scary wiring

[57_chieftain]

I'm rewiring the 57 front to back. Check out this wiring. This one is about average for what i have found so far. One connection was twisted and wrapped with an actual Bandaid! Is it only this car, or have you seen other scary wiring? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[rocketraider]

Nope. Not just you. I've seen plenty as bad as or worse, though I've never seen a splice taped with a Band-Aid!

That's one reason I hate working on V8 Chevrolets or any GM musclecar- the previous owners always leave their stamp and it often involves butchered wiring. My best highschool buddy's nice 65 Impala burned in our highschool parking lot because of a buggered ammeter and tape deck installation by its P.O. Ever since then, I've been a stickler for repairing wiring correctly, with solder and heat-shrink.

What's even scarier is I've seen sloppy repairs made by dealer mechanics.

[1937hd45]

I sell most of my car projects before I get to the wire stage, why ruin all that hard work.

[Amphicar BUYER]

The problem I always find is cut wires. People who don't take the time to see how that connector is attached to the harness and just cut it! (that is just lazy) There is rarely (if ever) any connector that must be cut off. I just restored a harness for a guy who did just that. He was surprised that it cost him $1000 for me to restore it. He still asks me how I could repair all those splices and not see any evidence of the reapirs. That is why it cost so much! You get what you pay for. His said his next project will not be cut anywhere. I hope he learned his lesson.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Then there are the jokers who go crazy with the crimp connectors usually too large for the wire they're on, so the connection works loose, etc... the worst place for this is under the back end of a pick-up truck, for the rear lights...

I've found four-conductor telephone wire, house-hold wiring ( with wire nuts), etc...

Then there are the ones who use 12-volt wire on a six-volt car...

And so-on...

At least in the case of Chrysler products up through the mid-'60s(my greatest familiarity), the factory terminals were crimped then SOLDERED onto the wire... usually the only reason to replace them is when they lose their insulation ( doesn't happen much with the 1956 & newer cars that had plastic-insulated wiring)...

I will think twice about buying a post-1960 car if the wiring looks extremely "altered"...

(sigh)...

I guess that mess in the picture is the result of "Git'r'done" wrenchin'... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

(PS: This is exactly one of the very good reasons that AACA ( and most other show folk) require a functional fire-extinguisher, in plain view, on each & every vehicle on the show field... )

[Guest aussie610]

When my father first restored the Graham, he rewired it in Black, every single wire...... Oh I forgot the last couple of conections, they were yellow because he ran out of black....

I am still trying to fix that one.

[57_chieftain]

I bet that was fun!

[Guest aussie610]

Still is, Im still trying to fix it.....

To compound the problem, When he wired the headlights, he forgot to put a join in. Next time we had to remove the front engine cover i spent 2 hours looking for the join so I Could separate it.. Grumble grumble, wheres the wire cutters and the bullet connectors... mutter mutter mutter...

Lucky its not got much wiring in the first place, gotta love the cars of the twenties

[mrpushbutton]

Boy, for some reason the worst monkey work of all is on electrical systems and wiring. I have seen all of the above tricks and more. I have straightened out cars that were blue crimp-connector hell when they came in, and almost always I could count on finding small gauge 12V replacement battery cables on a 6V car.

Electrical work is one of those things everyone thinks is easy, and far to often modifications are made without regard as to increased amperage draw. I wonder if these "mechanics" have pennies in their fuse box at home?

according to Red Green, a nickel can handle 5 times as much juice as a penny.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Chief,Bad looking wiring is BAD but when Bad looking wiring starts to be BAD <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />smelling <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> then i get SCARED.diz <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Electrical work is one of those things everyone thinks is easy, and far to often modifications are made without regard as to increased amperage draw. </div></div>

Count me out of that "everyone" group.

[Ron Green]

Being a former electrician I actually enjoy the wiring part of working on these old vehicles. Tracking down a problem while tracing and finding various clues along the way.

Always remember; "2 wire hook up, 3 wire screw up, 4 wire #$%* up!" <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

If you can understand BOTH house and automotive wiring I'll bet you can walk on water too, I'm impressed! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then there are the ones who use 12-volt wire on a six-volt car...</div></div>

There's no difference in wire for a six volt or twelve volt car. Somebody's pullin your...................

