to be made to properly fit the width. Both sides will have to be made to exactly match each other, and tested for functionality, before making or fitting the wooden bows. The entire assembly (including the bows) will have to be carefully sized and fitted to the original body anchors. Every detail of sizing and fitting, design, and appearance, will need to checked, and rechecked, adjusted, and checked again, and then again and again, until it looks and measures, and functions, just right, before you can have a trimmer that understands the antique automobile era tops can begin making the material top for it. It may be possible to slightly alter the top on the car and refit it to work well enough? But it isn't right. The original pictured in the era articles has a common point attaching to the body, whereas the top on the car has the second bow from the rear attaching midway on the first bow. That top assembly is way to long for the cloverleaf body. It might be "possible" to alter and shorten the top and maybe even make it function well enough? But again, it would not be right that way. It really isn't all that difficult to do it right. Because I couldn't afford to buy a genuine 1915 model T runabout top for my car? (Anybody that knew what they had wanted a lot more money than I could afford to spend for them! Supply versus demand.) I made my top sockets myself out of remnants of other top sockets I had had for years. As for some of the other advice I spelled out? Often when I could (which used to be often), I would hang around, visit with, and even help out friend's restoration shops. I have watched and even hands on helped occasionally with the recreation of fops for touring cars that had lost theirs. Been there, seen that, done that. It can be done, and done right.

I don't know about this particular model? But over fifteen years ago, a longtime good friend with a fabulous collection took one of his Pierce 48s on a "big boy's toys" tour. The following week, telling me about the good time they had, he said the only car on the tour that he couldn't keep up with was the 1915 Fiat!

I never saw it myself, but I heard about that Mercer some years ago. From a longtime good friend.

Nash automobiles of the 1920s were generally considered relatively fast, reliable, and solid good cars.

Nice! And rather rare, much more so than most cars that word is used on. "Cloverleaf roadsters" were offered by quite a number of automakers in the mid to late 1910s. They did not sell in large numbers, and survival of them seems much lower than the more common roadsters and touring cars. I have seen a few of them over the years, and had a few friends that did own one make or another. A very good friend has a 1917 Auburn cloverleaf roadster. An incredible looking car! Driven on tours often. As a late 1915 year car, it would qualify for the HCCA, and be quite a fine car for HCCA tours which are quite popular. Well worth being restored still.

Yes, that carb is an after-market fits-all replacement. Jon "Carb King" could be much more specific about it. Buick's Marvel carbs had a tendency to be problematical, especially when the cars got a bit old and were used by people that didn't care to take the trouble to sort them out. Usually, those undersize after-market carbs made things worse instead of better.

Can't see enough of that "rear fender" to know for sure what it is, other than it is really messed up! It actually looks like it may be a 1914 or earlier front fender cut and reshaped slightly and cobbled on. Or it might be a 1914 rear fender?

Your long trumpet is not likely from the OP photo car, or its manufacturer brothers (either Singer or Mercedes). It is a possibility that it could be from one of those or some other European car, just not really likely. It more probably was from an American after-market horn from the late 1930s through the 1970s. Or even possibly from a larger tractor trailer or other large truck somewhere in that same era. Long trumpet horns, sometimes duel horns for dual tones were fairly common on large trucks for many years. They also became popular accessories often used on pickups and even common cars. I suspect something similar might still be available new, although I haven't noticed such horns on big trucks recently. Dusty C, you slipped in just as I was about to hit "Submit Reply"! Thank you for the additional details and the link. History is very important. If we as a society don't learn it, and learn from it, society will be doomed to again see that sort of horror on a large scale.

The thread title was intriguing. So I had to look. Now, I proudly proclaim that my real interests in collector cars is all pre1930. But I can appreciate later stuff. I am surprised at how nicely done this appears to be. It actually looks good to me. But then I guess I don't worship early Mustangs.

I wonder if those are thin steel discs covering wire wheels. That became a common thing in the English and European areas in the very late 1920s and early to mid 1930s. Wire wheels there were much more common there than in the USA due to Europe's lack of suitable wood for making wooden spoke wheels. Wire wheels were a pain to clean, and as they became more "old-fashioned" in later years, it became common for high end automobiles to cover them. Hobbyists and restorers in the recent seventy years have usually left them off wire wheels. Although not so common that early, I have seen era photos showing such discs as early as 1910.

I look at the era photos, know the context, and wondering about some of the people (especially the mother(?) and two children?), just boggles the mind! The horrors she may have known most people today cannot begin to understand!

