AACA Museum - Wheres the beef?

[Guest]

i can take a lot of bad-mouthing,but I draw the line at Homer and his family! I think he is a American Motors man...

You every see that '48 buick convertible at Disney world in the MGM studio... sad.. very sad.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Doug, if you love the Speedway Museum you should see the basement! There are more cars in the basement than up top since they are crammed in...it is mind boggling. Also, the family has their private collection in a building between 3 and 4. I got my first look in there a few years ago and saw some very interesting vehicles. Tried to buy two of them but failed to get anywhere.

[Dynaflash8]

I believe I enjoyed my first visit to the AACA Museum as much as any automobile museum I was ever in (ducking rocks here <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) but it is true. Maybe I'm not a museum person? No, I think I enjoyed the displays a lot, especially the gas station display, or maybe it is because I felt I had some stake in the place. The Harrah Collection in Reno was my biggest disappointment, that one is easy to say. I've always wanted to visit the Auburn-C-D Museum in Indiana, but never have gotten there and my second favorite Museum was the Crawford Collection in Cleveland despite all that has been said here, because I didn't know all of what has been said here. I've never seen the Nethercutt Collection, and I'm sure it is terrific, but I suspect it has only cars I could never have seen outside of AACA or certainly never owned or had any association with and I guess memories excite me more than most. I had a pretty wonderful first 18 years that were associated with cars and most of all I like to see those I somehow remember or others, like the Washington automobile, that I heard my grandfather talk about and describe, because he had owned one. I did live to see one of those, on display at the 1995 Hagerstown Meet. That was truly a thrill for me, and I've never seen it again.

[JB-ed]

A wonderful thread. Until recently the Crawford was my most favorite. Now possibly Ford-Dearborn because of the large number of very early-very original cars. Unfortunately the guy who nearly brought VMCCA to its knees about five years ago is now managing Crawford. He seems to see no future in the very early cars and has talked the museum's directors into going modern. Let's hope he departs as quickly as his predecessors.

While diaroma in museums can be regarded as "dumbing down," they also can be used as an excellent means of placing the vehicles in context. For years and years, long before the diarama craze, the Crawford had an as-is Thomas Flyer from one of the transcontinental tours sitting in a recreated garage of the era complete with tools and other, including straw on the floor. Since a child I have been fascinated by this scene. The Ford museum is starting to gather its collection of non-automotive items into diaromas with appropriate cars to present them in the context of their times. It's been said cars go to a museum to die, so perhaps the diaroma restores a bit of life to them. I don't necessarily see this as dumbing down, depending on how done. So far Ford is OK.

I once proposed to the Crawford some context-based exhibits, such as displaying an array of engines in chronological order to show the general public how the technology evolved. many ideas like this can best utilize the various pieces and parts that accumulate in a museum.

Now unfortunately, I see in Hemmings that the Crawford has hired one of the predators of our hobby to sell off their extensive collection of spare parts. When will it end?

[Guest]

Maybe I am showing my ignorance, but isn't a diorama a combination of the object on display blending into a created painted art background? A vehicle set in a complete scene like a car in a recreated gas station is a display of all REAL objects and not a combination of object and art, as in a diorama. That is a more easily rotated display form than is a fixed diorama. Parts and fixtures of a display may be moved around and reused in new settings, but a diorama is a more permanent display form. At least I think it is.

I personally prefer real historic objects around the vehicles, to painted backdrops. The National Automobile Museum in Reno is a good example of cars displayed in period scenes comprised of true period objects. The old Harrah's collection was just that, a collection. I went there once and never saw reason to go back. Yet I go to the N.A.M almost every time I spend a full day in Reno.

Whether we all agree on this issue or not, is NOT the point. This discussion is worthwhile if for no other reason than it brings people's thoughts, feelings and diverse ideas out into the open. Some good may come of that. Just let us not get our undies in a knot over opinions expressed by those with whom we disagree.

