1941 Lincoln Continental Show Car - $120,000

[Leif in Calif]

I saw this title and figured it was a "full custom", but it seems it is a (hopefully correct) restoration. You have to go to the web site listed to actually see it (why?). I was not able to copy the pictures there. 

Concours win appears to be from 2001. 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/d/vancouver-1941-lncoln-continental-show/7734948170.html

To see the details on this remarkable show car view the website http://rohowell.com/lincoln/index.html The pictures on this ad were taken before the interior was installed to show the extent of preparation. Since website addresses are not "hot links" on craigslist it is necessary to copy and paste or type it in a web browser.

email:   52bcce3ef6fb3c5ead553260efba4c98@sale.craigslist.org

 

 

[classiclines]

Some pics- more at the URL in the ad...

 

[edinmass]

Im confused……how many Lincoln’s like that do you get for 120K? Four or five? 🤔
 

 

Obviously a nice car…….bit no clue as to the current market on them.

Edited April 7 by edinmass (see edit history)

[DavidinCA]

I looked at a decent coupe about 3 years ago and they wanted something in the upper teens for it. This one seems much nicer, so I’d say four.  How much does a Concours win over 20 years ago really mean now?

[alsancle]

A concours win last week means nothing. 
 

I actually feel bad when I see advertisements like this for such a nice car. A seller is going to be in for rude awakening, and will be very disappointed.  

Edited April 7 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The prices in these cars today are shockingly low. To the point I would own one if I tripped across one that was local to me. They are almost Model A or Model T money today for anything under 95 points. 

[1957Birdman]

This is the year car to have, IMO, before they went wild with the front chrome and bumper. Not being a drop-top hurts the value a lot. I guess the thought is you can always come down in price. Anyway, I think Sonny Corleone really liked his, before it became air conditioned.

Lew Bachman

1957 Thunderbird

[58L-Y8]

This Continental has been advertised at this price for at least five years that I know of.   With a high survival rate because they were being widely collected even as used cars, benefitting from active club support in the LCOC, the oversupply versus demand has arrived.

[John Bloom]

I’m always mildly curious when I see an ad like this at how the seller would respond if you showed up with 20 comps in the last two years (and that is realistic considering how many you see) and didn’t throw out the high or the low, the actual sale prices and showed mean, mode, groupings, one standard deviation above or below that.....plot it out,  and told him that an analysis would put his car at $21,000. 
 

does he just grin at you with some insane clockwork Orange look? Get angry and tell you you’re an idiot? Or stare in disbelief and say “I had no idea”?

 

I can only feel sorry for him if it’s option number three. 
 

 

[DavidinCA]

How are those to drive.  I’ve heard a lot of negative things about the 12 in them, but is it a case of most were never properly sorted or is the engine just not great.  It seems like in the 50’s a swap to and OHV Cadillac or Olds V8 was the thing to do, but was that more a case of there not being interest in preserving the authenticity of what was then an old car?  

 

I’ll admit that the idea of a Continental with a 50s Cadillac V8 conversion done in the period seems like it would be kind of fun, but I might be the only one who thinks that way.

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I’m always mildly curious when I see an ad like this at how the seller would respond if you showed up with 20 comps in the last two years (and that is realistic considering how many you see) and didn’t throw out the high or the low, the actual sale prices and showed mean, mode, groupings, one standard deviation above or below that.....plot it out,  and told him that an analysis would put his car at $21,000. 
 

does he just grin at you with some insane clockwork Orange look? Get angry and tell you you’re an idiot? Or stare in disbelief and say “I had no idea”?

 

I can only feel sorry for him if it’s option number three. 
 

 

It's always option #3.

 

I looked at this and expected to at least see a convertible. Six figures for a coupe is lunacy.

[m-mman]

“Sir your car isn’t worth anything close to what you are asking”

will garner the same response as:

“Sir you are worshipping a false god and your beliefs are all wrong”

 

They BELIEVE that their car is worth their asking price because…..well, they believe that it is.  You are never going to convince them otherwise. It is a waste of time and energy to do anything else. 
 

Eventually only the courts (divorce, bankruptcy, probate) can convince them of the actual market value. 

Edited April 8 by m-mman (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

3 hours ago, DavidinCA said:

How are those to drive.  I’ve heard a lot of negative things about the 12 in them, but is it a case of most were never properly sorted or is the engine just not great.  It seems like in the 50’s a swap to and OHV Cadillac or Olds V8 was the thing to do, but was that more a case of there not being interest in preserving the authenticity of what was then an old car?  

 

I’ll admit that the idea of a Continental with a 50s Cadillac V8 conversion done in the period seems like it would be kind of fun, but I might be the only one who thinks that way.

Here are some perspectives on the H-Series Lincoln V-12 from earlier discussions we've had regarding these Lincolns:

 

Matt129:

You might find our prior conversations regarding the 1940-'48 Lincoln Continentals, and the source of their powertrains, the concurrent Lincoln-Zephyrs, informative before making your decision.

