Original Miles

[West Peterson]

I've decided to start writing for George Carlin. Here I go...

Can anyone tell me just exactly what the difference is between a regular mile and an "original" mile? For instance, if someone advertises their car with 42,000 original miles, is that in addition to the number of regular miles it has on it? Is an original mile longer or shorter than a regular mile?

And what's the difference between a big cubic inch and a regular cubic inch? Once in a while I read where a car has a big cubic-inch block, or 455 big cubic inches, etc. If it were a big cubic inch, wouldn't that be more than a cubic inch?

Here's an ad I just love...

"1932 Swashbuckler Six [how many of those have you seen lately?

] 100% original, perfectly restored, 42,000 original miles..."

(Doesn't original mean unrestored? If it's unrestored, how can it be perfectly restored?)

Is that confusing? or what?

Okay... start throwing the tomatoes, I'm still wearing the poncho I was using at Hershey

[Guest greg72monte]

West,

The way I understood, original miles mean just that, original to the car and NOT turned back during a restoration, as opposed to a full restoration where the odometer has been turned back.

You might say that my 72 Monte Carlo has "37,000 original miles" because it has not been restored (except for a re-paint) and the odometer has not been turned back.

I agree, the term is WAY overused.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Greg, we need to introduce you to West's unique sense of humor which definitely will not cause George Carlin to quit his line of work! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That being said, we have many overused phrases and terms in our hobby (along with confusing ones). BTW, what's a classic car? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest greg72monte]

I don't know about the sense of humor, but if it's like mine, it makes no sense??

What I do know is West has been a GREAT editor, and that is what really matters.

[Guest]

I always thought the original miles on a car would be "0".

A question "If an internal combustion engine is an engine and an electric motor is a motor" why did the old saying go ""Keep on motoring" should it not have been keep on engining.

The only moting that I knew of in relation to an old car was then your generator motored (and soon burned out).

[West Peterson]

Aquarius: Both feet firmly planted in the air, and tongue firmly planted in cheek.

If I ever get too serious, start digging a hole... seriously.

[DizzyDale]

Dear West,Is posting a question like this your way of fighting thru some kind of writers block? kinda of grey and dreary day in Dayton,yea i thought so.diz

[Guest BruceW]

Either that or he's been working too long editing the next issue of Antique Automobile and is getting bored out of his noggin.

West.. get up.. back slowly away from the computer... then go do something like visit the Air Force Museum or the Cox Arboretum... for a few hours .... anything that doesnt have to do with cars.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I thought it was both illegal and unethical to turn the Odometer back, no matter how much work one did to the car...

It's only "new" once. If a car has zero (or let's say less than 100) miles on it, it might have been made 100 years ago; but if it's unused (or un-consumed), then it's still "new", right ?

For anyone who hates language abuse, I would highly recommend the following book: "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves"...it is a very funny and educational book about crimes against the English language...

[Ron Green]

Quote; "I thought it was both illegal and unethical to turn the Odometer back, no matter how much work one did to the car..."

It is. Unless things changed here in PA I believe it is a $10,000 fine and a possibility of jail time.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">get up.. back slowly away from the computer... then go do something like visit the Air Force Museum </div></div>

I went to the AF Musuem a couple of weekends ago when they had a WWI flying display. There was an AACA Region there as well. I don't remember which one without looking at my notes, but it was a touring region from Michigan I believe. Some interesting cars from the WWI era and earlier, including a Stoddard Dayton, Cadillac, Buick, and a few I've never even heard of before.

[Restorer32]

A guy stopped at our spaces at Hershey and introduced himself as "West Peterson". Had to be an imposter. This guy was waaay too young to be such a good editor. Identity theft maybe?

[Guest imported_jmarsicano]

West-

I totally agree! The term original is now so overused or bent into ones interpretation that it seems meaninless to me. My old chevy suburban still has its 331,000+ original miles.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy stopped at our spaces at Hershey and introduced himself as "West Peterson". </div></div>

I was looking for the apple you promised to all DF'ers.

