Ceramic Finish

[Deadpurpledog]

Thinking about adding ceramic coating to recently painted Riviera.  Please share your thoughts and experiences.  Seems pretty expensive and I don’t know how to tell the difference between ceramic coating and an hour wax job!

[prewarnut]

There's two levels to consider. I use a nanoparticle sealant that is wiped on and then wiped off (on my modern cars). It lasts 6-8 months - far better than my best wax. It doesn't have a residue (i.e. no cleaning of emblems, trim, etc). What I use is made in Hungary and can't be easily purchased here but there are a few things on the market. Then there is the ceramic coating. That is generally professionally applied. it should last a year or more and provides a more tangible layer over the paint. This is what helps some cars to look like they are dipped in gloss, if you will. Both need good paint, ideally polished so no major orange peal. However this doesn't always look right on older cars never painted and polished this way. Also many modern cars don't "respond well" because you start to see all the imperfections near stampings like the gas filler flap, doors, emblems, complex creases the designer penned but didn't execute well.... Despite their high prices I've seen polishing and too high a gloss coating bring out imperfections on my Porsches and BMWs. I've seen this problem on Maserati, definitely GM products, Volvo....If you have a RR, Ferrari, Bentley you're all set. MB is up the middle these days. There's a ton to read about. I'd say no harm in the wipe on products. The sealants are DIY so you can simply try if you want. The ceramic coating can only be reversed by polishing off. Overall, the higher level of polishing and then going all the way to ceramic coating is where you can get reflections "hovering" over the layer of paint. It's hard to describe but if you see it in person with a discerning eye then you'll understand. I just about attain that with polishing and sealant so I stop there...
 

[TAKerry]

I was wanting to have it done on my trans am. The quote for 'paint correction and coating' was about $1500. I am knee deep in a restoration process so theres no money in the coating budget at this time. I have seen some cars that have had it done and they were beautiful jobs. Owners were very pleased.  The selling point to me is that it just needs a light spray and wipe down and its all good again. Also have been told on a car used minimally and kept in a garage it should last a couple of years. No idea on how true any of that is.  There are a lot of diy products now but I am afraid to use them. I dont want to end up with 3x's the amount of work if I mess something up on installation. I have been told the pro stuff is far better than off the shelf, BUT then again that might be what the pro's want you to hear? 

[60FlatTop]

I use a product called Black Ice. It is at the low end of cost and complexity from what I have seen. It leaves a very smooth finish. The big promotion is the longevity of the product. That really doesn't mean much to me because there is hardly a week that goes by in good weather that I am not putting a little polish or buffing a small section of one of the shiny cars.

 

[vintage1]

On all my cars, vintage and new I always used Meguiar's carnauba wax. I purchased a new Porsche a couple of years ago and decided to try a DIY ceramic wax/coating. I have been disappointed in the results. After about 3 months water no longer beads off and there is no depth to the shine.  I went over the car with Meguiar's polish and then carnauba wax and the paint looks like it did in the showroom. This is just my personal opinion but I think I will stick with the old wax process.

 

[EmTee]

10 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

hinking about adding ceramic coating to recently painted Riviera.

I'd be leery of putting anything like a sealant over a fresh paint job.  I'd probably wait 3 to 6 months before doing anything.

[TAKerry]

3 hours ago, vintage1 said:

On all my cars, vintage and new I always used Meguiar's carnauba wax. I purchased a new Porsche a couple of years ago and decided to try a DIY ceramic wax/coating. I have been disappointed in the results. After about 3 months water no longer beads off and there is no depth to the shine.  I went over the car with Meguiar's polish and then carnauba wax and the paint looks like it did in the showroom. This is just my personal opinion but I think I will stick with the old wax process.

 

I read somewhere that a good quality carnuba wax is the best coating. The problem with Carnuba though is that it does not last very long exposed to the elements and for a daily driver car would need to be done several times a year. I use it on my TA and only do a thorough job with the carnuba maybe twice a year but with a lot of touch up in between with spray detailer wax.

[ABear]

On 4/14/2024 at 12:56 AM, Deadpurpledog said:

Thinking about adding ceramic coating to recently painted Riviera.  Please share your thoughts and experiences.  Seems pretty expensive and I don’t know how to tell the difference between ceramic coating and an hour wax job!

I wouldn't.

 

"Ceramic" coatings are not "ceramic" at all.

 

The base to pretty much all "ceramic" paint treatments is within the "family" of SILICON.

 

SIO2  or Silicone Dioxide to be exact.

 

Derived from quartz rock unlike the Silicone used in caulking which is derived from "silica sand".

 

The Silicone is what gives the "beading" effect of water and many other liquids.

