Plans to create correct looking tires for 65 Riviera

[Seafoam65]

                   I am going to be returning to the Buick nationals for point judging with my 65 Riviera either in 2018

or 2019, and I am planning to have some tires made that will hopefully result in  no  points deductions, as my current redline radial

tires cost me a Gold award last time out. Nobody makes an 8.45-15 bias ply tire, let alone an 8.45-15 tire with a triple

whitewall. Gordon Wolfgang had Diamondback make some triple whitewall 225-75R15 radials for his car and they look very nice, but he

got some points deducted for having radials on his car at the Buick Nats in Springfield, Missouri in 2015. What I plan to do is buy

a set of blackwall 760-15 radials from Coker tire that are designed to look like bias plies with the exact same bias ply tread pattern and pie

crust sidewalls as the original tires back in 65. The only difference between the 845-15 and the 760-15 is that the tread part of the tire is slightly

narrower on the 760-15. Diameter and overall width of the tire is identical. Next I am going to have these Coker tires shipped to Diamondback

to have them install a triple stripe whitewall on the side of the tires. When this is done,  I should have tires that appear absolutely correct, but

that still offer good handling on the highway. It will not be possible to prove they are 760-15's or that they are radials because the size and other lettering will not be printed on the sidewall

after Diamondback does their thing. It will be a while before I do this, but I'll post some pics when I get this done and get them mounted.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Black River]

Yep, it's tough (and expensive) going the all original route.  You'd think they'd have provisions for a "closest part available" when exact repos aren't made......

 

Lucas

[KongaMan]

If I understand the judging correctly, an incorrect tire costs one or two points per tire (one point each for type and size; do they deduct for both if you have radials?).  That's 5 or 10 points, if you count the spare.  A Gold award is 385 out of points (or 15 points in deductions).  Which is to say that you could still get a gold award with radials.  Perhaps there's an easier and more economical route to the Gold award.

 

Am I missing something here?

[JZRIV]

Incorrect tires are not a mandatory deduction so a Gold Senior (390 or better) is still possible with incorrect tires. Its 1 point per tire so that's 5 point potential loss.

 

As far as size and stripe type, if no reproduction tire is available in the correct size or stripe, they may not dock you as long as you can prove it (but I could be wrong on this)  If the tire "appears" correct and there is no size molded into the outside, I don't see how they can dock you for wrong size.

 

That's a boat load of money to save 5 points Winston. Is it possible the rest of the car is in ship-shape and you could accept the 5 point deduction with good chance of getting Senior.

 

Have you spoken with DB about your plans?

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[msdminc]

Winston, I only lost 8 points for tires.  2 per corner, and since I had the cover on my spare I didn't lose anything for the spare.  I missed Senior Gold by one point.  I had 384 points, and you need 385 for Senior Gold.  1 Point because the tires was a radial per tire, and 1 Point because the tires were metric sizing per tire for 8 points off.  My DB triple white tires have the tire sizing information on the inside of the tire, but they can still be seen when looking under the car. Lost one for the non-cogged fan belts, 2 for the wrong tail pipe angle, 2 for an improper lift on the rear springs, a small dent on my drivers side front bumper guard, and two because I covered the trunk card boards with a black vinyl.  

 

I have changed the card boards, removed the spring lifts, got a better bumper guard - so I improved 5 points which should get me into the money, but if there was a way to get 8 more points with bias ply correct non metric sized tires, anything else they may find when judging should be over come.  It would be good to have a comfortable margin.  Winston, I know it might be expensive, but it is something I would strongly consider too.

 

I cannot recall his name right now, but I ran into someone in St Charles or Williamsburg at the ROA events that had got some built the way you describe, not sure if he started with Coker, I seem to remember that he actually started with a bias ply of some sort.  Never saw them, but they sounded good to me.

 

Rock On

 

gord

[RivNut]

Interesting comments.  Especially considering that one of the most obvious items on your car was over looked by the judges. ?  However, I agree with your choice, it just looks better as you have it.

 

Ed

Edited February 20, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

               I haven't talked to Diamondback yet, but I know someone else that did something similar for another make of car.

