SAFETY ISSUE FOR MANY GM V6 FRONT DRIVE VEHICLES!!!!!!!

[padgett]

Then the part number is just the doughnut ($16.71ea + S&H from GMParts and the bolt is not included ? Anyone have a current part number for the bolt and spacer (11503690 comes up "not available") ? What do you need for a complete repair package ?

[manikmekanik]

From looking it over, and the posted pix, it would seem the rubber cushion should be part of the assembly bolted-onto the drivetrain carrier, much like a ball joint, they don't expect you to put a new ball into a failed socket.

Thanx 4 the input, padgett, I have'nt researched parts price/availability, as I've gotta get the 91 Stealth done, and out of the shop first. The Stealth has a trans/sensor issue, TCM is in "Safe mode" allowing only 3rd gear and reverse.

I'm thankful for any input from members who have info on part description/price/vendors/recalls, etc.

[Vincent Vega]

As Greg described it's more than a doughnut. It is basically two big washers with a hollow shaft between them. The whole thing is "wrapped" in a rubber insulator. The whole thing bolts to the subframe with three small embedded bolts. The large bolt goes through the shaft to a cage nut in the frame.

[Guest Greg Ross]

Randy/ Padgett,

Going (again) from memory the PN will cover the Isolator only, no bolt and no dished washer. I was able to reuse the washers from mine, they were not badly wasted. It was the vulcanized piece that was rotten. I got the bolts from an Industrial Fastener House (grade 8 most likely)metric as I recall.

Cannot remember what the rear Isolators look like, seems they're a different configuration. To R & R them you've got to drop the rear sub-frame/ or just let it pivot down on the Sway Bar rod ends. The bolts are accessed up through openings in the rear suspension yoke. Socket and extension req'd. On mine I replaced the whole rear sub-frame (replaced the front one too)and swapped over my struts, brakes, bearings and replaced all the bushings. The sheet metal where the isolators mount on the rear clip on mine was toatlly wasted. Too bad we can only go back 5 years in the Search feature. I don't have those photos any more. (maybe stil on my old LapTop)

Randy, on the upside you do have great access to apply penetrating oil to the bolts(remains) <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest CL_Reatta]

Hm, thanks I will take a look tommorow, as for Phil, last time I talked to him (saturday), he had taken his parents Durango to florida instead of the Explorer

[Texan]

Checked all my money pits, Reattas that is, and the only one with serious rust is the parts car from Louisiana. I expected that. The others are all southwestern cars and show very little corrosion or rust. There must be something wrong, a Reatta problem that did not cost me money. Miracles never cease.

Glad your daughter was not hurt, she needs to buy a lottery ticket.

[manikmekanik]

I took some pix of "Black Beauty's" underside, for an example of good isolators.

She was originally a Texan, but like Reagan, she moved to California. No corrosives used on the roads there.

"Bambi-Killer" was a native Illinoisyan, and saw plenty of corrosives in her 186k miles.

[Guest ReattaFan1]

The last post on this thread was back on 07 but I thought I'd bring this thread to date. Lately it's a few new forum members that are being forewarned on what to look for when considering a Reatta. And this thread on rusting subframe bolts has been referred to time and time again. It's major concern.

Really there is no way to see what condition the bolt shanks are in until you turn out the bolts. And if your getting in that far you might as well just have new bolts and bushings to install.

Doing a google search I found an interesting project, well illustrated where aluminum was used in place of the rubber bushings. The work was done on a Ford Taurus SHO but Im sure the same thing could be implemented on the Reatta. Here is a link to the site ⇒ SHO Phoenix Project ⇐ I was just wondering what others thought about it. The other question I have is once the work is finished (with either the aluminum mod or original rubber bushing) is there a need for 4 wheel alignment afterwards?

I live in Florida but my Reatta had migrated from Kentucky just a year ago so I plan on replacing the mounts and bolts just as a safety precaution. Chances are I'll be good to go with the original rubber bushings. If you live in the salt belt even if you stay with the original rubber bushings you'll still have another 15 to 20 years before chances of a failure. Thats a long time.

Interesting to see, looking at the Ratta parts illustration book there was a change between 91 and 92. See, there are 3 designated bolt positions. On bolt #3 They added a new bushing design with a retainer washer. That'll help keep your car from splitting apart if the bushings fail. I also noticed the bolts have new part numbers. I'm sure the new bolts metal compositions are less likely to succumb corrosion. Im curious if this later design changed will fit on the earlier 88-91 models.

Edited January 20, 2011 by ReattaFan1 (see edit history)

[Guest Double M]

First off thanx for bringing this issue/thread to our attention again.