[Guest BruceW]

West,

Our company has an office in Dayton.. actually Beaver Creek... that I get to once in awhile.. including occasional visits to Wright-Patt. Have ate many lunches at one of Dayton's fine dining establishments "Cold Beer and Cheeseburgers".

Was the region with the WWI era cars participating in the WWI display or on a visit while traveling through?

[Guest South_paw]

"Original miles" Hmmmm, To me it has always meant that the odometer has not turned over Don't forget most older cars odometers did NOT have a sixth digit. For example,if a car has 243,000 miles the odometer only shows 43,000 Now lets stir the pot, I'll bet a 43,000 mile car has more engine running hours than a 83,000 mile car.

[R W Burgess]

Steve asked about Classic Cars, had to ask, didn't ya? This past weekend, I was asked by a local town to judge their cars in the Fireman's Parade. Being the gentleman that I am, I said OK. I checked their registration sheet out to see what was preregistered, and noticed two classes, Antiques, and Classic Cars. I asked what the difference was, and they told me I was the one that was supposed to know. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Went to the field and clecked out the "Classic Cars", I already knew the antigues there. The lady in the 1989 Corvette explained to "me" that her insurance company told her that anything older than 15 years was a classic car. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure Chuck Conrad's group would like to hear from that insurance company.

I've got to make up some AACA Web Site business cards to point the people in the right direction!

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Barry Wolk]

From the CCCA web site http://www.classiccarclub.org/

"One of the most common questions asked on this Web Site is: "What exactly is a Classic Car?" The Club defines CCCA Classics or Full Classic? Cars as "...fine or unusual motor cars which were built between and including the years 1925 to 1948. (Some cars built prior to 1925 that are virtually identical to a 1925 model that is recognized by the Club are currently being accepted on a "Please Apply" basis). All of these are very special cars which are distinguished by their respective fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship." They were usually quite expensive when new with relatively low production figures. You won't find your Mom's '72 Plymouth Duster or your Grandfather's Model A Ford in the ranks of CCCA. We applaud other clubs who do recognize these cars and recognize that owning one can be a lot of fun, but they are not what CCCA is all about."

I spoke at length to members of the CCCA and the lady that is the head honcho. While my car fits all their criteria the age of my car is the only thing, in theirs eyes, that keeps my Mark II from being considered a "Classic". I still think its a classic.

I consider the '61-'69 Lincolns to have attained "Icon" status, like the Porsche Speedster. However, these were mass produced cars and that is very good for the collector because of parts availability, but bad because there were so many produced that the value is kept artificially low.

For example. Even though the Mark II's 2-year production never went much more than 3,000 they are still pretty cheap to buy today. Expensive to restore, but cheap to buy. Maybe that's why slabside prices haven't gone up all that much.

Continental Collection

[Barry Wolk]

Another point of view I posted elsewhere that you might find interesting.

This is Bob DeKorne of Hagerty Insurance's response:

"Hi Barry and fellow Lincoln enthusiasts: A challenging question to

answer in a single statement - one we obviously deal with hundreds of

times a day. Here's my best shot at it: A vehicle that, due to it's

care or reconditioning, holds a market value higher than it did when

purchased new.

That handles almost anything from the 60's and before quite easily -

even including most high production vehicles that were pretty mundane in

their day. It addresses the 70's cars from the "low horsepower/big

bumper" era if they are in great shape, too. It also addresses the

limited production cars or exotics from the 80's or 90's pretty well -

if they are used hard, they do depreciate and may not qualify for

collector car insurance. It also handles the rare exotics from today -

such as an Enzo, that sold for $650-$750 and are now trading above a

million.

The formula gets a little sticky with modified cars, which we try to

judge on a case by case basis. Take a "new build" street rod, for

example, where a guy spent $100K creating it (including labor). 9 out

of 10 wouldn't trade on the market for $100K, even if flawless and

undriven, so almost every one is "upside down" value wise right from the

start. In those cases, and really, any situation that is very unique,

comparables from the market or a valid appraisal are about as good as it

gets.