It isn't  totally about the point judging........I want my car to look as original as possible since it is such an unmolested original car

to begin with. I know it will be expensive but I think it will be worth it. When you are dealing with only 16 points  to cost you a Gold,

the no points deducted for the tires gives you a pretty good margin of safety for other nitpicky things that they may see. One problem

I have is that my undercarriage is original and unmolested and I will lose some points there. It is easier and cheaper to get the

right tires on it then to spend a 100 hours detailing the undercarriage. The undercarriage on my car looks like a daily driver would have looked

in 1967, and I  really want it to look like it did back in the 60's, not overrestored.  Gordon, I lost 12 points

due to my tires because I lost 8 points for radials and 4 points for having red line tires. Also, if there are

any markings on the inside sidewall of the tires to give them away, I will make them disappear with a 

disc sander.

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

2 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

The undercarriage on my car looks like a daily driver would have looked in 1967, and I  really want it to look like it did back in the 60's, not overrestored.

 

X2

[Black River]

I wonder if a guy could buy the "proper" tires without the size on them in blackwall, and mask off his own triple lines and use one of the white wall paint kits that are sold on ebay.  I've seen good reviews on them on some other forums, but only from guys making their own wide whites.  I don't see a reason you couldn't make your own.  Just a thought...... Here's a link to ebay and the paint kits http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=white+wall+tire+paint+kit&_osacat=6000&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=white+wall+tire+paint&_sacat=6000

 

Lucas

[KongaMan]

48 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Interesting comments.  Especially considering that one of the most obvious items on your car was over looked by the judges. ?

 

But that's the thing -- don't different judges see different things?  There's no guarantee that the next guy won't ding you for something else.

[KongaMan]

4 minutes ago, Black River said:

I wonder if a guy could buy the "proper" tires without the size on them in blackwall, and mask off his own triple lines and use one of the white wall paint kits that are sold on ebay.  I've seen good reviews on them on some other forums, but only from guys making their own wide whites.  I don't see a reason you couldn't make your own.

 

 

 

Stick the wheel on a spin balancer and hold the brush steady.  Or jack up the rear end and put it in gear.

[Black River]

2 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

 

Stick the wheel on a spin balancer and hold the brush steady.  Or jack up the rear end and put it in gear.

Yep, I've striped motorcycle rims that way.  Just have to watch out for an out of round tire or rim. They all seem to have a little runout on them.

 

Lucas

[msdminc]

KnongaMan that is why getting as much clearance over 385 is my goal.  A judge, like home inspectors, are paid to Find Things.  They will find something else, and we know nothing is perfect.  

 

Rock On

 

gord

[Rivman]

16 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

 

But that's the thing -- don't different judges see different things?  There's no guarantee that the next guy won't ding you for something else.

This is very true! The judging is pretty much subjective, I think so anyway.

 

I took 2 of mine to Concord in 2012, it was my late model cars, but all I have ready at this time.

 

I figured on around 12 points of deductions for my '95 and they only took 4 points, and the Silver Arrow lost 1 more.

 

I know a few people into the judging at the BCA and they have told me at the judges' meetings they are instructed "not to kill the car", possibly why mine didn't lose as many points as I figured it would?

 

I know Ship is a bit more into the judging than I am, but I believe it is 385 and above for "Gold", and 390 and above, with NO mandatory deductions, for "Gold Senior".

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, msdminc said:

Winston, I only lost 8 points for tires.  2 per corner, and since I had the cover on my spare I didn't lose anything for the spare.  I missed Senior Gold by one point.  I had 384 points, and you need 385 for Senior Gold.  1 Point because the tires was a radial per tire, and 1 Point because the tires were metric sizing per tire for 8 points off.  My DB triple white tires have the tire sizing information on the inside of the tire, but they can still be seen when looking under the car. Lost one for the non-cogged fan belts, 2 for the wrong tail pipe angle, 2 for an improper lift on the rear springs, a small dent on my drivers side front bumper guard, and two because I covered the trunk card boards with a black vinyl.  

 

I have changed the card boards, removed the spring lifts, got a better bumper guard - so I improved 5 points which should get me into the money, but if there was a way to get 8 more points with bias ply correct non metric sized tires, anything else they may find when judging should be over come.  It would be good to have a comfortable margin.  Winston, I know it might be expensive, but it is something I would strongly consider too.

