Starting issues today, what's you opinion?

My 57 nailhead has developed a problem and it seems to be getting worse. My Buick has a auxiliary push button to engage the starter. When I push to start the engine it starts and the starter is still partially engaged. If I just tap it real quick it will stop the engagement. I don't think the button is sticking. More likely I think the solenoid is sticking. I'm not sure it is the starter. It seems to have plenty of power, but it just won't stop when I let go of the button. As far as I know there isn't a need to oil anything with the starter or solenoid is there? If it were you would you just replace the solenoid? If so, does anyone happen to know of the part number from NAPA? Just in case I get one of those guys that is 20 or so years old.

Darren

Just take your existing solenoid apart. Polish the big contactor up real nice, check the pivot in for wear or drag, and make sure the spring has tension.

You spelled solenoid right; you're way ahead of a lot of them.

Bernie

I am not sure on these cars but some solenoids are built so you can remove and flip the contact plate over for a fresh surface. The brass post/studs may also need a little filing. As for sticking, like Bernie said.

You have a bad starter relay or something causing a low voltage conditions leading to sticking solenoid. See my website under tech tips then relays (http://www.buickrestorer.com/relays.html )

Willie

Heck, I didn't know there was a relay feeding the solenoid! I'll start there. Where should I be able to find this if it hasn't been relocated over the years? Willie, the relay from carquest, was it close in appearance to the original?

Darren

TeamBuick has an online manual for your car if you don't have one: http://www.teambuick.com/reference/library/57_chassis/10-a.php

The relay looks like other relays (horn relay, etc) and is usually on the drivers side inner fender. Trace the wires back from the solenoid: large cable, yellow wire which bypasses the ballast resistor during starting and a black wire which goes to the starter relay. Also a green wire from the voltage regulator goes to the starter relay.

The carquest one looks nearly the same, but the top is unpainted and does not have 'Delco' embossed....the old top will probably fit.

Willie

Well I made it to carquest yesterday to order the starter relay. I had no idea it had a starter relay, and neither did the gent at carquest. He thought I was referring to the solenoid. Good thing I had the part number because he didn't show one available for the 57. He looked the part number up and low and behold there it was, discontinued! He found one in Iowa so it's on its way, $33 though! Ouch! But it'll be an easier fix compared to a starter overhaul. Hopefully I get it in a few days. I think I might see if I can refurbish the old one and keep it for a spare. It's a bummer not being able to drive her this time of year.

Today I had hoped to get the Buick back on the road again. I finally found some time to mess around with it. I replaced the starter relay and the starter is still wanting to stay engaged. I suppose I'll have to find time now to look the solenoid over. If that's not the problem I'm at a loss. I really miss taking it to church on Sundays and the occasional evening drive.

I would take a new look at that button. If it's like the cheesy one I recently bought I would bet it is that, not the solenoid. At any rate it is easier to test that than to drop that starter. Just disconnect the two wires and touch the bare ends together during start mode. If your starter acts properly then I'd look for a better button. Or, I'd go back to the switch on the carb, which has been very reliable on my 56

Be sure your battery is good. A low voltage condition will cause sticking of the solenoid and run on of the starter. The usual cause of a low voltage condition is the starter relay...you replaced that. Look at all connections and cables in addition to the battery. If all check out, the starter with solenoid needs to go in for testing/repair.

Willie

OK Newbee: Here we go again with "INTERNET DIAGNOSIS". I am not a mechanic nor claim to be. A few of the suggestions thrown out might work. What I don't see happening here is a proper diagnostic procedure which is a process of isolation. You must start with one end of the system and clear it before you get to the next part. Yes, first check the battery thoroughly. You need to do a specific gravity test, a slow 2 amp float charge, a load test first burning off the surface charge, check the terminals and if called for, do a rain dance. Once the battery is deemed operable it's the next component. Guess what? I might have missed something on the battery too. Also, determine why the battery (if it's bad) failed. First things first. NEVER just replace parts. That's a lousy suggestion and I might get plenty of flack for saying this but this is the only real way to solve and properly fix the issue your vehicle is having.

Well I'm still chasing down this problem of mine. I had a little time to mess around with it yesterday. Taking some direction from the service manual I believe I eliminated the starter relay. I know the battery if fine. The starter button (no starter switch at the carb) seems to be working as it should. The starter stops cranking when I release the button every time. Only when the engine starts does the starter remain cranking. I followed a trouble shoot in the book that states to run a jumper to the generator A post to a negative ground. I proceeded to start the engine and this has solved the continued starter engagement. The problem now is, I don't know what I did or what I just figured out. I have read the procedure several times and I'm just not getting it. Can someone explain this in another way that I may understand.

Can you scan the page that says this? I don't get it either.

Lets see if that worked.

57buick.pdf

Attachment that was sent. Go to view and rotate; I can't get it to stay rotated.

Anyhow it seems that Darren is troubleshooting 'failure to crank' problems, which have nothing to do with run-on of the starter. If the starter button is shown to be good and that circuit is NOT still connected to the carb switch, then there is a persistent ground in the generator or voltage regulator after starting or a wiring problem like a short to ground or incorrect wiring attachments.

Willie

Well I’m glad I’m not the onlyone that thinks this whole thing is stupid. I wish this 57 service manual hadpage numbers to begin with. If you take a look at the additional scan that Isent you, under ( b. Engine will not stop cranking) I performed step 1. Theengine does stop cranking. So at the end of step 1 it says to “See paragraph10-9” which is the two pages I sent you yesterday which lists all kinds ofattempts to figure out the problem. My starter relay seems to be fine, not tomention the relay is a different one and it still allows the engine to keepcranking after the engine is functionally running.