Just my opinion, but as I have said before, I could be wrong.

hvs

[Steve Moskowitz]

di.o.ram.a, a three-dimensional minature or life-size scene in which figures, stuffed wildlife, or other objects are arranged in a naturalistic setting against a painted background. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Question, answered..or not! This is a great thread and probably points out that we all look for different things in this hobby. A friend has a personal museum of all brass cars, I am the happiest there. However, how can you not be bowled over by JB's collection, the National, and many other fine Museums. Never have been to Owl's Head, been to the Larz Anderson, R.E.Olds Museum, etc. How many more are out there? Are any of them doing something unique. I do like the National's voice activated displays.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

billy...

I totally agree with the educational aspect of our museum, if, for any other reason, the emphasis the AACA is putting on garnering the interest of youth. I agree with others, that, it is a young museum. Give it a chance to grow. Having known and recently met more of the "volunteers", there is a cadre of extremely knowledgeable "old iron" people within the volunteer brigade. That reassures me, that, in addition to the staff, we as members of the AACA can rest assured our museum has a lot of human pulse paying attention to it.

In addition, the "fact" that the displays will be changed periodically utilizing the practically unlimited resource of AACA Members volunteering to display there autos makes the future exciting to re-visit. In so many words, our museum is not limited to donated cars. When the Mustang Celebration exhibit is changed, there will be another display of member's cars to look forward to seeing...on-and-on over our remaining years on this planet.

(Take Ron Green's gorgeous '55 Pontiac, for example. It was on display for about 6 months at the museum. Then, I saw it 1 1/2 weeks ago on the show field at Hagerstown, Md. The supply of fresh display vehicles is enormous...keep re-visiting when in the Hershey area!)

[1937hd45]

I forgot all about one of the best ever, The Briggs Cunninghan Collection when it was out in California. I knew John Burgess the curator at the time I went out there. He walked over to the 1927 G.P. Delage, and asked if I'd like to hear it? SURE! He opened a door behind it and fired it up, every car in that collection was a runner.I'd been looking at the photo of that Delage since I was 10 years old, to see it in real life AND hear it run was a real thrill. The collection is in Florida now, but I don't know if it is open to the public. While in Florida be sure to stop in and see AACA member Don Garlits Musuem of Drag Racing, sure there are more drag cars under one roof than anyother place but there is a building full of restored cars, many with AACA ovals.

[K8096]

JB-ed,

The Thomas Flyer exhibit is still at Crawford, I don't think they'll touch that. They used to have about a 1908 or so Maxwell runabout that was in the basement right next to the Thomas Flyer that anyone could sit in. Some of the delicate pieces had been taken off, but it was a real car the kids could sit and play in and pretend to drive. This display was there at least from the early 70's to the late 90's, possibly even earlier. Several years ago it vanished, so we asked what happened to it. The museum said a "big kid broke it." I don't know exactly what happened, maybe they were jumping on it & a spring broke or something like that.

I used to have a 59K mile original '50 Cadillac 61 coupe that was an HPOF car that I drove from Cleveland to Hershey to get the HPOF in 1997. It was a very nice original car, and was the "stock" version of what Briggs Cunningham raced at LeMans in 1950. I traded it for something more desirable in 1999. About 2001, the CLC Museum in Detroit contacted me about the car because they were having a display about the 1950 LeMans Cadillacs and I think they were even getting the original race car on loan. They wanted to buy mine (which I didn't have anymore) so they could have one that the general public could sit in. I took it to be more like "one the general public could destroy the beautiful original interior of!" I told them I didn't have it anymore and wouldn't tell them where it went either. A fellow long time AACA member still has it & is preserving it properly.

[Guest]

Yep Steve, question answered.

One of the finest dioramas I have ever seen is in Atlanta and depicts the Civil War Battle of Atlanta with a combination of miniature figures blending into art work depicting the entire battle. You cannot distinguish where the figures end and the artwork starts. I'm sure it is much more difficult to do it with life size vehicles and an artwork background.

Many prefer the approach used by the National Automobile Museum in Reno. Cars and actual life size objects in the background. No, I don't expect the people in the displays to be real.