 

I cannot recall his name right now, but I ran into someone in St Charles or Williamsburg at the ROA events that had got some built the way you describe, not sure if he started with Coker, I seem to remember that he actually started with a bias ply of some sort.  Never saw them, but they sounded good to me.

 

Rock On

 

gord

Hi Gordon,

  Did they deduct points for the incorrect trunk lock cover? Just curious, I dont know how detailed the judging knowledge is, never had one judged.

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

5 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                   I am going to be returning to the Buick nationals for point judging with my 65 Riviera either in 2018

or 2019, and I am planning to have some tires made that will hopefully result in  no  points deductions, as my current redline radial

tires cost me a Gold award last time out. Nobody makes an 8.45-15 bias ply tire, let alone an 8.45-15 tire with a triple

whitewall. Gordon Wolfgang had Diamondback make some triple whitewall 225-75R15 radials for his car and they look very nice, but he

got some points deducted for having radials on his car at the Buick Nats in Springfield, Missouri in 2015. What I plan to do is buy

a set of blackwall 760-15 radials from Coker tire that are designed to look like bias plies with the exact same bias ply tread pattern and pie

crust sidewalls as the original tires back in 65. The only difference between the 845-15 and the 760-15 is that the tread part of the tire is slightly

narrower on the 760-15. Diameter and overall width of the tire is identical. Next I am going to have these Coker tires shipped to Diamondback

to have them install a triple stripe whitewall on the side of the tires. When this is done,  I should have tires that appear absolutely correct, but

that still offer good handling on the highway. It will not be possible to prove they are 760-15's or that they are radials because the size and other lettering will not be printed on the sidewall

after Diamondback does their thing. It will be a while before I do this, but I'll post some pics when I get this done and get them mounted.

Winston,

  Dont know if it will help you pick a tire to start with but just an FYI, Buick installed tires from two manufacturers in `65. One has the sidewall scallop, the other does not. I know it is subjective,but my preference is the smooth sidewall because IMO, the scalloped tires look both dated and much like truck tires. Again, just another opinion...

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

4 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Incorrect tires are not a mandatory deduction so a Gold Senior (390 or better) is still possible with incorrect tires. Its 1 point per tire so that's 5 point potential loss.

 

As far as size and stripe type, if no reproduction tire is available in the correct size or stripe, they may not dock you as long as you can prove it (but I could be wrong on this)  If the tire "appears" correct and there is no size molded into the outside, I don't see how they can dock you for wrong size.

 

That's a boat load of money to save 5 points Winston. Is it possible the rest of the car is in ship-shape and you could accept the 5 point deduction with good chance of getting Senior.

 

Have you spoken with DB about your plans?

 

Jason,

 Can the judges deduct points BECAUSE there are no sidewall markings as the original tires? I`m not very familiar with the judging process..

  Tom

[Seafoam65]

22 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Winston,

  Dont know if it will help you pick a tire to start with but just an FYI, Buick installed tires from two manufacturers in `65. One has the sidewall scallop, the other does not. I know it is subjective,but my preference is the smooth sidewall because IMO, the scalloped tires look both dated and much like truck tires. Again, just another opinion...

  Tom

                 Tom there is only 1 bias ply appearing radial made to fit my car so I have no options on the  pie crust

scallops. I still have the original spare tire from my car and it is a triple stripe 845- 15 Firestone Deluxe Champion. It has

a ribbed pattern on the outer edge of the sidewall, kind of like a very fine scalloping with the scallops very close together.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

21 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

                 Tom there is only 1 bias ply appearing radial made to fit my car so I have no options on the  pie crust

scallops. I still have the original spare tire from my car and it is a triple stripe 845- 15 Firestone Deluxe Champion. It has

a ribbed pattern on the outer edge of the sidewall, kind of like a very fine scalloping with the scallops very close together.

Some pics I have on my laptop...I have many more original tires including mint spares....

[1965rivgs]

More....

[msdminc]

Tom no deduction for the trunk lock cover.  If there are no markings on the outside they don't deduct.  It is more of a can deduct than do deduct.