Secondly, since I have my Reatta there has been a few noises coming from the front end and I had to just leave that to tmy front end guy, when I have money to do so, come next spring/summer. There is also a jiggling little noise coming from the rear that sounds like a sway bar link or tie rod end or something. But after driving the car daily I have Isolated two seperate noises...

One is a more common, not very loud knocking noise that is heard over the slightest bumps, perhaps a bushing or Ball Joint on the drivers side.

The other however is a louder noise that occurs over larger bumps and is similar to the sound of a broken motor mount, or now that you mention it, perhaps a broken body mount on the drivers side and it can be felt slightly through the steering wheel. I thought this may be a suspension issue, but this thread has me wondering...

I thought when my mechanic changed out the Front Axle, that was the cause, but the noise remained. Winter came along and now my spending and fixing of the Reatta came to a screaching halt. All the extra cash goes to the oil bills now...

I know it is stretch to diagnose over the Internet, and it is way too cold for me to start working on it... but do you think this body bushing thing could be the culprit?

[DAVES89]

I think it is the strut mount bushings...

[Guest Albert]

I have removed a few front wheel drive engines from the GMs and found a few where the bolts look good ,, untill you go to undo them and they are completly rotted..

and they sheer off

[Guest Greg Ross]

Since there's no hi-liting of bolt removal process in this thread it should be put out here as a reminder;

Recommensed to saturate the upper side of these isolator mounts with " PB Blast" or equivalent several times over several days. The hidden end of the bolt is threaded into a blind/ floating nut that is only supported in a light guage sheet metal cage.

After 24 or nominally less years the threads are likely to be seized. I can't recall from my episode but I did need to get access to one that spun, I think it necessitated removal of the battery to get down thru an opening in the body structure. Got a set of vice grips in there in place to hold that nut to allow removal.

Use penetrant

[Guest ReattaFan1]

Since there's no hi-liting of bolt removal process in this thread it should be put out here as a reminder;

Recommensed to saturate the upper side of these isolator mounts with " PB Blast" or equivalent several times over several days. The hidden end of the bolt is threaded into a blind/ floating nut that is only supported in a light guage sheet metal cage.

After 24 or nominally less years the threads are likely to be seized. I can't recall from my episode but I did need to get access to one that spun, I think it necessitated removal of the battery to get down thru an opening in the body structure. Got a set of vice grips in there in place to hold that nut to allow removal.

Use penetrant

Good call on the daily presoak of PB Blast. Little heat from a butane torch would help too when removing them. I wonder if anyone had an issue with the bolt heads breaking off trying to turn them out. it's not much of a bolt shank left on the rusted bolts. That would be a pain!

Edit: Looking back I see Albert said they they sheer off. How can you back them out after that? EZ-Out's?

Edited January 20, 2011 by ReattaFan1 (see edit history)

[TheBlackMoon]

Wow...

Greg, only Barney may know for sure, but I think I may have been the one about 6 or 7yrs ago (maybe more; was it 2002??) that reported the "bushing assembly" literally "ripping" out of the underside of my car after hitting a large pot-hole in Baltimore, Md after a major snow storm. It's been a hell of a while and I can't find the original post.

As stated, the assembly, at least in the rear, bolt into a nut welded to what I can only describe as, "frighteningly THIN", parts of the frame. I don't remember all of the details, but then, this post goes aver them quite thoroughly anyway. I do believe I purchased them as a single assembly, not as separate bolts and bushings, though that was also an option. After FRAME-RIGHT of Baltimore, MD on Harford Road repaired/reinforced my frame with "new metal" where the tear occurred, they suggested that ALL of the frame bushing assemblies be replaced, and so I had my mechanic do so. They were not very expensive at the time, if I recall, and, once removed (which drops the subframe drastically) were easily replaced. I'm positive the mechanic used the "heat" method to remove them.

Also, forwarning...

They are the ONLY things holding your subframe chassis (your engine!!!) in place, so use a jack to support the engine and only remove one quarter at a time (LF,RF,LR+1,RR+1) if you plan to do it yourself.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Consultants_1 (see edit history)

[Guest 88atta]

Does anyone in the forum have a updated list of all the current part numbers and materials required to accomplish a complete replacement package? I would imagine there maybe some differences between the years.

[Guest Greg Ross]

ReattaFan1,

The image in your posting shows remains of the bolt shank and corroded residue of the metal sleeve from the inside of the bushing along with it appears an upper washer. The sheet metal structure these attach to contains what I'll call a floating blind nut. The square nut floats inside a sheet metal cage which allows it to self-align with the bolt being installed from below. With extensive corrosion the cage may be compromized or substantially weakened. With a seized bolt it's very liklely to just spin.

Certainly the front two out by the Rad can be accessed with some difficulty. The rear ones I cannot recall what if any access is available. Seems perhaps it's possible to drill a hole in the wheelwell to access the furthest aft ones. That may have been "Vincent Vegas" solution", I'm just going from unreliable memory!

