Brass Cars

[D Binger]

I have seen several post in the past several weeks that indicate that there are folks in this hobby that are not sure what the term "Brass Car" means. I would like to help them understand what brass refers to.

Brass cars are the vehicles they were manufactured in the era of 1915 or earlier. In other words - -cars manufactured in 1915 and earlier.

The bright work on them was brass. Things like the radiator, head lights, side lights and other parts were made of brass. Some of the brass era cars did not have brass on them but are still called brass.

Can others add to this so folks understand what is being refered to when the term "Brass Car" is used?

Dan

[R W Burgess]

I think you covered it, Dan! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Couldn't be any clearer than that.

Wayne

[Terry Bond]

Good stuff Dan - I'd add that brass cars are also often called "pioneer" cars because they represent the early ages of motoring when a trip in a car was a real adventure that you planned well ahead of time. Roads left much to be desired and there were no signs to mark the way. I have some primitive travel guides in my collection of literature that tell early motorists to "turn at the Smith farm" or "take a left turn where the stone fence ends." In addition to the challenges of the highway system (or lack of) there were also challenges for the driver, who often needed to be a combination of mechanic and blacksmith. Many of the earliest cars were still "experiments" and their reliability was questionable. Night driving was always fun with gas headlamps and oil sidelamps to light the way. Today, a "brass car tour" (or as our club calls it "Square Car Tour") can be a challenge for the restorer to keep those early cars on the road motoring along. We honor the heritage of our pioneer motorists with tours like the Glidden and Reliability, and in many ways through special events like 1 and 2 cylinder car tours, or steam car tours that are often hosted by groups like HCCA. The brass cars represent real history - to be more precise, ancient history. To recreate that is the thrill of brass era motoring/touring and everyone I know who has tried it absolutely loves it, especially when you have a chance to even dress the part.

BRASS IS BEAUTIFUL!

Terry

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Why did they mix gas lights and oil lights on the same car? Perhaps oil was not bright enough for head lights? But then, oil was used in lighthouses which could be seen for miles (larger flame and lenses, obviously). OK, so why not gas all around?

[Terry Bond]

Gas headlamps were used to illuminate the road ahead while the side and tail lamps were intended only to safely mark the car at night. A lot of towns and states passed laws quite early that required lights marking the width and rear of a vehicle so approaching vehicles could stop in time, or so passing vehicles would know about how far out into the road a parked vehicle would be. It was common to park an early car on a city street with the side and tail lamps still burning. On some smaller vehicles, and some of the early 1 & 2 cylinder cars, there were sometimes only a pair of oil lamps used up front. Most of those vehicles didnt go fast enough to drive beyond the area that was safely illuminated.

Separate but related subject - I collect brass lamps (among other things) and would be interested in getting in touch with others who also collect them.

Terry

[Rick Hoover]

Hal,

This is a good question and Terry seems to be on track with his answer. I've heard several other reasons over the years, but I believe one main reason was the overall cost.

Dan,

This is a great thread you got started. I hope to see some good conversations with it.

Rick

[R Walling]

I can remember not too long ago, (1957) that a red lantern had be displayed on a parked car in NY. (In the Albany area) It seemed very strange to me at the time, after all these were "modern cars".

[Guest Silverghost]

In most cities, and large towns you were once required to keep your "Parking" lights lit all night if your car was left parked on the street!!! This is why the oil lamps were used!!!

The gas lighs...Well... at first the gas was generated in an Acetylene Generator ( brass tank-like unit that was usually mounted on the runnning board which contained calcium Carbide which when mixed with water produced gas for the lights. They were very bright compared to oil lamps!!!

Later Prest-o-lite acetylene tanks were used in which absorbed gas was contained in a special tank that contained a special filler material and acetone . These tanks could be bought on an "Exchange Basis" where you swap your empty tank for a re-filled one!!! These are still used by plumbers today "B" "MC" tanks!!! If you burned these all night they would not last very long!!! The "Gas" headlamps were also much much brighter than the oil lamps!!!

This "Parking Lamp" rule entended way way into the Electric Light era!!!

My 88y/o Dad remembers this era very well!!!

Many times in the morning your battery(s) would be almost dead!!! Those were the days!!!

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen several post in the past several weeks that indicate that there are folks in this hobby that are not sure what the term "Brass Car" means. I would like to help them understand what brass refers to.

Dan </div></div>

Dan, Just tell them to think of a 50 Horse, chain drive, toy tonneau,with clinchers. ...Guess we need to splain this terms too.

[D Binger]

Bob,

I am glad you didn't throw in King Of Belgium.