 

Rock On

 

gord

[1965rivgs]

16 minutes ago, msdminc said:

Tom no deduction for the trunk lock cover.  If there are no markings on the outside they don't deduct.  It is more of a can deduct than do deduct.

 

Rock On

 

gord

Thanks Gordon. Dont want to potentially hi jack this thread because it is about original tires so I will PM you, thanks,

  Tom

[JanZverina]

Somewhere many moons ago I read an article in which Bill Mitchell berated some first-gen Riviera owner at a concours or car show for having radial tires on his car, which Mitchell said completely spoiled the overall balance of his (and Ned's) beautiful design. Yes, having a bone stock restoration not only costs big $$ but can compromise safety these days. Oh well, it's often a choice between a trailer queen and a car one can enjoy on the road. I'll take the latter any day -- but I also understand and appreciate the former.

   

[Seafoam65]

1 hour ago, JanZverina said:

Somewhere many moons ago I read an article in which Bill Mitchell berated some first-gen Riviera owner at a concours or car show for having radial tires on his car, which Mitchell said completely spoiled the overall balance of his (and Ned's) beautiful design. Yes, having a bone stock restoration not only costs big $$ but can compromise safety these days. Oh well, it's often a choice between a trailer queen and a car one can enjoy on the road. I'll take the latter any day -- but I also understand and appreciate the former.

   

              Jan, since the tires I am going to use look like bias plies but are in fact radial tires, I intend to have my cake and eat it too!  Tom........the pics of the Firestone Deluxe Champions you posted match my original spare tire exactly!

Edited February 21, 2017 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

10 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Jason,

 Can the judges deduct points BECAUSE there are no sidewall markings as the original tires? I`m not very familiar with the judging process..

  Tom

Tom,

The judging manual is not specific when it comes to markings on the tire.It states correct bias or radial, and size and whitewall type but nothing about markings.

 

As Gord pointed out he lost 2 points each for type and size. Checking the judging manual, if a deduction is given for an incorrect tire type it must also be given for size which is two points. It goes on to say that if the correct size is not available, the next closest size up or down may be used without deduction. This would leave the door open to subjectivity by the judge.

 

If the Bias look radial Winston is considering sells as a bias tire to the judge, at most he would only lose 1 point per tire if there was a conflict or misunderstanding on size. He would want to have a tire reference size chart to show the 7.60x15 in 1950s sizing crosses close to an 8.45 in 65 sizing.  Coker makes an 8.40x15 so that could be perceived by a judge as the "next closest" size available but in actual dimensions, it is probably farther away from the 8.45 vs the 7.60. Tire size conversion/reference charts are general. Have to study actual tire specification. Its too complicated.

Early Riviera owners we are forced to buy incorrect size tires if we want to try and avoid point deductions at a BCA show. This is not always a good idea for functionality, aesthetics and safety if the car is actually driven. Reference the recent 69 GS posted that had 9.00x15 3 stripes. Close numerically to the 8.45 but looked silly and are so much larger in diameter the speedo would be off quite a bit. It probably handled like a 1940 Dodge truck.

[rodneybeauchamp]

Winston,

maybe the solution to both correct tyre and finance might be to have two sets of wheels, a daily driver set with red lines or your choice. The other set could be a set of original tyres from that era on another set of rims. The spare in mine had an original tyre and rim ( but not for a Riviera) but I'm sure with a bit of looking you could round up enough matching tyres for a set. Just change them out at the meet before judging begins. No points deducted at all. Just don't drive too far on 50 year old tyres ( but gee, we used to as teenagers, cos that's all we could afford!?

[RivNut]

In 63 and 64, there was the standard 7.10 X 15 and the optional 7.60 X 15.  Weren't there also two sizes available in 65?  Also the 7.10 X 15 tire came on a 5.5 inch wide wheel and the 7.60 X 15 tire came on a 6 inch wheel.  Was this also the same in 65?  

[RivNut]

I know that the industry revised the way tires were sized between 1964 and 1965. Can anyone tell me what the difference is?  The accompanying chart shows equivalent sizing for the many different sizes over the years.  The 8.45 for 1965 looks to fall somewhere between the 7.10 and the 7.60 from the 64 and prior years.