OK, attached is all I got from you. The book does take you in circles. Look at post #15 again or call me for additional explanation. It may be time to substitute a known good generator and voltage regulator and/or a known good battery. If problem persists, then check wire integrity or substitute a new wire for each circuit until the problem resolves.

Willie

For what it's worth, I'm suspecting worn out generator brushes and dirty commutator as the source of your problem. Brush replacement was a not so uncommon practice on cars of the fifties and prior. Check your owner or shop manual maintenance schedule and it probably makes mention of this. But just for the hellovit, spray some electrical contact cleaner on the brushes and commutator and see if it has any effect. Try the simple stuff first.

The biggest problem with the shop manual (when used today) is that now the car has been monkeyed with for 60 years. It probably doesn't mention an auxiliary starter button.

You'll get it.

I'm curious as to why the oem switch is not being used. It's still there, but I don't know if the internals are working. It's hard to see how it works according to the pictures. I might investigate as I'm tooling around the motor compartment anyway.

Leave the carb switch alone for now. If I had to bet at this point, I would pick a defective generator since the system finds ground through the generator that goes away after it starts charging...it is charging isn't it(?)

There is a chance that the starter bendix gear and shaft is gummed up and not returning correctly when the switch is released. While not a fun job, it is an easy fix to just clean up the armature shaft where the bendix slides back and forth. This should not be lubricated, but I have seen situations where they have been and dirt mixed with the lubricant causes sticking.

Of course, you have to remove the starter to do the job.

I also suspect the generator and solenoid at this point. Remove the starter and test it on the bench with a good 12 volt battery. See that it cranks when voltage is applied to the solenoid small terminal. See that it stops cranking when the voltage is removed. Check that the starter drive and solenoid are free to move and are not binding. If this checks OK, then check the wiring and the starter relay for sticking.

Good luck.

Joe, BCA 33493

I messed with the car tonight. I have figured out somewhat where the problem lies, but I still haven't isolated it to where I know what the problem is. First I'll explain what I did. I figured out the last time that if the A terminal is grounded to the frame (as the service manual explains), the starter solenoid didn't act up and keep the starter cranking after the motor was running. The battery is in tiptop shape. I already run the file over the points in the regulator so that would somewhat be out of the picture as best as possible.

Now what I did tonight was disconnect the wires from the A & F terminals on the generator. turned the key on and nothing. So I connected the A terminal back up and proceeded to hit the start button. Eureka!! It started just as it should with no starter issues. I did this several times with the starter performing just like it should. Then while the motor was running I attempted to attach the wire that was disconnected from the F terminal. Guess what? The solenoid kicked in! I tried it again and the solenoid kicked the starter in again while the engine was running. So I feel fairly confident that the Starter, solenoid, starter relay, and my start button are trouble free.

My issues evidently are with either the generator or the regulator. I removed the generator to look it over. Looking at it, it didn't look bad. It wasn't overly dirty inside. The commutator looked to be clean and the ribs weren't filled up. The brushes looked to be in good shape with little wear. I proceeded to check the case with a multimeter looking for a short between the case and the innards. I forget what results I got but according to the book it seemed good as far as that can go. I figure at this point I have three options.

1. install it back on the car since I have looked at the innards and check it out per the book trouble shooting. I'm limited on checking charge rate because I'm afraid the starter will interfere with checking the charge rate. But if I do have a problem with it there isn't a local shop to service it. I'd have to send it to get it serviced which would likely cost $50 at least just to ship it.

2. I can also replace the regulator, but I've heard the newer regulators are junk compared to the old ones.

3. Just install a alternator and get it over with. I'm sure everyone will agree that they charge far superior over a generator when taking into account over charge with lights on and off and still charge even while at an idle.

I'm sure everyone has there own idea but I'm leaning towards an alternator.

Willie,

Yes that's the right pages. If you look in the bottom right of page three it says if the engine will not stop cranking see paragraph 10-9. Then looking at 10-9 it says to ground generator terminal A which I did and found the cause.

Im running a alternator because I needed the extra amps. I kept the pedal start because it's unique. If your going to keep that, make sure you still provide a ground for the starting circuit . I think you'll need a diode to prevent back feeding from the alternator.

If you don't need the amps then you can save yourself some work by putting in a good alt.

Based on Post #24 by Buicknewbee, I think there are two problems here.

First, with the engine running, if the carburetor switch is functioning correctly, the starter should not engage as the engine is providing sufficient vacuum to prevent the switch from closing and thereby operating the starter relay. If the carburetor switch is bypassed and a simple pushbutton is used, then if it is not pushed to close it's own contacts then the starter should not activate.

With the ARM (or GEN) terminal of the generator connected to the ARM terminal on the regulator, the post indicates that the starter activates and then starts the engine. With the engine now running, the starter does not activate. So far so good. Now when the F terminal of the generator is connected to the F terminal on the regulator, the starter activates with the engine running. If the wiring is all correct, this can only happen if the connection of the F terminal causes the ARM terminal to go to ground, completing the circuit for the starter relay. This would implicate the regulator as faulty or the wiring is incorrect.

Buick designed 2 safety systems to prevent starter activation while the engine is running, one is supplying engine vacuum to the carburetor switch and the other is grounding the starter relay to ARM terminal on the generator.

I wish I could check this car out myself. These circuits are not that complicated.

Joe, BCA 33493