[motoringicons]

In today's hobby, the term "Brass Car" usually implies vehicles made prior to Dec.31, 1915. Why this cutoff date? Well, in about 1936 a group of car collectors in Southern California started a club for vehicles built prior to 1916. This club, the Horseless Carriage Club of America (HCCA)is still extremely active (and continually growing!) and is the only club that has not changed the age limits of cars that are acceptable at national events.The HCCA is considered the only official national Brass Era car club in the US and any car that qualifies for a National HCCA event is thus considered a "brass car". (Much like the designated Full Classics® are the only vehicles allowed at National Classic Car Club of America events).The other clubs that existed during this period (AACA, VMCCA, etc) over the years changed there acceptance policies to allow newer vehicles into the clubs. This pre-1916 cutoff date is somewhat random, as, by 1916, about the only car that had a brass radiator was Ford and by that point virtually no cars had brass "gas" lamps, bulb horn, or the other brass "trim" items that make a car a "brass" car. So this is why alot of cars with no brass are still considered by collectors to be "brass cars". Why did this group choose Dec.31, 1915 as the cutoff? I don't know, but my guess is that in 1936, a 1915 car was only 21 years old and anything newer than that was considered just a used car.- GZ

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Sounds like the gas headlights were needed for their brightness, but cost a lot more to operate, so oil was used in the lamps that need not be so bright. Is this a fair assumption?

[Guest Silverghost]

Hal...You are spot-on...Gas costs were in fact much higher. It became more costly when Prest-O-Lite began to sell "B" tank gas rather than making your own...BUT...many or most converted to this pre-filled tank system because of ease of use!!! Just swap-out the empty tank and your good to go!

Another fctor was the amount of time that the gas in the tank lasted!!! A small oil lamp could be turned down; and would last for many many hours. Also the lamp oil was the same oil that you used in your home for light and possibly cooking...thanks to "Standard Oil Co."

Dad remembers his father sending him out at dusk to light the "Parking Lamps" on his Dad's car. They used to live in a side street of Philadelphia at the time with no off-street parking!

He also said that his Father's car had a Prest-o-lite special starting system that used this same gas to help start the car in cold weather, or when the car had not been used for a long period of time. This gas system eliminated the need to open the engine hood and pour a small amount of gasoline into the primer cup-valves...

This system was on an early CoLE automobile!!!

You would turn a valve and the Prest-o-lit gas would flow into the intake manifold (before carb chokes) for a fast easy start. He says the system worked very very well!!!

He also remembers his Father having an Electric stater system retro-fitted onto this car. Before these two systems he says it was very difficult to crank-start this COLE in cold weather!!!

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

That is very interesting information. Thanks!

Another question. Did anyone have any sort of ignition device to remotely light the headlights? I don't imagine it would have been too hard to devise something using a spark coil. Of course you could buy a lot of matches for the price of a spark coil.

[Restorer32]

When do you suppose the last gas headlights were fitted to an American motor vehicle?

[Terry Bond]

There were quite a few different ignitors available, in fact some of the same ones used in household applications worked very well for automotive lamps. They all used a flint/striker mechanism and generally had a knob or pull-chain hanging out below the lamp burner that one could pull or turn to make the spark that hopefully would light the lamp (without blowing it up). It saved lots of trouble especially on windy/rainy nights. Ive got several varieties of these items in my collection of lamps/stuff. Occasionally they turn up on ebay.

Terry

[Terry Bond]

I think Ford was the last to hang on to the gas lamps - 1914 was really the last year although some very early 15's are shown with them fitted in sales literature. I know the early 15's used the same fork to mount the "new" electric headlamps. It is true that gas headlamps lingered on trucks much longer than on cars - well into the 20's I think. In Europe, they were in common use on motorcycles into the 20's also. I have some neat early aftermarket accessory catalogs in my collection that show gas headlamps being available into the late teens/early 20's.

Terry

Terry

[Restorer32]

We restored a 1928 Autocar 3 ton truck that still had gas headlights, an oil fired taillight and no electric starter. I've never come across a later vehicle with gas lamps.

[A. Woolf]

In 1913 or 14 Stanley introduced an electric ignitor for the gas lights that was controlled inside the car. I have only seen a couple of cars with the orignal setup. I don't know if it really worked or not.

Alan

[Rick Hoover]

Terry,

Do you have any idea who may have been the first to use electric headlamps in the brass era vehicles? Other than electric vehicles, that is. Anyone?

[D Binger]

I am sure that the ignitor and the flint striking devices worked. My personal thought is you had better have that front open so there is not a build up of gas and you light up that end of town. When I burn my headlights I always open fronts so that will not happen. Getting the correct height of the flame is important. It you get it to high there is a good posibility that you will crack or brake the glass reflector.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

My 1918 edition Dyke's Autmobile Handbook shows electric ignitors fitted to gas headlight burners; a wire electrode that fired from a high-tension coil, very much like "jump-spark "ignition...