Most General Motor's makes offered steel disc wheels as an option in the mid 1920s at least to 1930. Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, and even some Cadillacs used Jaxon steel disc wheels. I have also seen Jaxon steel discs on a couple Buicks, but the disc wheels never seemed to be popular with Buick buyers. Those wheels do not look like any of the Jaxon wheels I have seen. But some GM cars did get steel discs by some other supplier. I don't recall their name offhand.

History in the context of its time. The early automobile was such an improvement over horse and buggy, that issues like freshening the valves in the engine every 8000 miles was barely a minor inconvenience. There were quite a number of automobiles that famously ran fifty-, or over a hundred-, even two hundred-thousand miles "without any engine repair" or rebuild. Pierce Arrows, Studebakers, even a 1911 Hupmobile made similar claims (all pre1925 cars)! (The 1911 Hupmobile story is well worth reading!) I am not sure I believe most of those claims, but I am sure there is some truth to some of them. However, back in those days, seven to ten thousand miles was expected regrinding or replacing the valves in most cars. And around twenty to thirty thousand miles expected new rings and usually some additional work. That sort of "reality" is largely forgotten today. Of course, a lot of cars did go farther without any major work being done. Automobiles were a huge step upward for modern man, and the people then knew that and appreciated it. They didn't think riding in an open car for fifteen miles without a heater and in a cold heavy rain was a hardship, because they remembered riding a horse at less than half the speed, being out in it for more than twice as long, and then having to take care of the horse when they got home.

That gasoline tank might have usable fillers or other pieces to use building a tank yourself. You appear to be quite capable. Making a nearly exact copy is difficult requiring special rolling and crimping tools, and shrinking of crimped metal. Making something fairly close to right and looking good installed and not looking too close? Not all that difficult. A modern made plastic gasoline tank custom made for size and fit, does have advantages due to chemistry issues with modern gasoline. But if you are like me, I find that idea a bit offensive and would prefer a steel one myself. Short version. Start with minimum 20 gauge minimum galvanized sheet steel, 18 gauge (one standard size thicker) would be better if you can get some. A lot of figuring will be necessary using your rusted out original as a guide. Cut out the oval ends about a quarter inch oversize. Special tools would help, but folding that quarter inch extra over by hand and jigs to help making smooth sharp folds can be done with not a lot of effort. The fold over should be slightly beyond the 90 degrees out (reason to be given later). Remember, that quarter inch folded out goes out away from the inside of the tank. The end pieces were originally slightly dished, isn't really necessary, but if you want to go through the trouble, it isn't very hard to do. Make both ends. The main outer skin is pretty straight forward. You can chose to do it in a single piece, with the seam somewhere on the top side. But that can get awkward when putting the tank together. An option is to cut the main piece short (going around the gasoline tank, not the side to side width) about a foot or a little more. Then later braze two seams in the top area hidden by chassis and body once all are together. Be sure when cutting the metal for the width of the gasoline tank to remember to leave that quarter of an inch to join the ends and outer skin. Somehow, clamp the end pieces into the outer skin to hold its shape. Gently shaping of the outer skin first would help. Vise grips work well for clamping tight corners. Once the outer skin and both end pieces are clamped in place, and the whole tank is even and square? Begin brazing the bottom half of both the outer skin and the end pieces together. This is where that over square fold over comes into play. You want to have a close fit between the end pieces and the outer skin, however, with a bit of a "V" shaped gap formed between the end piece's folded over and the outer skin. For a very strong and leak proof brazing, fill that "V" gap with braze. This will also create an appearance similar to the original double folded and crimped then soldered seam (if you make it good and neat). I don't know about Buick that year? Your original tanks may have had baffles inside. Whether they did or not, baffles are arguably a good idea. With the upper half of the tank still open, baffles can be made to fit with adequate holes for the gasoline to flow slowly though. They can be attached in many ways. Many tanks originally riveted them in, then sealed the rivets with solder. Several times repairing or modifying gasoline tanks, when I could get and work inside? I have brazed them into place. A few times with mostly intact tanks, I have cut slits in the outer skin and brazed through them to braze the baffles into place. Tremendous CAUTION!!! Any sort of welding or brazing on gasoline tanks that have had gasoline in them at any time in the past a lot longer than you might think must be handled with GREAT CARE by someone familiar with the risks!!!! People don't want to believe it, but steel is NOT solid! At the molecular level, gasoline does soak partway into steel, and can stay there for many decades. Significant heat can boil it out of the steel and create a fuel vapor even in gasoline tanks that haven't been used in fifty years! And that vapor can be explosive. I have seen it myself, with a model T gasoline tank I had had for over thirty years that had been dry for unknown decades before I got it. I knew, I took all the usual precautions, cleaning etc., and filled the tank with water before very carefully brazing a baffle back into place. Nothing bad happened because I was careful. But it was an interesting sight when the tiny air space I left for the torch to braze the baffle through a slit found enough fuel vapor from a small heated area to ignite and blow out the flame on my acetylene torch! Making a new tank that has never yet had gasoline in it? A whole lot easier and safer. With room to work from the open top side, I would braze baffles (if used) into place from the inside. Plan ahead for your filler neck, bottom drain, gasoline pickup line, and fuel gauge if it has one. Some gasoline tanks are cradled into place by straps or external brackets. Some tanks have mounting bolts or brackets attached to the tank itself! Don't forget those. Placement and timing for all of those will need to be worked out as you go. Some of those things will be easier to work with if the outer skin is cut short and the top piece brazed in later with two seams (carefully placed where they will not show when installed). Once all that stuff is in place? The upper half of the skin and seams can be brazed together. It is wise to pressure test the tank before testing with gasoline. Any minor brazing errors should be found and fixed before installing the tank. I don't know where our gasoline chemistry will take us in the future. But most of the stuff today is pretty nasty and accelerates rusting of the tank from the inside out. Brazed areas will burn off some of the galvanizing. Still, a steel tank made this way should last for a very long time. And short of crawling under the car to examine it closely, should look just fine. Just a potential additional project to consider if you cannot get a good proper original gasoline tank, or not find some other suitable replacement.