Now, if you mean wires like battery cables that are undersized for 6-volt use I would agree but wire size is based on ampacity or the wires capacity to carry amperage. Doubling the voltage doubles the capacity. If you were to convert a six volt car to a 12 volt car you could double fuse size and circuit load and still have proper protection as doubling the voltage double the wires capacity to carry current.

Here's a simplified example. You have two lighting systems. One operates at 240 volts and the other operates at 480 volts. Both systems have 12 gauge wire and are breaker protected at 20 amps. Both are single phase, meaning there are only two conductors, each carrying half the voltage.

The 20-amp 240-volt circuit allows for 4,800 watts. Amps times volts = Watts.

The 20-amp 480-volt circuit allows for 9,600 watts on the same wire size. Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current.

[Bhigdog]

Wire correctly sized to carry a given application at 12 volts would be 100% under capacity servicing the given application at 6 volts. Mr. DeSoto Frank's statement stands.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wire correctly sized to carry a given application at 12 volts would be 100% under capacity servicing the given application at 6 volts. Mr. DeSoto Frank's statement stands. </div></div>

You just reinforced what I just said and contradicted what he said. Why are you arguing?

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then there are the ones who use 12-volt wire on a six-volt car...</div></div>

There's no difference in wire for a six volt or twelve volt car. Somebody's pullin your...................

Now, if you mean wires like battery cables that are undersized for 6-volt use I would agree but wire size is based on ampacity or the wires capacity to carry amperage. Doubling the voltage doubles the capacity. If you were to convert a six volt car to a 12 volt car you could double fuse size and circuit load and still have proper protection as doubling the voltage double the wires capacity to carry current.

Here's a simplified example. You have two lighting systems. One operates at 240 volts and the other operates at 480 volts. Both systems have 12 gauge wire and are breaker protected at 20 amps. Both are single phase, meaning there are only two conductors, each carrying half the voltage.

The 20-amp 240-volt circuit allows for 4,800 watts. Amps times volts = Watts.

The 20-amp 480-volt circuit allows for 9,600 watts on the same wire size. Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current. </div></div>

Barry, Why not be like all the others and make this ever so easy for us electrically challenged and use the "It's just like water" explanation. Should be good reading. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then there are the ones who use 12-volt wire on a six-volt car...</div></div>

There's no difference in wire for a six volt or twelve volt car. Somebody's pullin your...................

Now, if you mean wires like battery cables that are undersized for 6-volt use I would agree but wire size is based on ampacity or the wires capacity to carry amperage. Doubling the voltage doubles the capacity. If you were to convert a six volt car to a 12 volt car you could double fuse size and circuit load and still have proper protection as doubling the voltage double the wires capacity to carry current.

Here's a simplified example. You have two lighting systems. One operates at 240 volts and the other operates at 480 volts. Both systems have 12 gauge wire and are breaker protected at 20 amps. Both are single phase, meaning there are only two conductors, each carrying half the voltage.

The 20-amp 240-volt circuit allows for 4,800 watts. Amps times volts = Watts.

The 20-amp 480-volt circuit allows for 9,600 watts on the same wire size. Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current. </div></div>

Barry, Why not be like all the others and make this ever so easy for us electrically challenged and use the "It's just like water" explanation. Should be good reading. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

I don't know that water would be exactly analagous. I really don't know. Would someone explain the "it's just like water" explanation to me.

[novaman]

Not sure about Ron being capable of walking on water but I can personally verify his ability to <span style="font-weight: bold">drive</span> on water! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[mrpushbutton]

I think Frank meant to say 12V starter cables, not wire. Wire is wire, gauge is gauge and current (amperage, expressed in ampres)is current, and the mathematical relationships between all of those properties is constant.

No one has ever fought Ohms law and won.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Ron,Hey i never heard that 2,3,4 wire deal before,THAT was a good one.diz <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

This is getting GOOD! Hope everyone is paying attention, notice that all the players that understand electricity all have a different opinion and more and more new electrical terms are popping up, "ohms" was the latest addition. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Frank meant to say 12V starter cables, not wire. Wire is wire, gauge is gauge and current (amperage, expressed in ampres)is current, and the mathematical relationships between all of those properties is constant.