 

Silicon in paint is a contaminate, if for any reason you need to touchup, repair, repaint what has been contaminated with Silicone it will be a time consuming, frustrating, difficult expensive job.

 

At least with any waxes that do not contain Silicone you can easily clean them off and be able to repair or repaint fairly easily.

 

If you have painted using modern day urethane two part paints (AKA "epoxy paint" which is Paint plus activator sort of like you do with an epoxy glue) and clear coatings, you really do not "need" to apply any other coatings including wax.

 

I get it, you want the thing to shine like a mirror and water to bead like nobody's business.. If that is the case then wax it..

 

But myself, I don't even bother with wax, just a good wash with soapy water and done.. Been doing it this way since two part urethane paints came out in the 1980s.. Yeah, water doesn't "bead" as much, but I am not wearing off layers of paint with each wax and I am not contaminating the paint with Silicone.

 

Carry on..

[Scooter Guy]

As with many things, the results lie almost completely in the prep. 

If the surface is exceptionally good, the ceramic coating looks nice. If the surface is not so good and is full of defects and needs (broadly defined) "paint correction" then that's what it needs before ceramic coating will do you any good. The ceramic is just the last step. 

 

Ceramic coating is currently the hot thing in the detailing world, but I wonder if anyone could really tell a difference between a ceramic coated car and one that is just really clean and well prepped, but perhaps waxed instead. I have personally watched the professional ceramic coating process and assure you there is more going on in the prep phase than the coating phase and I can do all of that myself. I occasionally will wax my car, but honestly my approach is that the less I mess with the paint, the better off I am. In my case it's thin and somewhat fragile original lacquer, so I don't like to be grinding on it very often. Always by hand, never with power tools...to easy to burn through. 

[ABear]

2 hours ago, Scooter Guy said:

Ceramic coating is currently the hot thing in the detailing world, but I wonder if anyone could really tell a difference between a ceramic coated car and one that is just really clean and well prepped, but perhaps waxed instead.

I have a friend who had ceramic coating applied, to me, I saw zero difference, pretty much looked like it did when he waxed it. He likes it, I call it a expensive failure.

 

I have seen some newer vehicles which have a super high gloss shine which they never came from factory that way. Could be a well done wax job or ceramic, don't know, never asked.

 

As you mention a lot of the "shine" comes from prep work, not the final finish like wax or ceramic. Most super high gloss jobs are the result of using super fine abrasives and progressing to even finer abrasives. Clay baring is typically involved with that process towards the end of prep.. And yes, clay bar is and abrasive so each step does remove some paint..

 

To me, not worth the headaches or hassles and removing paint to make it shine more which eventually leads to needing a paint job..

 

These ceramic coatings are a really new thing which appeal greatly to those who are firmly entrenched with the old school ideology that one MUST "seal" the paint or it will go bad and don't want to devote every weekend to waxing (which isn't needed either). The problem is, no one really knows exactly how long a ceramic coating is going to last, it most likely will need to be reapplied after a few yrs and once you start using it, you are committed to continue on using it.

 

Myself, I have used PPG DCC paints, they actually stated that waxing was not needed with their paints at that time and so far I have looked around their website and not able to find any info to see if that has changed, but I expect their recommendation still stands as not needed with their Urethane paints.

 

So far, what I have painted with PPG DCC paints, the look like they day I sprayed them and that is after 10-15yrs have gone by.

 

Price what paint, materials and labor would cost to repaint a vehicle.. then add in the extra costs associated with silicone poisoning of the paint.. Once a silicone has been embedded into the paint, it is nearly impossible to get rid well enough of in order to repaint.

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, ABear said:

... Clay baring is typically involved with that process towards the end of prep.. And yes, clay bar is and abrasive so each step does remove some paint...

I'm a big fan of using a clay bar. I don't know that I would use a clay bar on fresh paint, but on old paint, including clear coat finishes, it is amazing the difference it can make. Not only do you see the difference but you can feel a big difference in the paint after using a clay bar. It will make old paint as slick as a baby's butt and get it ready for a good coat of wax by removing contaminants on the surface of the paint that washing just can't remove. It's well worth taking the time to do it.

[Deadpurpledog]

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I'm a big fan of using a clay bar. I don't know that I would use a clay bar on fresh paint, but on old paint, including clear coat finishes, it is amazing the difference it can make. Not only do you see the difference but you can feel a big difference in the paint after using a clay bar. It will make old paint as slick as a baby's butt and get it ready for a good coat of wax by removing contaminants on the surface of the paint that washing just can't remove. It's well worth taking the time to do it.

Thanks Ronnie.  Trying to the best thing & your perspective is helpful.

[Deadpurpledog]

Wow. . .some things I didn’t know ABear.  Thank you!