 

H-Series v-12 Lincoln-Zephyr sales motivations and functional problems

 At the time the Lincoln-Zephyr was being developed, the luxury Lincoln K's were V-12's exclusively.  The Ford V8 was a major sales element in its success, ergo the Lincoln-Zephyr would have a V-12 because that is what was basic to the make.  Unhappily, the basic engine architecture was little more than a Ford flathead V8 with four cylinders added.   It was a relatively small bore 2.75 X short stroke 3.75 engine in an era of larger bore/long stroke engines that generated plenty of torque at low rpms.  Buyers in that price segment were used to 'lugging' their long-stroke engines using the generous torque to motivate the car without shifting as much in heavy traffic.  The L-Z V-12 needed to be kept revved up to generate enough torque, did not tolerate lugging well.  The worst design drawbacks were the exhaust ports through the block to the lower outsides as was Ford flathead V8 practice causing hot spots in adjacent cylinder walls and transferring huge amounts of exhaust heat into the cooling system.   The fan was mounted on the front of the crankshaft, too low to affective cool the engine under adverse conditions.  The low, horizontal grilles configuration of the 1938 Lincoln-Zephyr came about as a partial solution to the cooling problems.  That the change caused a styling sensation that swept the industry to low, horizontal grilles within a few seasons was simply a serendipitous result.

Further
Response by m-mman

"The #1 problem with Lincoln Zephyrs and Continentals was buyers (new, used and collector) expecting them to be something that they were not and were never proven or designed to be. When you accept them for what they are, accepting their failings and not demanding more from them than they were designed to give, they are fine cars. 

FYI - all the kinks and problems in the V-12 that were common and unsolvable in the 10–20-year-old examples that existed in the 50s & 60s have been worked out by enthusiasts today. "

My further response:
Continentals remained so popular after the end of the 1948 production, according to an N.A.D.A Used Car Guide for April 1953, the pre-war models still were retail priced over $200 comparable to the '40 Cadillac 62 convertible.  Cadillac convertibles were the 'gold standard' for used luxury cars both pre and postwar.  Continental retail prices were often more than twice the concurrent Zephyr convertibles.
For 1953, a five-year-old Continental cabriolet, ($4746 new) in April 1953 still commanded $1195 retail.  From comparable contemporaries: a 1948 Chrysler Town & Country convertible ($3395 new) was $1045; a Packard Super Eight convertible ($3250 new) priced $1145; the Custom Eight convertible ($4295 new) only $1125; while the 'gold standard' choice 1948 Cadillac 62 convertible ($3442 new) was $1755 retail.  While the Continental and Packard Custom Eight suffered the worse depreciation, only the Continental remained popular and in demand thereafter.
As a teenager, I was quite smitten with the 1940's Lincoln Continentals, tracked those that appeared for sale in the Buffalo Evening News "Antiques and Classics" column during the 1960's.  While I was impressed with the idea of a V-12, my father who was familiar with the deficits that beset the H-Series V-12 Lincoln Zephyrs and Continentals began my education about those cars.  Soon, I noticed most of the used Continentals listed were advertised with Olds or Cadillac OHV V8 powerplants.  Pursuing a 'well-used' 1940 Lincoln Continental cabriolet last used by a University of Buffalo student with an Olds engine, the knowledgeable owner filled me in on the details of why the engine swaps were so common.

 

Further my earlier comments on the 1942-'48 styling:

 

Your impression of the mishmash of styling is correct.   Although it was E.T. Gregorie and his small styling department under Edsel Ford that created Ford Motor Company styling from the early 1930's through the immediate postwar years, they were responding to the major change in styling theme lead by the 1941 Cadillac.   The prow-fronted, low-grilled 1938 Lincoln-Zephyr had led and influenced styling throughout the industry.  It was a clean, lithe ethic with delicate trim, the 1940 Lincoln-Zephyr and Continental were designed with that ethic. 
But, Harley Earl had been building the GM Art and Color into the industry leading styling powerhouse, wasn't about to allow that upstart Lincoln-Zephyr to take the lead for long.  Along comes the elegant, Streamline Moderne 1941 Cadillac design with its broad, blunt front and heavy, cast jewelry trim.  His idea was a car should be entertaining to the eye as one walked around it: wind-splits, crests, rich details everywhere one looked.  The change took hold for 1941 across all GM nameplates.  

Whatever GM presented, the industry took notice and emulated it.  Gregorie and Edsel Ford immediately responded with the restyled 1942 cars, all with an interpretation of the new styling direction.  The dramatic change shows most in the 1941 and 1942 Lincolns, they look like they're from different planets.   The Lincoln-Zephyr had just received a new body for 1940 and within Ford Motor Company, Lincoln was Edsel Ford's baby, largely peripheral to business which was all about Ford cars and trucks.    When Edsel died in 1943, Lincoln was adrift without its champion.  Only E.T. Gregorie was left to carry the Lincoln flag, though as a stylist, his influence was minimal.   Although he and the styling department had developed Lincolns for follow-up the 1940 model bodies, the critical situation that Ford Motor Company was in became acute.   The best he could do for the 1946-'48 models was to apply the heavy, chrome die-cast grille and trim to the hold-over 1940 bodied designed with the prior theme in mind. 