That being said, just owning such a car isn't a guarantee that a

collector car agency will be able to say "Yes" automatically. At

Hagerty, we profile the family drivers (driving record, past claims

history, storage situation, etc) as much or more than the car itself,

and both pieces have to fit. Experience in the hobby, size of the

fleet, intended usage, and the type of "daily driver" vehicles in the

household are also factors we consider.

We understand that collectors are often anticipating a rise in vehicle

value when making a purchase (hey, I want a good deal when I buy a car,

too!), as well as the "fun" factor in our hobby. Leave the "making

money" thought to the professionals, but obviously, we all like the

concept of an investment that also turns heads and is fun to drive.

That's why the market has been so strong the past 10 years. My

suggestions are simple - do your homework and get as much documentation as possible, buy the best condition you can find (afford), and own these beauties because you love them rather than to make money.

I'm available at bdekorne@hagerty.com or 231 933 3766 anytime. Hope to

see you all at Barrett Jackson in a couple of weeks, and in the

meantime, please drive safely and enjoy your cars!"

Bob DeKorne

Continental Collection

[Shop Rat]

West,

A speedometer measures speed. That one is easy.

What the heck is an odo? And do we really need a meter to measure it, whatever it is?

[Guest BruceW]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "One of the most common questions asked on this Web Site is: "What exactly is a Classic Car?" The Club defines CCCA Classics or Full Classic? </div></div>

The web site really didn't answer the question in general. The answer provided pertains to a "CCCA Classic".... meaning classics within the CCCA Organization, or what they also call "Full Classic". Outside of the CCCA, the word still can be interpreted in many different ways.

One of the ironies I find about the term "classic" is that one of the definitions in the dictionary for "classic" as a noun is "a typical or traditional example".

If a classic as per CCCA descriptions is decribed as "unusual" "quite expensive" and "relatively low production", then it could not be considered very typical or very traditional. In contrast, a Ford Model T was considered a typical car of its era. That sounds more traditional than a "low production", "unusual" car.

Ok.. I gave myself a headache.. time to go.......

[Joe Block]

Do like your holes 6 to 10 feet deep or shallow?

[Joe Block]

More seriously, what do call an orginal car, i.e untouched! Unrestored! Virgin!

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">West,

A speedometer measures speed. That one is easy.

What the heck is an odo? And do we really need a meter to measure it, whatever it is? </div></div>

Susan,

I never mentioned speedometer, but if you like, I'll try and come up with something.

Second. I never mentioned odo, either, but I know that an odo is a meter that measures miles... more typically run together as... odometer.

[Shop Rat]

West,

I was the one bringing them up. Just in fun.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

An "odo" is an ancient Roman unit of measurement first devised to quantify the Appian Way. The odo-meter was a gizmo with a wheel and pointer that counted the "odos" as it was rolled along.

Okay...I made a fair part of that up...

Actually the "odometer" distance measuring wheel DOES really go back to "Classical" (ancient Greek & Roman) times. It's pretty much the same thing that you see the gas & water company rolling along the street when they're measuring before a dig.

For Joe Packard '42...."what do you call a "virgin", untouched old car" ?

Well, there's varying degrees of that...if you look at some of the cars that appear in Hemmings Collectible Car magazine, you see wide variety of unrestored cars in terms of condition. On "My Classic Car" last week, Dennis Gage ("Mr. Moustache") visited the car collection of the owners of National Auto Parts Depot, whose specialty is low-mileage, original-condition cars...and they have lots - from the 'teens through the '70's. I believe one of them is a '41 or '42 Continental that is essentially a "new" (un-used) car: the original owner bought two: one to drive, and the other as a "parts car" when he learned of the suspension of civilian production during the war. Apparently the driver held-up just fine, and the "parts car" sat un-molested for 50 years. I didn't get what the actual mileage is, but Dennis kept going-on about it being a "new" Continental. So I imagine whatever has racked-up on the odometer is simply from moving the car about between storage/display locations.