When the Museum was still in the planning stages, a future Museum President and I toured in the west checking out museums for ideas for the future AACA Museum. Of the museums we visited, the one in Reno offered what we perceived to be the best format.

Now, I think the time has come for me to exit this thread as I have nothing more to add.

hvs

[K8096]

Dynaflash8,

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you like Harrah's? I was never there until 2 years ago where I saw "the remnents." I have two of the auction catelogues from 1983/1984 and still drool over them regularly. So many rare original conditions cars!

[Guest imported_klb]

Reading this thread makes me want to jump in the car and head out to see the AACA Museum!

Ok, I haven't been to a lot of museums. The Gilmore, the ACD Museum (and the NATMUS nearby), the museum in LaPorte IN, and a handfull of small museums spread around the central part of the country. This latter group could almost be called roadside museums as they are generally located with-in site of some highway or another, and I suspect mostly repositories of mainly private collections.

So I'm no expert at judging museums.

It's been asked whether museums are repositories of history or entertainment centers. I'd guess that to some extent a museum today may need to be a bit of both.

Get people in the doors with the entertainment aspect and then entrall them with the history?

Possible? I don't know, but maybe worth considering. If a museum is only speaking to the diehard auto enthusiast the history angle may be enough. But can a museum survive with only the hardcore car lover as an audience?

On the other hand, if a museum speaks disproportionately to the entertainment aspect will it lose the interest of those dedicated to the preservation of automotive history, who may also be the most likely to become a contributor to the museum, at least in the shorter term?

Where's the common ground between these two concepts?

The 57 Chevy, the Chrysler 300 series, and the muscle cars didn't just happen. There's a lot of history behind those cars. Can making that history come alive be a bridge for the entertainment to cross into becoming an autmotive history buff, a lover of the prewar cars as well as the postwar cars?

If so, how to make the history come alive and get folks to cross the bridge?

[Guest Stephen Lyons]

"Of the musuems that I have been to that I will never go to again was the one at the Imperial Palace Hotel in Las Vegas. Of the musuems that I did see in Las Vegas, there was nothing in any of them that impressed me at all. I've seen a better selection of cars at cruise nights and meets."

I'm with you on this. The Imperial Palace display used to be at least interesting if a bit eccentric. Once they sold virtually everything off, they evidently couldn't let go of having a "car collection" in the house since that is that particular casino's longstanding "gimmick." I also was very disappointed in it when I went through there a couple years back. Not a complete waste of time, there were a few items of interest to me, but the overwhelming majority of the vehicles there now are evidently "loaned" for display because they are for sale by the owners. Many are ordinary, & some frankly shabby. I walked through for free with a coupon. I would not pay to see it, nor would I go out of my way to see it again.

The last museum I was through was the Blackhawk in Danville, CA. Some magnificent & very special automobiles, & certainly not biased toward post-war models, all dramatically displayed under spotlighting in a blacked out environment. A little sterile in presentation perhaps, but I would definitely go back, even knowing nothing had been rotated in or out.

[1937hd45]

K8096, I was at Harrah's three times, the last visit was in 1975, IT WAS GREAT! For those that never got to see it in its glory days you need to get a copy of Dean Batchelor's book "Harrah's Automobile Collection". This will give you a good idea of what went into building the collection, the John Lamm photos give you a great view of the quality of the cars.

Howard, If you like the look of the Harrah collection now I guess all is not lost with the collection, just a huge down sizeing.

The Blackhawk Collection is another great one I hope to see someday.

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, I'm glad you brought up Don Garlits' museum. The man never threw anything away in his 50 year career and now it's all on display.Hours could be spent looking at details of his and others' raceing career and everything is labeled in glass cases. My wife was bored looking at pistons melted to connecting rods, that were welded to crankshafts, but I was fascinated. And he has several things from Smokey Yunick's garage, too. Not exactly AACA, but automotive anyway.

[1937hd45]

Steven, I agree, The Imperial Palace Collection was a waist of time. You could have a far better time loosing money at the tables in any other casino than taking the half hour walk around that place.