[NTX5467]

In reality, this same issue exists with EVERY unitized-body vehicle with a bolt-in subframe, NOT just fwd GM vehicles--period.

Several years ago, the subframe mounts on my '77 Camaro had deteriorated and I had them replaced with new GM-sourced ones, PLUS Grade 8 bolts of the correct length specs (sourced from the GM Standard Parts Catalog). The old bolts came out, but were deteriorating in the center section. After replacement of the mounts and bolts, the ride was much quieter with less road noise. Now, many years later, it's time to do the mounts again. If they were this way in North TX, I can imagine what it might have been in some more northern locale!

The original bolts were probably Grade 5 ("normal") items. In the case of an accident where it would be best if something broke other than the floorpan, the Grade 5 bolts would be sacrificed as the desireable thing to break. I suspect the Grade 8 bolts would be more resistant to deterioration?

So . . . this situation applies to ALL subframed vehicles, period. Something that probably should be normal maintenance "up north", but can also be applied to higher-mileage older vehicles, too. In warmer areas, moisture or condensate can collect on the center sections of the bolts, which are protected by the inner metal/rubber tubes of the body mounts, so these bolts can be subject to deterioration, just at a suspected slower rate than the similar vehicles up north. In fact . . . body/frame architectured vehicles can be subject to similar situations, just not usually with the same catastrophic issues as a subframed vehicle.

One thing which happened to me, with the Camaro, was that as I slowly backed out from the parking space at work, with the wheels turned, slowly moving backwards, I felt a POP/bump and felt something in the floorpan as I backed up. It felt like I'd run over something, but there was nothing to run over. I stopped and gently drove it back into the parking space. I looked under the hood and found the rear, rh upper control arm bolt "gone". I found the threaded section and nut laying on the concrete. I pulled out the cell phone and called the Enterprise Rental place about a block away and got something to drive home in. I also called our service writer to make arrangements to get it in the shop (and transported there by a wrecker).

The bolt had stretched at some time or another, then had begun to crack and finally broke. The car has a PosiTrac, which is pretty much "solid" all the time, so it can place some additional stresses as it tries to move in a straight line as the front wheels are turned, so that might have helped things along in this case. I requested that both of the bolts be replaced, but only the failed one was replaced--I guess the other one was still good.

It's great that no one in the earlier Reatta incident was hurt!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

This might be an old thread, but the message is still viable.

[Guest 88atta]

Thought I'd ask the question one more time; hopefully some one has the info available:

Does anyone have a current and/or a part number list of the parts required to fix both front and back sub-frame isolators? I'm specifically looking for parts for a 1988 repair but any help would be greatly appreciated; a recommended source of supply would of great help as well.

[Barney Eaton]

1627359 (group9.023) this number was sent to me by a Reatta owner at least 5 years ago.

The Reatta part numbers have been long discontinued and I believe this is a Riviera part number.

I also believe the same part is used in all locations.

[NCReatta]

1627359 (group9.023) this number was sent to me by a Reatta owner at least 5 years ago.

The Reatta part numbers have been long discontinued and I believe this is a Riviera part number.

I also believe the same part is used in all locations.

Does this include the bolt and rubber bushing?

[KDirk]

I know when I did these on my 91 I needed new bushings, cupped washers, bolts and the small nuts that attach to the three small threaded studs on each of the bushings to hold the bushing into the cradle structure.

None of the part numbers from the 1992 Buick E body manual were good any longer, all had been superceded by newer GM part numbers. I believe some of the parts arrived in AC Delco packaging, not GM SPO boxes. In any case, it was a nasty job and I am very lucky I had a compressor and air tools. I had to chisel the last of the 6 bushings to split it out from around the bolt it was seized (rusted together) so badly.

I know my parts guy at the time (dealership since closed) had a difficult time sourcing the main bolts, but did finally turn them up. New bolts had much larger heads (I think 16 or 17mm, vs 13 for the originals if memory serves).

Also, while the original setup had different bushings at different locations (1,2,3 right and left) the replacements were "universal" and replaced all prior part numbers. Hard to say if this had any real effect on handling or ride characteristics. It was certainly better than the rotted out bushings I replaced.

I keep thinking I should get some together for the 88. Doesn't need it now, but will someday and I fear the availability of parts after another few years will be very spotty. GM now could care less about serviceability of these cars, and after 20+ years why should they? From the company's standpoint, they are well past their useful lifespan.

Since the E-platform cars were not overwhelmingly popular (compared to other offerings of the time) I wonder how much longer we can expect critical parts to be available from GM. Aftermarket will be OK for a while, but even there some things are already obsolete/no longer available.