A nice solid looking survivor mid1930s car! Not sure if it is nice enough for almost 20K or not?

In that tight space, a short piece of close size but lower shrink ratio heat shrink tubing may be best. Just enough to cover the short exposed area. It probably isn't even needed as that "cradle" should be an insulator itself. I dislike working on modern cars, but have had to fairly often. Sometimes they make wires barely long enough, and almost any single splice may not be long enough? A doubly crimped butt splice should work. I understand your dislike of "bulky and ugly" wire clusters. A method I have used more than a few times. First, do whatever you are going to do with the end connectors. Then IF you have enough length in the wires (doesn't take much, half an inch should work?)? Take both ends of each wire and trim 1/8 inch off the insulation exposing the stranded wire (hopefully it is stranded wire?). Clean the ends of the wire, and slightly fan the strands. Place about a half inch to even two inch piece of small appropriate size heat shrink onto one of the wires. Then gently push the fanned ends of the wires together. Gently squeeze the overlapping ends tighter together if needed. Then solder using a good rosin core solder if you have or can get some. If you are careful, the blended and soldered area should be about the same diameter as the insulated wire itself. Slide the heat shrink tubing into place and shrink it. The final splice should be only the shrink tubing thickness larger than the original wire, and about an eighth inch shorter. I have used that method dozens of times in tight spaces. The shrink tubing adds a little bulk, but not much.

I certainly could be wrong. If a close enough size of 6 to 1 ratio is available. It may work just fine. Only way to know would be to get some and try it. Regardless, ABear, I always enjoy reading your comments and very much respect your opinions. Your insights on many technical issues are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Don't they always need more TLC than anticipated? Very nice car! I remember seeing it in the "Not Mine" section.

I agree that both are era after-market lamps. There were dozens of companies in the late 1910s and through the 1920s manufacturing and selling after-market combination brake and tail lamps. Many unusual things were offered. And more than a few had models with a place for an insert and offered automobile marques to be lit up like your "Maxwell" lamp. I don't know, but it might be possible that Chrysler could have offered such a lamp as an option of some sort? I suspect likely not. Walter P was phasing out the failed Maxwell name, replacing it with his own name. The style of that lamp suggests it to be mid 1920s (it is very similar to my 1927 Paige 6-45's factory original tail lamp), which would at closest put it at the very end of Maxwell. An after-market supplier would continue to offer name tags for recently defunct marques.

Not likely for an automobile. Has a much more industrial look to it. I have seen something very close to that in with industrial hardware. Never knew what its application was.

Fantastic! I had read previous comments about your needing to and working on it. Been wondering how it was coming along. Beautiful brass era car!

The problem is, that any shrink tubing large enough to go over the cross-ways end connector probably will not have enough shrinkage ratio. A 6 to 1 might make it. But I used to use a lot of shrink tubing, and anywhere near maximum shrink it often doesn't work well. And it does not like being forced over something almost small enough. Just my experience for whatever it is worth.