It did look pristine.

Then there's HPOF: Historic Preservation of Original Features...I think any unrestored/unmodified car in presentable condition probably falls into this bracket. But, there must be a majority percentage of original paint, interior, mechanical parts ,etc.

There's a fellow in Eastern PA with a very solid '29 Oakland roadster. The entire car is original, unrestored, except for the engine, which had to be rebuilt due to catastrophic internal failure. So, do you take away points for the engine rebuild ? Heck, the tires he's driving on are even older than I am !

Then you get to cars like my '41 De Soto: previous owner repaint in original black, JC WHitney interior (not even remotely like stock), otherwise "completely original", except for things like spark plugs, fuel pump, brake system full rebuild, tires. Even the rust in the floor, trunk, and rear door skins is "original". Most folks would call it a "jalopy".

I see 1920's -'30's sedans at shows, some of them nice restos, others are great survivors...I'm constantly amazed at what people are finding in old garages and barns...at Scranton Region show this past July, someone showed-up with a '29 or '30 Buick touring car: completely intact survivor - still wearing it's original TOP ! The car was from the Stroudsburg-Easton area, and I think it might have been sporting a parking sticker from Lafayette College from the 1930's.

Enough rambling...original has degrees: there's original "survivor" ("fair" to "nice"), but there's also original "junk" ("it's parked in the same spot out in the field where the original owner parked it in 1940").

Maybe "original mileage" should refer to the miles put on the vehicle by the "original owner"...

My '61 Belvedere did have 32,000 original-owner miles on it when I purchased it in 1989. My Mom and I purchased a '62 Falcon from the orignal owner in 1986: that car had 92,000 "original-owner miles"...he was 94, and still had the original bill of sale: he bought the Falcon when he retired from National Cash Register, in Dayton, O and traded-in his 1954 Ford Mainline.

One more "original car story"...about 15 years ago, a local car collecter opened a museum here in Wilkes-Barre: Reillys' Old Cars. Among the various vehicles was a 1930-ish Auburn Sedan. It was dark blue and had yellow wire wheels. The car was completely un-restored, with something like 8,000 miles on it and supposedly wearing the orignal tires ! They were very old Goodyears, were flat, and the rubber was literally beginning to fall-off the fabric plies.

I would call that one "original", no doubt.

How many hairs do we want to split ?

[stexch]

In Kansas, vehicles over a certain age (I believe ten years) are exempt from odometer laws. They still get the mileage off the odometer when the vehicle is registered, but you don't have to swear under penalty of perjury that the mileage is true, correct, and accurate. Having said that, I find the practise of resetting odometers to zero at restoration to be detrimental to the hobby, because you are unneccessarily destroying a fact about the car's history.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

"Having said that, I find the practise of resetting odometers to zero at restoration to be detrimental to the hobby, because you are unneccessarily destroying a fact about the car's history. "

Here-here ! Huzzah !

[Guest imported_CarFreak]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Then there's HPOF: Historic Preservation of Original Features...I think any unrestored/unmodified car in presentable condition probably falls into this bracket. But, there must be a majority percentage of original paint, interior, mechanical parts ,etc. </div></div>

That's what I don't understand - I look at the HPOF cars on the field at Hershey, etc. and see repainted cars with retouched engines and/or new upholstery. What I can't figure out is - what is historical about a repainted car? We are talking completely repainted.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "One of the most common questions asked on this Web Site is: "What exactly is a Classic Car?" </div></div>

Everyone should know the answer to that question. A classic car is a 1965 Ford Mustang convertible painted re-sale red.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought it was both illegal and unethical to turn the Odometer back, no matter how much work one did to the car...</div></div>

Maybe they weren't turning the odometer back at all but instead turning it forward.