Spark Timing Issue 1953 Chrysler Windsor

[keithb7]

Hi folks, I am banging my head against the wall here today over my 1953 Chrysler Windsor. L6 flat head.

The car is new to me and I have been going over everything to check it for reliability and safety. I drove the 

car last night and it ran fine. I flashed it up this morning, backed out of my garage into my driveway and proceeded to pull

the spark plugs one at a time to inspect. While out, I cleaned them with a wire brush, set gap at .035 and re-installed.

I topped up the oil, set a couple drops on the alternator lube wick. Then proceeded to start the engine. The car

was then mis-firing and running like crap. I  double checked all my work, including spark plug wire placement

off the cap. All looks good. I then decided to buy all new plugs and installed them.

 

Same symptoms. Engine is getting fuel and will run, but rough. I then proceeded to pull distributor cap to inspect.

Looked great. Re-set points at .020"

I pulled all plugs and placed on them on the cylinder head to ground. Had helper turn over engine. All are firing. 

Have checked plug wires off distributor many times to ensure firing order is correct. 1,5,3,6,2,4. All are correct.

 

Pulled air filter assy to check all carb wires and linkage. all good. Engine is getting fuel and I can see it atomize in the

throttle body.

 

I am stumped. I did nothing but pull, clean, gap and re-install one plug at a time. I have triple checked my work

multiple times. Plug wires look new. Are clean, no wear spots, no fraying, are tight fitting and snap on the spark plugs.

I am convinced this is a spark/timing issue. I just can't wrap my head around what changed between pulling plugs and 

re-installing them.

 

I need to take a break and clear my head. I have the shop manual. Time to cool off and go read some more.

Any tips appreciated. Thanks, Keith 

 

 

[Bhigdog]

Start it up and short plugs to head one at a time. The one (s) that doesn't make it run even worse is where I'd start. I suppose there is always the possibility the timing gears/chain jumped a tooth when you started it up. Did you put a timing light on it?. Sometimes a dist cap develops carbon tracks between the contacts. Hard to see unless you know what to look for. If by miss firing you mean popping through the carb it's likely timing or cross firing..........Bob

Edited June 3, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[keithb7]

A few pics. If anyone happens to see anything wrong let me know. Thanks, Keith 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[keiser31]

If you readjusted the points, I would look at that again. They look a bit offset, to me.

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[D Yaros]

I recently had a similar situation and the cause turned out to be the primary coil wire.  Mine had an open and the engine would crank, but not fire or run.

[Spinneyhill]

Does the distributor cap have aluminium contacts? If so, check the centre carbon brush: they get loose and fall out of those caps. ....been there.

[keithb7]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am considering them all and checking things.

 

- Installed a full new set of spark plugs. No improvement.

- I just installed a full net set of plug wires with no improvement. 

- I double and triple checked my points gap

- I checked the distributor cap for a crack, it looks pretty new. No crack.

- Checked distributor for centre carbon brush, its there in place.

 

A coil could be a problem. However it was just fine.

I am a bit puzzled how everything was fine, the engine ran great, right up until I pulled the spark plugs, one at a time, inspected, cleaned and gapped them, then re-installed.

Then the timing trouble started.

 

You can hear it below here, if you are on Facebook. It sounds out of time to me. Which is weird, as I mentioned all was fine until plugs were pulled.

 

https://www.facebook.com/keith.barron.50/videos/10155483468417160/

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

but did you put a timing lite on it?.......................Bob

[keithb7]

 

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

but did you put a timing lite on it?.......................Bob

 

Bob, I can't keep it running long enough to get a timing light on it. I am going to recheck plug wires against TDC next and see what I find. 

I may have mixed up wires, already checked that,

but will check again. 

[Bhigdog]

8 hours ago, keithb7 said:

 

 

Bob, I can't keep it running long enough to get a timing light on it. I am going to recheck plug wires against TDC next and see what I find. 

I may have mixed up wires, already checked that,

but will check again. 

 

It really sounds like you have messed up the firing order. If not, place the timing mark at TDC and check if the rotor is aligned with #1 wire in cap. If not you have jumped time. That means your valve timing is off too which can be checked by seeing if #1 cylinder is at TDC when timing mark says it is....................Bob

Edited June 4, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Bob, how easy should this L6 engine turn by hand? All plugs are out. In neutral. Cannot turn by trying to turn crank pulley. Starter easily spins it. Difficult to get on TDC using starter. Maybe I need to pull the rad and get a breaker bar on front crank nut? Thx. 