 

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/45_conversionchart.jsp

[msdminc]

Ed, the White Sidewall Tires F1 Code (incidentally for $43.32) size was 8.45x15.  Not sure what the standard ones were.

 

Rock On

 

gord

[Seafoam65]

                 The standard tires were 8.45 blackwall. The optional tires were 8.45 triple whitewalls, which were either

Goodyear  Power Cushions or Firestone Deluxe Champions. There were no other tires offered in 65, and all rims were 15x6 inches.  

[RivNut]

Winston,  I just found this chart on the ROA's website.  It shows the optional sized tire for 1965 to be an 8.85 x 15.

 

http://rivowners.org/features/Ev_Stats/dimensions.html  

 

So when a judge looks at a '63 or '64 to determine if the tire size is correct, does he also look to see that the accompanying wheel is also the correct size?

 

PS - the chart could very well be wrong. I know that my '63 had the oversized tires on it, code T4 "oversized white sidewall tire - $59.99".  Says so right on my window sticker.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

               Well it sure  looks like the 8.85 was an option. I don't know why it would be listed in the chart

if that were not the case.  

[RivNut]

Just now, Seafoam65 said:

               Well it sure  looks like the 8.85 was an option. I don't know why it would be listed in the chart

if that were not the case.  

I think the chart is wrong, but I just wanted to raise the level of concern.  LOL  

 

In Darwin Falks series of articles on the '65 he states (and I've copied and pasted this)

As far as tires go, a whopping 96.75%, (33,463 vehicles) chose whitewall tires; only 1,133 Rivieras left the factory in blackwalls. The tires were all 8.45x15, though 422 Rivieras did get special 4-ply tires for export.

 

There are many things on this website that were made up a long time ago, way before we have the info that we now have.  But the entire charts are shown, not the individual entries so it's really hard to get changes made.  In order to get the 1963 - 1965 Fisher Body Plate Codes changed, I had to completely re-type the entire page, It wasn't possible to change just any one line item.

 

Ed
 

[Seafoam65]

                I was looking on Coker tire's website, and was comparing the specs on a 760-15 that they sell to

an 8.55-15 that they sell. On both tires, tread width is five inches, section width is 7.90 inches and diameter

is 28.66 inches. I measured the original triple white wall 8.45 -15 tire that is the original spare tire for my car and the

tire measures 28.66 inches in diameter, 7.90 section width and 5.2 inches in tread width. Virtually identical!  Those 7.60-15

bias look radial tires should look correct as hell when I get them mounted with the triple whitewall conversion.

[RivNut]

If you take a look at the Tire Rack link that I posted previously, you'll notice that there are the 1949 - 1964 tires and the 1965 - 1970 tires.  The only difference in the two series is not the size but the designation.  Has anyone figured out why the designations Changed?

 

Ed

[RivNut]

I was doing a Google search for "8.45 x 15" tires and discovered that some 67 and 68 Thunderbirds equipped with a/c came with this size tire.  I wonder what the Thunderbird collectors are doing for their cars?

[Seafoam65]

                 Ed, the judges are so impressed that a Ford T-bird that age is still running that you get a perfect score just for

driving it on the show field under it's own power, regardless of tire size!

[RivNut]

11 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

                 Ed, the judges are so impressed that a Ford T-bird that age is still running that you get a perfect score just for

driving it on the show field under it's own power, regardless of tire size!

ROFLMAO?

[1965rivgs]

7 hours ago, RivNut said:

In 63 and 64, there was the standard 7.10 X 15 and the optional 7.60 X 15.  Weren't there also two sizes available in 65?  Also the 7.10 X 15 tire came on a 5.5 inch wide wheel and the 7.60 X 15 tire came on a 6 inch wheel.  Was this also the same in 65?  

NO...no oversize tire option for the Riviera in `65

  Tom Mooney

[jframe]

I am DEFINITELY no expert, but the factory 1965 service manual says in Section 0, Page 8 that 8.85X15 was an optional tire size on the Riviera. Creates more confusion. I think a set of bias ply look radials would look great on my 65 someday, just want the correst size, or something close.