No one has ever fought Ohms law and won. </div></div>

Then you and I are in agreement.

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Being a former electrician I actually enjoy the wiring part of working on these old vehicles. Tracking down a problem while tracing and finding various clues along the way.

Always remember; "2 wire hook up, 3 wire screw up, 4 wire #$%* up!"

</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can understand BOTH house and automotive wiring I'll bet you can walk on water too, I'm impressed! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Well as a matter of fact I know Ron can drive on water!

I understand residential, commercial and automotive wiring myself (son of a 40+ years exp. Master Electrician). However I must admit I can't walk on water either (or land for that matter either)

[Ron Green]

Quote; "The 20-amp 480-volt circuit allows for 9,600 watts on the same wire size. Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current."

Almost correct except the wires capacity in both examples at #12 wire is 20 amps. Amps is amps as pointed out. The difference is the number of devices you can connect. A 2-tube 120 volt light fixture on a 20 amp circuit draws 1.20 amps each so you can connect 13 fixtures (16 amps maximum on a 20 amp circuit / 80%). The same light fixture at 277 volt draws .55 amps each so you can connect 29 fixtures on a 20 amp circuit.

Dizzy I have a few zingers left. David, 1937 unfortunately the water season is coming to a end. Last time out the Coast Guard pulled us over.

John B Quote; "(or land for that matter either)", your too much. For those that may not know John is wheelchair bound, unless his friends decide to help him over some steps and dump him. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote; "The 20-amp 480-volt circuit allows for 9,600 watts on the same wire size. Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current."

Almost correct except the wires capacity in both examples at #12 wire is 20 amps. Amps is amps as pointed out. The difference is the number of devices you can connect. A 2-tube 120 volt light fixture on a 20 amp circuit draws 1.20 amps each so you can connect 13 fixtures (16 amps maximum on a 20 amp circuit / 80%). The same light fixture at 277 volt draws .55 amps each so you can connect 29 fixtures on a 20 amp circuit.</div></div>

Please point out where you said anything different than what I said. No one said anything about the 80% rule, only wire capacity. Ron, why would you interject this information when it added nothing new? In fact, 12 gauge wire is capable of carrying much more than 20 amps.

[Bhigdog]

Quote....

There's no difference in wire for a six volt or twelve volt car. Somebody's pullin your.......

Frank says (to paraphrase) that using wire correctly sized for a 12V car would be undersized when used for the same application in a 6V car. You seem to disagree. He is correct.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote....

There's no difference in wire for a six volt or twelve volt car. Somebody's pullin your.......

Frank says (to paraphrase) that using wire correctly sized for a 12V car would be undersized when used for the same application in a 6V car. You seem to disagree. He is correct. </div></div>

That's not what he said at all. Your linguistic gymnastics doesn't change what he wrote. You need to read what was written. You seem to have a peception problem that I can't seem to cure with clear and concise writing. Why don't you let Frank speak for himself?

[R W Burgess]

I was waiting for that Ron. Having not met John personally yet, I won't make jokes about him.

John, be aware though, that after we've met, all bets are off! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Ron Green]

You said "Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current."

The conductors ampacity or capacity is not doubled, just the amount of devices / load (pending what voltage rating) that can be connected. And yes #12 has many ampere ratings depending on insulation, free air, copper, aluminum, etc.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You said "Doubling the voltage doubles the wires capacity to carry current."

The conductors ampacity or capacity is not doubled, just the amount of devices / load (pending what voltage rating) that can be connected. And yes #12 has many ampere ratings depending on insulation, free air, copper, aluminum, etc. </div></div>

Sorry, I disagree. Doubling the number of devices is doubling the capacity.

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John B Quote; "(or land for that matter either)", your too much. For those that may not know John is wheelchair bound, unless his friends decide to help him over some steps and dump him. </div></div>

Yup, toss me in the dirt, then make me President of the club! I thought you were suppose to vote a person President BEFORE you drag them through the mud!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I probably won't be such an easy target as "W" though.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was waiting for that Ron. Having not met John personally yet, I won't make jokes about him.