[1937hd45]

All I have to do is assemble the Chevy motor and my Lyndwood rail is finished. If I bring it to a Florida meet I could take a current photo with Garlits restored Swamp Rat III, just like this one from 1962.

[Dynaflash8]

Why was I disappointed in the Harrah Collection? Too much of the same types of vehicles that were simply not the types of vehicles I wanted to see, many on loan from entertainers.....purely a personal matter of taste on my part. There were umpteen of some makes and none or one of others that were of particular interest to me. The one car that I really enjoyed seeing at the old Harrah's collection in 1973 was a 1922 Dagmar which at the time was thought to be the only one....but now there are two. It had been found in Long Island, NY, very dilapidated, restored, shown and driven by a member of our Region (the late Charles Glanzer) and sold to Harrah for the fabulous sum of $10,000. Seeing it again was exciting, but then: When I saw it there, there was no mention of Mr. Glanzer or his restoration, or that it came from New York and was restored in Baltimore, etc. Harrah's had only bought it and displayed it, nothing else. The restorer who had saved it got no credit. This alone left me with a bad taste in my mouth along with everything else that wasn't what I'd expected to see. Certainly this is probably not unusual, but it did turn me off at the time. By the way, this car was later sold, and eventually made it's way back to Maryland. It was at the AACA National Meet in Gaithersburg several years ago. The second car, later discovered and restored, was at the Hagerstown National Meet a couple of weeks ago. The Dagmar cars were built by the Moller Organ Company of Hagerstown, MD.

[1937hd45]

Bill Harrah had a special attraction to Ford, Franklin and Packard automobiles and had one from every year of manufacture, something we'll never see again in a collection. I think he may have had more "Only One Known to Exist" cars than any other collection. You could walk through the restoration shops and see the cars going back to as new condition, that was a great feature.

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, I'll bet Big could tell you what he had for lunch the day that picture was taken. I remember reading an article on Harrah's that said they subscribed to every automotive publication in the world, for their library.

[1937hd45]

That is one of my favorite Lyndwood photos. Garlits was touring with his car and running exhibition runs."The Modifiers" car had spin a bearing and the lower end was all apart, they didn't have a spair set at the track. A team mate was sent home and fished through a trash can for the set they had replaced the nite before. Got it back together and turned fastest time of the day behind the Garlits exhibition run.

[poci1957]

Ken has stated it well--that the significant modern museum should be a repository of history AND and entertainment center. That is that if a museum is too lightweight it will lose the interest of the hardcore enthusiast, but if it is too "heavy" it will not interest the more casual visitor. No one has mentioned it, but I really like the Walter P Chrysler Museum in Auburn Hills. For the casual visitor, it has dioramas to "place" the cars in history, it has a good interactive displays, timelines, and videos to tell some stories, and it has a variety of attractive cars in a clean attractive setting. It also has a basement with lots more vehicles that can be inspected for their finer points, and arranged in rows in a garage-like setting that is enjoyable for the more experienced viewer AND the casual alike. Personally the Gilmore is probably the facility that interests me the most as a veteran car guy, but I think anyone interested in making the AACA museum an outreach to the public and members alike should consider some of what the WPC has done here, I think it is outstanding. The only thing that may be at issue is that the displays are very permanent, I don't think they could change them easily, so you will see moslty the same thing on every visit. Todd C

[ex98thdrill]

From what I saw of the Imperial Palace, that is nothing more than an indoor used car lot on the Vegas strip that specializes in antique cars. Nothing was in chronological order, there were no themes, and most of the stuff probably wouldn't be good enough for a 1st Junior, yet they wanted ridiculous prices.

..High class prices, low class quality, no class atmosphere and you too can pay to see their so called museum.

[nearchoclatetown]

Since no one else has brought it up, I will. EMMR, Eastern Museum of Motor Racing, in Latimore Valley, Pa. is also an excellant museum. Displays are of dirt, motorcycle, oval, Indy, go kart, drag,snow mobile racing and I probably forgot a few. There are engines and cars on display dating to at least the 20's. Best part is, the museum is all volunteer. Admission is by donation. It's about 30-40 minutes from a cold and rainy Hershey fall meet.