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:48 AM, EmTee said:

I'd be leery of putting anything like a sealant over a fresh paint job.  I'd probably wait 3 to 6 months before doing anything.

As always, EmTee……..wise counsel.  Thank you!

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/14/2024 at 7:25 AM, vintage1 said:

On all my cars, vintage and new I always used Meguiar's carnauba wax. I purchased a new Porsche a couple of years ago and decided to try a DIY ceramic wax/coating. I have been disappointed in the results. After about 3 months water no longer beads off and there is no depth to the shine.  I went over the car with Meguiar's polish and then carnauba wax and the paint looks like it did in the showroom. This is just my personal opinion but I think I will stick with the old wax process.

 

Thanks Vintage1.  Seems as though many here prefer wax.  Do you feel it protects the finish from abrasions as much as ceramic?

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/14/2024 at 4:13 AM, prewarnut said:

There's two levels to consider. I use a nanoparticle sealant that is wiped on and then wiped off (on my modern cars). It lasts 6-8 months - far better than my best wax. It doesn't have a residue (i.e. no cleaning of emblems, trim, etc). What I use is made in Hungary and can't be easily purchased here but there are a few things on the market. Then there is the ceramic coating. That is generally professionally applied. it should last a year or more and provides a more tangible layer over the paint. This is what helps some cars to look like they are dipped in gloss, if you will. Both need good paint, ideally polished so no major orange peal. However this doesn't always look right on older cars never painted and polished this way. Also many modern cars don't "respond well" because you start to see all the imperfections near stampings like the gas filler flap, doors, emblems, complex creases the designer penned but didn't execute well.... Despite their high prices I've seen polishing and too high a gloss coating bring out imperfections on my Porsches and BMWs. I've seen this problem on Maserati, definitely GM products, Volvo....If you have a RR, Ferrari, Bentley you're all set. MB is up the middle these days. There's a ton to read about. I'd say no harm in the wipe on products. The sealants are DIY so you can simply try if you want. The ceramic coating can only be reversed by polishing off. Overall, the higher level of polishing and then going all the way to ceramic coating is where you can get reflections "hovering" over the layer of paint. It's hard to describe but if you see it in person with a discerning eye then you'll understand. I just about attain that with polishing and sealant so I stop there...
 

Thanks prewarnut.  What’s the name of your Hungarian product and from whom do you purchase, please?

[prewarnut]

I use Wolf's Chemicals. It used to be sold out of Canada or FL but I find it on Ebay from the Netherlands. There's others.

[TAKerry]

First time I have heard someone say to not wax a car and it will still look like new after 15 years? I must be doing something wrong!

 

Im no chemist but it seems like a lot of disinformation. Feel like Im reading msnbc!! Personally I dont think putting wax on a car is a bad thing, as much as I hate to do it. Last time I was at AutoZone they had so many products my head was spinning. Then again an entire industry dedicated to such my be wrong as well. I started with a clay bar a few years ago and that makes an incredible difference in the finish of a car. As far as silicone polluting the paint, it may but if a car needs repainted the top finishes should be stripped anyway, I highly doubt the silicone will soak through to the metal.

[EmTee]

11 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I started with a clay bar a few years ago and that makes an incredible difference in the finish of a car.

Me too.  It really seems to make the biggest visual difference with a finish that has been neglected.  That said, even on a well-maintained finish it's good to know that the surface is clean and you're not grinding contaminants deeper into the paint with your DA polisher. 

[Frank DuVal]

On 4/14/2024 at 11:48 AM, EmTee said:

I'd be leery of putting anything like a sealant over a fresh paint job.  I'd probably wait 3 to 6 months before doing anything.

And the paint manufacturer will confirm this! Paint needs to evaporate to cure, along with oxidizing and other reactions. Old paint recommendation was six months to a year.

[Deadpurpledog]

17 hours ago, prewarnut said:

I use Wolf's Chemicals. It used to be sold out of Canada or FL but I find it on Ebay from the Netherlands. There's others.

Thanks prewarnut!

[60FlatTop]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:27 AM, TAKerry said:

I started with a clay bar a few years ago and that makes an incredible difference in the finish of a car.

I like using a clay bar although many say it is an obsolete method with today's cleaners. The trick I learned was to put your hand in a plastic sandwich bag and feel the surface with your palm. Use the clay bar and test it after and repeat if there is still roughness. It's really smooth.

I prefer the old mix green Turtle Wax cream. I just bought four bottles of 1980s stock and the plastic bottles split in shipping. I transferred it to quart jars.

#M 3000 compound, clay bar, Turtle Wax, and the mentioned Black Ice does it for me. And I am still waltzing around at least once a week with Mother's spray wax to chase the dust away.

 

And I never use a hose and bucket on anything but whitewalls.