John, be aware though, that after we've met, all bets are off! </div></div>

Wayne - You have to try pretty hard to offend me! You'd probably have to tell me it was meant to offend. If you heard how my friends and family speak to and about me, you'd have no problem. It's all in fun. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Ron Green]

Barry, I am not going to go into this anymore after this post but if you re-read my other post regarding voltage verses amps it pretty much explains it.

A 120 volt fixture ballast on a 120 volt circuit draws more amperes then the same fixture at 277 volts. 13 fixtures at 120 volts and 29 fixtures at 277 volts use the same amount of amps. The same theory that a 240 volt air conditioner is more efficient then a 120 volt unit.

John, consider that a hazing to your new upcoming Presidential position.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, I am not going to go into this anymore after this post but if you re-read my other post regarding voltage verses amps it pretty much explains it.

A 120 volt fixture ballast on a 120 volt circuit draws more amperes then the same fixture at 277 volts. 13 fixtures at 120 volts and 29 fixtures at 277 volts use the same amount of amps. The same theory that a 240 volt air conditioner is more efficient then a 120 volt unit.

John, consider that a hazing to your new upcoming Presidential position. </div></div>

Fine, If you want to duck the issue on-line then take it to PM. I still think you example only serves to confuse the issue. If you'll reread my post I gave a "simplified" explanation. You are the one that has complicated and confused the issue.

There is no formula of <span style="text-decoration: underline">volts vs. amps</span> that I know of. I also disagree that a 240-volt AC unit is more "efficient" than a 120-volt unit. A 12,000 btu window-shaker uses the exact same amount of energy whether it's meant to run on 120 or 240 volts. The only difference is the wire size. The cost of operation is identical. Dispute that.

This whole thing started with the definitive statement that there is a physical difference in wire between a 6-volt car and a 12-volt car. I stand by my statement that there is no such thing as specific 6-volt and specific 12-volt wire.

If I'm wrong, prove it. Find 6-volt or 12-volt specific wire in a NAPA catalogue.

[Ron Green]

Barry you win. I have only been in the electrical racket for 33 years being the youngest at 53 in our family which dates back to the 1930's. I have had a master electrician license for most of those years and currently review and design circuitry as a senior electrical construction manager for my employer. Our single office does 284 million dollars of in place construction per year and upwards of 1.2 billion in pre-construction.

Though automotive wiring is different many principles are the same. I never stated that there was a difference between 6 and 12 volt wire only applications verses amount of load, etc.

[57_chieftain]

i was told to use "12 volt" wire for a job i was doing by someone a while back. He couldn't tell me what the difference was, so i checked around to get a definite answer, and the only answer i could get that made any sense was that "12 volt" wire has insulation more suited to the heat environment under the hood and had nothing whatsoever to do with the electrical properties of the wire itself.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry you win. I have only been in the electrical racket for 33 years being the youngest at 53 in our family which dates back to the 1930's. I have had a master electrician license for most of those years and currently review and design circuitry as a senior electrical construction manager for my employer. Our single office does 284 million dollars of in place construction per year and upwards of 1.2 billion in pre-construction.

Though automotive wiring is different many principles are the same. I never stated that there was a difference between 6 and 12 volt wire only applications verses amount of load, etc. </div></div>

I have been in the trade as long as you have. You took a simplified example and turned it into a pissing contest.

[R W Burgess]

Barry, Ron backed down...give it a rest.

Wayne

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, Ron backed down...give it a rest.

Wayne </div></div>

I WON!!!!!!! The point is electricity can not be explained! So glad I'm a body & paint guy! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I WON!!!!!!! The point is electricity can not be explained! So glad I'm a body & paint guy! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Electricity is easy to explain. It does not exist! Everything runs on smoke. Let the smoke out, nothing works! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<span style="font-weight: bold">There is NO such thing as specific 12V or 6V wire, PERIOD!!!!! </span>

The only thing that matters is the load asked of the wire.

Think of it in terms of water. A larger hose (wire) can deliver more water (Amps).

- Volts are like the line pressure (PSI),

- Amps are akin to gallons per hour.

- Ohms are akin to the size of the pipe (resistance)

If anyone needs further explination, ask a local eletrician to sit down and explain what Ron is saying and I am sure you will see what he means. He does know what he is talking about. It may just need to be explained in different terms that make sense to you.