Wow...a Cole with Prest-O-Lite gas starter...another gizmo documented in the Dykes book... !

Another down side to the acetylene lighting was the mess involved with the on-board gas generators...dripping water on calcium carbide makes for a mess inside the generator...if anybody has closely examined old acetylene clip-lights used by miners, cave explorers, etc, you'll know what I mean: they're usually ossified (and hopelessly plugged-up ?) inside from calcium deposits !

With regard to the required brightness of respective lamps on cars during this period, since many transportation elements were shared or decended from other forms of transport (Railroad, horse & carriage, marine), this might suggest some of the relevance...

The side and rear lamps on cars were "marker lights", and in such use on trains utilized oil-lamps until the very late 19th / early 20th century...oil marker lamps probably held on even after the advent of electric headlamps on locomotives.

Horse & buggies didn't go all that fast, so one didn't need to see very far ahead at night, so oil headlights might have been sufficient for old Dobbin.

But, as the horse and horseless carriage gave way to multi-cylinder cars capable of "great speeds", seeing the road ahead became more critical, thus the need for brighter lights.

Cowl and tail lights were still "marker lights", so oil lamps were still sufficient (and cheaper to make and operate).

Many houses built up until about 1925 were still being piped with illuminating gas and fixtures as a "back-up", even though they were elctrified as they were built...our 1917 colonial-revival in Scranton is one such house: there was at least one combination gas/electric wall-bracket (sconce) in each room...they were removed in all rooms but the 3rd floor attic "servants" space, during various redecorations through the years.

Electricity was still considered somewhat "unreliable" until at least the 1930's...

As for the 1928 Autocar truck, if it was manufactured without an electric starter, then gas headlighting makes sense, though this must have been one of the last factory installations of such equipment...

[D Binger]

Rick,

Cadillac had electric headlights very early, but I am not sure they were the first. I bet that there were others that had them before. Cadillac had electric starters earlier than a lot of other cars of that period also.

[nearchoclatetown]

Could it have been an early electric car that had the first electric lights?

[Guest Silverghost]

Many of the old carriage lamps were carried-over into the early automobile era. Oil lamps were just one of them. If you really look at some of these early autos they are truely "Horseless Carriages" some still had rings where you could hitch "Old Nellie" in case of a mechanical breakdown!!!

My 88 y/o Father says that every long trip in these early automobiles was a true adventure!!!

You never knew if you would get there...and back!!! The Tires were a big trouble issue.

Going from Philadelphia to Cape May or Atlantic City N.J.(95-120 miles) on vacation with several trunks on the running boards and rear luggage/ trunk carrier over dirt and sandy+ muddy un-improved roads was an all day adventure. You might often have 4-5 tires to fix or change in one day!!! What great fun they must have had!!!

[Rick Hoover]

Choc,

Yes they would have, but excluding electric cars, who was the first?

Dan,

That would be a 1912 Cadillac you'd be refering to. And the very first 1912 production Chevrolet had electric lighting also. But, it was a $125.00 option on all the others.

Anything earlier?

[Guest Silverghost]

Just a "Wild Guess" here...BUT... I would BET that Thomas Edison and his "Boys" were the first to rig-up electric lights on any car!!! After all He/They invented the electric light bulb in the first place!!!

Old Tom Edison liked electric cars...He owned sevral over the years...Don Williams had one of his at Hershey several years back at his "The Auction"!

(I think Don has owned at least HALF of the great old cars in existance at one time or another...some more than once!!!)

Edison and his crew were always trying to come-up with a better battery...one that lasted longer...was lighter...had more power/weight.

Folks are still trying to do this today...!!!

This is what held-up progress on electric cars!!!

At least the Electric Lights Worked-out!!!

[D Binger]

Rick,

Since Chevrolet had an option of electric lights as early as 1912, when did Cheverolet first use an electric starter? I know Buick first had electric starters as standard issue in 1914, but the Chevrolet still needed to be hand cranked.

[Rick Hoover]

Dan,

The first year for Chevrolet to come through standard with electric starters, was in 1917 on the 490's. However, the 1912 had a compressed air self starter. Actually, I show Chevrolet in 1914 using a optional Gray-Davis electric starter that was mounted on the front of the engine and then in 1915 they moved it back to the flywheel. Maybe we need Pinky to back all of this up, huh Dan?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

It makes sense that we would find the "first" electric headlamps on a car that already had some sort of battery/charging system on-board...

While not a "first", the so-called "electric T's" (refering to the first years with electric headlights (1914-1917?) were still starter-less; the headlights ran off the magneto...I believe they were also wired in series...if one burned out, they BOTH went out ! (Yipe!) ( I probably should have consulted Bruce McCalley's book before making this statement, but I'll take my chances...)