 

Comments regarding the 'birth' of the Lincoln Continental:

 

The 'birth' of the Continental was a purely serendipitous series of events.   Initially never intended for a production model, the pure aesthetic power of the proportions and design propelled it into production based on the enthusiastic reactions and requests for a production version from Edsel's contemporaries when they viewed his 'Special Zephyr convertible'.   Coinciding with these early 1938 events, Edsel was watching the Lincoln K slowly dying in the market while the Lincoln-Zephyr was proving the marque's salvation.  While Edsel's prior custom personal cars had been based on the Ford V8, such disruption would not be tolerated in the high-volume world of the Ford plants.  Fortuitously, the Lincoln-Zephyr platform presented no issue in that regards, also fit the upscale clientele to which the car would appeal.  
As Lincoln K production ground to a halt, the Lincoln body shop had legions of skilled body craftsman who could be put to work building the Continental bodies.  For the 1940 model run, they were built from literally modified Zephyr panel stampings; shaped, welded and lead finished largely by hand.  For 1941, some low-volume stamping dies were brought into the process, though there still was a good deal of handwork applied to assembly and finishing.   The Lincoln Continental was just what was needed to keep the Lincoln marque in the public eye, help it survive a precarious time.
 

The Zephyr and Continental saved Lincoln from oblivion as the demand for the grandiose Lincoln Model K withered away to nothing. The Zephyr, with its underdeveloped and troublesome H-Series V-12, wasn’t really up to the job but all Edsel had to work with. Fortuitously, he had E.T. Gregorie’s major talent to lend the Zephyr first then Continental refined styling finesse not available elsewhere in the market. To say styling carried Lincoln in those years is to make understatement.
 

1940-1948 Lincoln Continental Genesis

 The Ford Styling department, led by E.T. Gregorie, was a refuge for urbane, cultured Edsel Ford from his tyrannical and increasing paranoid father and his henchmen as the 1930's wore on. Edsel had had custom-bodied specials built on Ford chassis periodically, another was in order for 1938-'39. This time, the Lincoln-Zephyr platform would be the basis. Edsel and E.T. had ongoing discussions of styling and the current trends here and aboard, European custom coachbuilders a real influence. Edsel visited the major European auto shows annually, no doubt returned with a trunk full of promotional materials.

In discussions of what the latest special was to be, Edsel only specified it be 'continental' in theme and proportions. That left the design to the talented Gregorie to create. In oral recollections, he related that he took a vellum side elevation drawing of a '38 Lincoln-Zephyr sedan to trace over, in one half hour that inspired design developed: lowered, long hood, low belt-line, close-coupled passenger compartment utilizing the blind-quartered cabriolet top, short boxed trunk, deleted running boards, pontoon fenders, cleaned of extraneous trim. When Edsel saw the drawing, he was instantly smitten,told Gregorie not to change a line, take it to the Lincoln in-house custom body shop to see how soon it could be built. Production of the Lincoln K was staggering to a close, the shop had plenty of skilled metalworkers who were available to literally hammer out the body panels.

Initially, the plan was to build only the one-off special, that was to be shipped to Hobe Sound, Florida by March 1939 for Edsel's vacation.  Upon the car appearing to Edsel's wealthy contemporaries, the reception was enthusiastic, with multiple request for additional copies. Edsel was surprised by the interest it generated but also realized the potential it represented, ordered a second special built ostensibly for his sons but also as an engineering prototype. Throughout 1939. the idea developed these special Zephyr convertibles would be a good addition to the line. Gregorie developed the styling based on what would become the new Lincoln-Zephyrs for 1940. As mentioned, Lincoln Twelve K was drawing to a close, Edsel saw the special convertibles were an opportunity to keep the skilled craftsmen building the bodies. There were no volume tools and dies for the first year, all bodies are hand-formed, welded and leaded.

Think of it, in contrast to our era of computer-aided automotive design, one talented man drew on his knowledge and experience to develop a timeless design with only the impetus that the inspiration be 'continental' in theme. No endless design reviews, no focus group feedback sessions, no market research to determine viable volume interest, just the efforts of two men of taste and vision.
 

I hope some of this will inform your outlook and assist your purchase decision.

Steve
 

[DavidinCA]

Thank you for a very thorough summary, it is really helpful.  It sounds like if you drive it as you would other big cars of the era, basically as a 1-speed transmission, it won’t do terribly well, but shifting as one might a relatively modern car would make a world of difference.  

 

Have you ever driven an OHV conversion?  I assume most of them are Hydramatic as well, but that would, at least to me, lessen the appeal.   I know this isn’t a modified car group, but to me there is something different about a conversion done in the 50s.  Kind of like a Studillac is interesting in its own right.