[Guest rcirilli]

Everyone that knows me well also knows I served on the Museum board for two years prior to it's opening. As those same people know I had a lot of disagreements with the way some things were done, mainly some decision making practices BUT...... there was good sound business practices taken into account when the plan was put together. The board met with museum operators to learn what methods had the best chance to succeed. Yes I said the best chance to succeed, there are no garrentees just because it is affilaited with AACA. Museums are monumental tasks and business that fail more offen that gas station when they were privately owned.

About the Tucker collection, it was believed that it would come as soon as the museum was built. As someone once told me "sometimes S--- happens" and it did in that regard. While the Tucker did fail in product it is a very important part of automotive history and we will be lucky to get it one day.

Is the museum dummed down, well maybe yes but tell me anything that isn't these days that succeeds. I don't like it, but it is life. Another problem was that monitary needs were greatly under estimated and when that was realized it was well under way. Approximately 60% of needed funds were obtained. Delays in starting it would have been painful with regard to prior commitments. Nuff said about that.

As I said earlier there are a lot of things that I was not happy about during the process but day in and day out I'm glad it is there. With a lot of luck one day it may have everything planned for it and be the educational institution it needs to be. It requires a lot "a lot" of volunteers, they do there best. One day maybe it will even have the endowment it truly needs. Lets hope ! The library finally got to that point a couple of years ago. It is only fitting to honor those who have given so much to date it it does reach that goal.

[Al Smeraldo]

I have been to the AACA museum twice. Once on the Sunday after Hershey and back again when I ran a meet to there for our region. [We are about 2 hours away.]what I liked most was talking with some of the volunteers. At the bus display I had quite a conversation with a fellow who had actually driven some of them for a living. His insights were very interesting. The thought occurs to me that the museum would be a great venue for seminars on all kinds of subjects that would be of interest to the serious collectors. Perhaps early during Hershey week when there are a lot of people in town or maybe weekend retreat type of things. We do seminars at the national meeting. How much better could they be with the actual vehicles in view.

[MMV]

Thank you Howard!! As a member of the AACA Library and Research Board I am aware of where our funds come from. On an indivdual basis the Library has recieved donations from several of the AACA Museum members. As Howard stated;--the Library Board members distibute and sell by far the most tickets for the Mustang Raffele (the biggest fund raiser each year). When the Museum was in its foundling years the Library Board members agreed to share half of the proceeds of the Mustang Raffle with them. And it continues!

[1937hd45]

That is a sad reminder of two cars I was in partnership with. I got to store the cars in my garage, take them to flea markets, advertize them and on one occasion deliver it. Then hand over 50% of the sale price to my "partner". Some say I'm a slow learner.

[Guest HeyPop]

I just recently got to do a visit to the museum after talking about ever since seeing the first drawings and talks about it on line. I too was somewhat disappointed with the displays after being exposed to so many knowledgeable folks from the AACA site. Although a little disappointed I think museums are going the way of popular thought. I've noticed more and more at the car shows I go to, that the cars you see the most of are the cars identified with todays 30-50 year olds. At a recent local show I was to, and actually displayed my Model A, the majority of "antique vehicles " were from the 60's and 70's. Prewar cars numbered 5 and because of the low number weren't even considered during the judging process in the "antique" class. One was even a Pullman from York! It would be great to be able to have the whole history of the automobile on display for all to see, but the normal daily flow of visitors to most any museum is there just to look and not learn. What a shame but true. If they can identify with what they see because of personal experiences all the better but alas... those of the age to appreciate prewar vehicles (other than those of us who love to restore them) are no longer able to make the trip to the place they're displayed. What a joy it would be to some to have the cars come to them .. but that's another story in itself. Rather than ramble on I'll say I liked what I saw. It's a begining. As a a person interested in sharing what I know and love of these automobiles, I was a little disappointed too but don't always rely on others to further our cause and hobby. Get out there and talk to as many people as you can who show even a little interest in you car or truck or whatever you drive that's old enough to be considered interesting and worthwhile. It's to is a start...