[Bhigdog]

 If there is access to the flywheel a good way to turn the engine is with a large screw driver prying the starter ring gear around. Use the starter to get close and finish with the screw driver...........Bob

[Spinneyhill]

One way I have done it is to put the car in high gear and push it a few inches one way or the other. It only works if you are on a flat surface!

[JACK M]

16 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

One way I have done it is to put the car in high gear and push it a few inches one way or the other. It only works if you are on a flat surface!

 

Can that be done with fluid drive though?

I would think that if the belt is tight one should be able to yank on the fan.

[keithb7]

I looked at the starter and the rad. I decided to pull the rad. Had it drained and out in 10 mins. Will put a 1 5/8" socket on a 1/2" drive breaker bar on the crank nut to turn it to #1 TDC.

 

I understand I can confirm distributor timing by lining up TDC. Is there an easy way to check valve timing without pulling front crank pulley, and timing chain cover to inspect timing gear marks?

 

As it sits now. Off to go buy a 1 5/8" socket.

 

 

 

Thanks, Keith

Edited June 6, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

10 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

Is there an easy way to check valve timing without pulling front crank pulley, and timing chain cover to inspect timing gear marks?

Put a rod in the #1 spark plug hole. Rotate the engine until the rod goes no higher. That's TDC. The timing mark should agree. The rod movement is quite small as the piston approaches TDC. A dial indicator will show you the exact top of the rise (TDC). OTOH the timing chain and gears are quite accesable now..........Bob

[keithb7]

Alright, so with #1 piston at TDC, distributor rotor is pointed toward spark plug lead wire #1.  Crank pulley is labeled D.C. (Dead Centre I assume) at this position. Inserting pin in access hole at cylinder head #6 cylinder access confirms also. At this point #6 cylinder should be at top of exhaust stroke. I double checked, that when #6 cylinder is actually at TDC, rotor points to #6 wire position. That tells me ignition timing is correct. Spark plug wires are in proper positions. I have checked multiple times.

 

However...Something new to consider. While I took an hour off for dinner, I left the key switch in the run position by accident. Earlier, I was hitting to starter to get a visual on normal crank shaft rotation direction. Back after dinner by fluke, I touched and noticed the main ignition coil was quite warm.  I assume a result of leaving the key in the run position. Is this normal for the coil to get warm like this? Or is this a sign the coil has an internal short? A bad coil could be a reason for my poor running engine.

Edited June 6, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Good. That eliminates that. Next I'd change out the condenser, then the cap, points and finally the coil (least to most expensive). Isn't much left after that.....................Bob

[keithb7]

Thanks for your help Bob. I appreciate it. The '53 Windsor Deluxe is new to me. I am learning of all it little quirks. Do you own, or have previously owned the 265 C.I. L6 Chrysler engine? I am hoping to find a reliable support group, as I know of no other owners currently.

 

I am noticing a fair bit of play in the distributor. The cam for the points is pretty worn. Bushings are little sloppier than I'd prefer. A new Distributor is something I will have to consider down the road. The car did run, as it is, as mentioned.

 

Regarding the comment I made earlier about the camshaft timing being out. I got to thinking further about that. I suppose if it were out, even 1

tooth, I would probably have very low compression readings. I did test a few cylinders, not all, yesterday and noticed I was a little low at 90 PSI. Seems to me, 90 indicates it's getting tired. Due to the dish in the head casting, it is very difficult to get a wrench around my compression test hose to get a good seal. I plan to buy a coupling to use on the hose so I can tighten it up properly. Then obtain accurate readings.

Edited June 6, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Can you mark the vibration damper or something and put a timing light on it? You might see the timing wandering around if the distributor is worn. I fixed that by rebushing the distributor and hard chroming the shaft to build it up a bit. The other thing is to check the dwell if the distributor cam lobes are worn. You may need to set the points gap a little wider to get the correct dwell.

[hchris]

8 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Alright, so with #1 piston at TDC, distributor rotor is pointed toward spark plug lead wire #1.  Crank pulley is labeled D.C. (Dead Centre I assume) at this position. Inserting pin in access hole at cylinder head #6 cylinder access confirms also. At this point #6 cylinder should be at top of exhaust stroke. I double checked, that when #6 cylinder is actually at TDC, rotor points to #6 wire position. That tells me ignition timing is correct. Spark plug wires are in proper positions. I have checked multiple times.