KDirk

[charlie1]

Recently had mine done on my 89 Riviera. Parts were a issue BUT had a good parts man locate them. I would suggesting getting them now if you think you will need them in the future. This is required maintenance at some point in time.

[Ronnie]

Recently had mine done on my 89 Riviera. Parts were a issue BUT had a good parts man locate them. I would suggesting getting them now if you think you will need them in the future. This is required maintenance at some point in time.

Could you please look at your receipt and tell us what part numbers were used?

[charlie1]

Ok Ronnie Here we go.

4 bolts 10409029

4 insulators 1627359

4 spacer 1626368

This was for my 1989 Riviera guess Reatta would be the same ??

[NCReatta]

Ok Ronnie Here we go.

4 bolts 10409029

4 insulators 1627359

4 spacer 1626368

This was for my 1989 Riviera guess Reatta would be the same ??

What store did you buy them from?

[Ronnie]

Ok Ronnie Here we go.

4 bolts 10409029

4 insulators 1627359

4 spacer 1626368

This was for my 1989 Riviera guess Reatta would be the same ??

Thanks! The number for the insulators is the same part number KDirk used when he replaced his in '08. I didn't have the number for the spacers and bolts on my website I'm going to add them now. Edited September 8, 2011 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[charlie1]

The car will be going in within the next 3 weeks for the removal and repair of the rust on the rear frame which will include replacement of upper insulators. I understand from the parts man these were extreamly difficult to find. If you have any interest I plan on updating my post that I started on this project a few weeks ago.

Once again this is a 1989 Riviera NOT sure about rear being same as Reatta.

We are replacing the entire exhaust system with Walker parts for good measure.

Edited September 8, 2011 by CHAS1 (see edit history)

[Guest Recian]

Mine isnt as bad as these pics but the rusty surface of one of the washers for mine fell off while doing my engine. I'll crawl under it tomorrow and see what the rest of it looks like. The other 5 seem ok. The large donut flake of rust conscerns me now. I know i've got some rear body rust that's minor but needs attention

[KDirk]

Chas1,

You listed quantities of 4 each for the parts used. There are 6 bushings/bolts/washers total. Did your mechanic leave 2 of them as-is? I would expect if 4 needed replacement, they all did (3 per side, for a total of 6).

KDirk

[padgett]

$25.60 +s&h for a set, $153.60 + s&h for six.

[Guest 88atta]

CHAS1... Thanks for the info on the parts but where did you purchase the parts from??

[Guest 88atta]

Padgett

Please clarify your posting "$25.60 +s&h for a set, $153.60 + s&h for six". If you are referring to sub-assembly parts... Is there a set part number assigned and what is the source of supply?

[DAVES89]

Doing the math I would say that a "set" would be the bolt, insulator and nut at $25.60 total. Times 6 each would be $153.60.

[Guest 88atta]

Thanks Dave...the math wasn't my problem...the chance of having a possible part # for the set and a good source of supply is? Unless I missed something, no one has given a name of a supplier yet!!

[Guest Recian]

Where can you get these bolt/insulator sets from?

[charlie1]

no one has given a name of a supplier yet!!

The part supplier is your choice... The numbers I supplied were GM OEM

numbers.

Try GM parts direct or your dealer if they give you a good price.

[NCReatta]

GMPD has them. You can get a set of 6 (enough to do one car) for 195.85 (with shipping). Sales tax is charged in NC.. just FYI...

[charlie1]

Chas1,

You listed quantities of 4 each for the parts used. There are 6 bushings/bolts/washers total. Did your mechanic leave 2 of them as-is? I would expect if 4 needed replacement, they all did (3 per side, for a total of 6).

KDirk

Just spoke to my tech. The fronts are up high and enclosed therefore he said they were good and did not need to be replaced. Only the 4 lowers were done. Just dropped it off for the R&R of rear frame. I will uodate my post on the rear frame once it is complete next week

[KDirk]

Chas1,

Ok, good to hear. I was wondering why two were skipped. As long as your tech deemed them safe, then no reason to worry. Assuming you know you can trust his judgment anyway.

I will look forward to the update on the rear. I need to do rear struts on my 91, and am not looking forward to it. Not much rust, so I am not so worried about the rear subframe being damaged, but I know many here have had a lot of difficulty removing the rear struts for replacement due to clearance issues, and the need to use a torx wrench to hold the threaded stud in place while undoing the nut.

KDirk

[Guest Recian]

As of sept 2011 Theyre $29.04 ea (1 bolt, 1 washer, 1 insulator) These are the 3 part numbers listed earlier in this posting. I intend to do mine before I put the engine back in. I got to looking closer and 2 of the washers are rusted out and all 6 bushings are severly dryrotted and splitting, no rust on the other 4 so maybe it wont be a pain like some of the ones posted up here.