These "electric T's" also continued to run oil side lamps...

[Hornwrecker]

An excerpt from the story of how Byron Carter's death influence the developement of the electric starter from Autochannel history

<span style="font-style: italic">Two months after Kettering and his associate, William A. Chryst, began work on the auto starter, they gave a demonstration of it and Cadillac bought it. In fact, Cadillac bought more than a starter, because Kettering had integrated the starter -- adapted from the cash register motor -- into a complete ignition and electrical system which included a battery recharged by a generator run by the engine and electric headlights to replace acetylene lamps The system was installed on Cadillac's 1912 model, one of those very few cars that was truly an automotive milestone. </span>

Copyright 1996, Richard A. Wright

Published by Wayne State University's Department of Communications

So according to legend the 1912 Cadillac is the foist.

[ThomasBorchers]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An excerpt from the story of how Byron Carter's death influence the developement of the electric starter from Autochannel history

<span style="font-style: italic">Two months after Kettering and his associate, William A. Chryst, began work on the auto starter, they gave a demonstration of it and Cadillac bought it. In fact, Cadillac bought more than a starter, because Kettering had integrated the starter -- adapted from the cash register motor -- into a complete ignition and electrical system which included a battery recharged by a generator run by the engine and electric headlights to replace acetylene lamps The system was installed on Cadillac's 1912 model, one of those very few cars that was truly an automotive milestone. </span>

Copyright 1996, Richard A. Wright

Published by Wayne State University's Department of Communications

So according to legend the 1912 Cadillac is the foist. </div></div>

Yes, Hornwrecker is correct. Cadillac was the first car in world which used an electric start system. I own a 1912 Cadillac, this works great. And is has real bright head lights.

Regarding brass cars : I would say the will also called "Horseless Carriages", or ?

Tom

[Guest Ken G]

A few minor points not addressed so far.

1. In Britain the requirement to show lights while parked on the street after dark even when there was street lighting (except when there was a sign to the contrary) continued up into the 1960s. Frequently the street lighting was on a timer and turned off at mid-night; obviously no-one would legitimately be out and about after mid-night!

As an aside, I remember as a boy in England hearing the measured tread of a policeman on patrol in the middle of the night, and on one occasion he came to the front door to inquire whether all was well because my parents had accidentally left the hall light on. The policeman was the people's friend!

Incidentally, I noticed on a recent trip to New Zealand that the term "parking lights" in still in use there.

2. For parking lights, intended to operate for many hours without attention and where brightness was not much of an issue, oil was clearly much more practical and safer than acetylene.

3. I suspect that electric lights on cars depended not only on the existence of a battery and charging system but also on bulbs that would stand the vibration. Early bulbs were fragile and their filaments probably would not have lasted long in an automobile, especially over the roads of the early 20th century.

4. Perhaps irrelevant, but the head- and side-lights of my 1925 Rover are painted (dark green) but are in fact made of thin brass.

Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco)

[Bob McAnlis]

With regard to the earliest electric lights on cars, I can say that the Deemer - American Underslungs carried small brass electric drum sidelights. THese all bear out in the original literature. These cars were 1907, 1908, 1909, and 1910 and were well resored and documented by Walter Seeley inthe 1960s and 70s. Stories about them appear in early AA magazines.

These may not be the earliest, but they are my earliest experience on brass cars. The batteries for these were probably dry cells. Dry cells were carried for starting purposes on many early cars, before switching them over to their mags.

[D Binger]

Bob,

Thank you for the information. Good to know.

When were the first Mag powered lights used?

Dan

[Bob McAnlis]

Dan:

No, Sorry. The mags were for providing the ignition. Not running the lights. Cars were easier to START on the battery and then RAN much better after switching over to mag.

Switching gears, the first MAG lights, those nice little black flashlights, came out about 15 years ago. Wish I had one now. Indestructable....

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

"Cars were easier to START on the battery and then RAN much better after switching over to mag."

-Unless you're still trying to run your car off a rebuilt low-tension

mag in which case it runs better on battery..

Thanks,

Joe Kieliszek

[A. Woolf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> -Unless you're still trying to run your car off a rebuilt low-tension

mag in which case it runs better on battery.. </div></div>

Joe,

That is not a 100% true statment. Model T's run on low tension mags and when everything is set up properly and in good condition they run very well.

Alan

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I have heard that prolonged running off the battery in a "T" results in excessive pitting of the trembler points ?

Apparently this does not happen when running off the mag, because the mag produces an alternating current ?

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

No gripes from me about Model T's; when his old Buick is acting up,

my dad and I have ended up taking out his much more dependable

T huckster truck..

Thanks,

Joe