 

However...Something new to consider. While I took an hour off for dinner, I left the key switch in the run position by accident. Earlier, I was hitting to starter to get a visual on normal crank shaft rotation direction. Back after dinner by fluke, I touched and noticed the main ignition coil was quite warm.  I assume a result of leaving the key in the run position. Is this normal for the coil to get warm like this? Or is this a sign the coil has an internal short? A bad coil could be a reason for my poor running engine.

 

" I touched and noticed the main ignition coil was quite warm.  I assume a result of leaving the key in the run position. Is this normal for the coil to get warm like this? Or is this a sign the coil has an internal short?"

 

Leaving the power on will mean that the battery  current will be flowing through the coil continuously, a coil is exactly that, a coil of wire which will get hot just like the old bar radiators when power passes through; if the points happened to be closed then, they and the condenser, will also heat up; given that these components are designed to switch on and off, constant current flow is not good for them.

 

Given all you have done so far, I would try another condenser and see what happens, jumped timing etc. would not be on my list of probable cause given that it ran well? prior to you touching the ignition system.

[c49er]

Geez...

To turn the engine over with the fan...

Make sure the belt is tightened properly....push down on the belt with your right thumb firmly.....pull top fan blade towards you...

I do it all the time on all sizes of the MoPar flatheads...

[JACK M]

9 minutes ago, c49er said:

Geez...

To turn the engine over with the fan...

Make sure the belt is tightened properly....push down on the belt with your right thumb firmly.....pull top fan blade towards you...

I do it all the time on all sizes of the MoPar flatheads...

 

I agree.

[ols car dog]

Are you sure that the dist. turns the way you have your wires  set up?

had the same issue on a 1988 ram charger years ago arrow on intake manifold was not the way dist. turned.

 

 

[keithb7]

Regarding turning engine by fan: The car is new to me. I have never owned a vintage car in the past. I posted the question on Sunday about turning the motor by hand. It took until today, Tuesday to get confirmation. I wanted to move ahead so I did what I needed to, to safely turn the engine over by hand based on what I knew at the time. I have read of instances where too tight of a belt will cause premature wear on generator bearings/bushings. Was easy to pull the rad anyway. Plus all my timing marks had new black paint on there and I could not see them. With the rad out, no problem cleaning the area up with a wire brush. No regrets. Sure is nice having lots of access to the area being worked on. 

 

Rotor is turning proper direction as wires are plugged in to cap. 

 

I have new points and condensor in hand now. Will install in a few hours and attempt to fire up engine again. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

New points installed and set to .020".  New condenser installed.  New spark plugs installed. New Plug wires installed.  Crank aligned at #1 TDC and rotor pointed to distributor plug wire #1.

No improvement. Feels and runs the same as before when I started this exercise.  Engine will run but rough sounds out of time.

 

Pulled distributor lock bolt so I could turn distributor past its adjustable range. Retarding timing engine ran worse. Advancing distributor past adjustable range with bolt in place, made no

noticeable difference from when I began 2 days ago. Checked plug wire firing order again. 1,5,3,6,2,4. All correct. Other than the coil, not sure what's left to swap out. Cap and rotor look great.

Any tips appreciated.

[keithb7]

2 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Double Post  

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[c49er]

You need to do a compression test.... throttle held wide open.

[keithb7]

Will plan to do compression test C49er. I need to pick up a few adaptors for my compression gage. Is the intent of the compression test to determine if valve timing is out?  

 

Reading the manual tonight there is little mention of getting the crank pulley off. I was thinking impact for bolt, followed by puller. 

Would the pulley center bolt be RH or LH thread? Thanks. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Curti]

8 hours ago, c49er said:

You need to do a compression test.... throttle held wide open.

Why does the throttle need to be wide open?

[keithb7]

My understanding is all plugs shoud be out. Wide open throttle. Fully charged battery. That way you pull in the most air possible to obtain an accurate reading. 

 

I was thinking I need to do 2 compression tests. 1 dry and record the results.  Second time,  dropping some oil in each cylinder right before testing each cylinder. If the compression reading does not improve with oil in cylinder, this would indicate a valve sealing problem. Or a valve timing problem maybe. 

 

The concern I have is somehow getting the oil past the valve and over to the cylinder. Looking down the spark plug hole, its right over the valves. Maybe a small piece of hose and a syringe? Insert hose, direct over cylinder and insert a few teaspoons of oil? 

Edited June 7, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[c49er]

I stated to do a compression test just to see if you have a real low reading cylinder and maybe that was the cause IE a stuck valve?

I would just do a quick and simple with out adding oil. I never do.

If you have a low one you have enough trouble.... adding oil and raising the compression reading usually means bad rings .... meaning engine rebuild time.

[keithb7]

Compression test to come tonight. Darn day job takes all my time. 

 

I thought of another point I'll have to consider. Valve lash and valve seating. 

 

Since purchasing the car in May, I've heard an exhast leak. Simlar to what I've heard when exhaust manifold gaskets are leaking.  That pop-pop noise. I spent a little time trying to locate the leak. I torqued all intake and exh manifold hardware. I searched for manifold cracks. Signs of exhaust soot were not found anywhere. I checked exhust from manifold thru to muffler, not finding any signs of a leak. If an exhast valve were not sealing properly, I assume it might sound like what I am hearing. How this realates to my initial complaint, after changing plugs stumps me. However, the exhaust noise was there before I touched the spark plugs initially. 

 

Looking forward to getting the compression test done. More to come ASAP.  Thanks for all your comments and assistance so far. 

[Spinneyhill]

Are you sure the pop-pop noise is exhaust? I had a stuck exhaust valve and it popped through the carb. It blew all the mixture back out of the inlet manifold from that end of the engine. Compression test (dry, forget about the "wet" test for diagnostic purposes at the moment) will show if you have a stuck valve. Forget about throttle position with the compression test too, you are looking for stuck valves and that won't matter.

 

Is 0.035" the correct spark plug gap? Seems a little wide to me.

 

the fact that it was running well then suddenly was not would indicate something changed suddenly. What did you do to the car before the sudden change?

 

Have you checked the float level and the needle and seat? It is possible there is a speck of dirt in the needle, making it flood. Make sure the float floats.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Spinnyhill, that's the magic question. What did I do to the car before this happened? It makes no sense so far, and I've re-traced my steps many times. 

 

I got up Sat morning. Stared the car normally in my garage. Ran fine. Backed it out. Turned it off. Pulled spark plugs to inspect. Cleaned and gapped them. Reinstalled. Topped up oil and put 3-4 drops from my dipstick on the generator bearing wick. 

 

That's it. I fired up the car and it ran with a bad miss ever since. 

 

I'm driving myself bonky trying to sort it out. New plugs, new wires, new points, new condensor, checked distributor timing, checked all wiring, firing order, rotor and cap. No improvements.  

[Spinneyhill]

Just a spot of advice drummed into me by my first boss. DON"T recheck things over and over. You will be rehearsing the same mistake each time, if there was one. Find another way to check. As a surveyor, I used different units sometimes (we worked in metres, the cloth tape had feet on the other side). Explain it to someone else who doesn't understand (e.g. my wife); you will soon find out if you understand it!

 

It seems to me something that affects the entire engine has happened. Plugs, no. Plug leads, no (shouldn't affect the ability to keep it running). Coil lead, possibly: is it secure at each end? you have cleaned and tightened ignition connections, esp. those you might have dislodged in the original work. Swapping the condensor should have made sure it was properly grounded.

 

Would a coil fail suddenly like that? I wouldn't leap there yet.

 

Check the needle and seat. Do the diagnostic compression test. Do diagnostic tests and lay off replacing stuff for the moment. I can't imagine a valve would stick suddenly after running well. Do a vacuum test.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Dry compression test results:

 

1 - 95 psi

2 - 70 psi

3-  95 psi

4 - 85 psi

5 - 0 psi

6 - 0 psi

 

The 4 cylinders that did make compression are all low. Spec is 120 to 150 psi.

Well that's certainly interesting. Next step? Pull head off to investigate further, or pull timing cover to inspect timing chain and can timing? Pull valve covers on side of block to investigate?

Low psi across the board, has me thinking timing chain.  Just my gut. Will wait for your replies.

 

Last week the car ran good, car started easily. Car made power, burned no oil. Ran Clean and responsive. 

[keiser31]

Prior to removing the cylinder head, try taking the side valve covers off and checking to see if there is a stuck valve or two. It will be easier to tell that way than removing the head. Sounds more like stuck valves, to me, but I could certainly be wrong.

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Keiser31, yes I found a valve stuck open.  As mentioned this is old car new to me. Now I need to figure out how to tackle this.  Back to more research in the manual.

Tips are welcome about tackling this problem. Thx.

 

[keiser31]

Sounds like you need to get one of these....and remove the valves and head for a valve job....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Duro-Chrome-CF-49A-Flat-Head-Valve-Spring-Tool-made-in-USA-/222531794715?hash=item33cfedb71b:g:Yt4AAOSwq1JZMG7r

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)